EK's Arbitrary 55t Requirement
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Praise Jebus,
Yes you're right. Things have constantly changed here just like it has in most airlines around the world. How could we possibly be so dumb as to accept a job offer under those conditions??? We should have known better and stayed in whatever jobs we were in so that we wouldn't be here complaining about how unfair it is. Believe it or not, I actually don't complain and in this case I'm simply stating the fact (for it is a fact regardless of how you twist it) that this new-ish rule is UNFAIR.
As I wrote in a previous post I understand that things change here and I do accept that although I do not have to agree with all of it. In addition this extreme change only came about after MEL and there is no way that any of us could have foreseen the MEL event and the fallout from it when we joined. There is absolutely no way to take ALL things into consideration when you make the decision to accept. Now we're here and like I said earlier; we suck it up and do our jobs to the best of our abilities...
Now if you can tell me a good way of reasoning that makes the 55T change "fair" (or if you can come up with a better word then unfair) for those of us who were here before the rule was invented then I'm all ears.
Wizofoz: It was not in the FOM and it is not in the OM-A as of yet but the latest update to the FCI states that it will be written in to the OM-A in the next revision.
Flyer1015: As for your 55T question the answer is yes. No idea about the 30T "rule" although I hear it is very loosely enforced...
Yes you're right. Things have constantly changed here just like it has in most airlines around the world. How could we possibly be so dumb as to accept a job offer under those conditions??? We should have known better and stayed in whatever jobs we were in so that we wouldn't be here complaining about how unfair it is. Believe it or not, I actually don't complain and in this case I'm simply stating the fact (for it is a fact regardless of how you twist it) that this new-ish rule is UNFAIR.
As I wrote in a previous post I understand that things change here and I do accept that although I do not have to agree with all of it. In addition this extreme change only came about after MEL and there is no way that any of us could have foreseen the MEL event and the fallout from it when we joined. There is absolutely no way to take ALL things into consideration when you make the decision to accept. Now we're here and like I said earlier; we suck it up and do our jobs to the best of our abilities...
Now if you can tell me a good way of reasoning that makes the 55T change "fair" (or if you can come up with a better word then unfair) for those of us who were here before the rule was invented then I'm all ears.
Wizofoz: It was not in the FOM and it is not in the OM-A as of yet but the latest update to the FCI states that it will be written in to the OM-A in the next revision.
Flyer1015: As for your 55T question the answer is yes. No idea about the 30T "rule" although I hear it is very loosely enforced...
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So,
-2000 hours of 30t to join
- ? hours of ?t to get the 340
-2000 hours of 55t to get the 380?
-4000 hours of 55t to get command?
Is that all
or did I simplify that a bit too much?
I wonder what the 748 requirements will be.
-2000 hours of 30t to join
- ? hours of ?t to get the 340
-2000 hours of 55t to get the 380?
-4000 hours of 55t to get command?
Is that all
or did I simplify that a bit too much?I wonder what the 748 requirements will be.
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I think it is fair to say that the relatively bad experience EK had with people off so called little and classic aircraft was more to do with their training system being almost totally geared towards already rated glass-cockpit pilots.
So the 55T is probably more to do with training deficiencies than anything else
So the 55T is probably more to do with training deficiencies than anything else
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Would it make you feel better if they said A319/B737ng or bigger? This is just a tool to sort the CV's. If you don't have the time too bad for now. SAI wanted 3000 command time if I only had 2000 should they change it for me? I hate to say it but deal with it!Move on ,next?
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Will, I sympathise with you if the rule has affected you, but only so much. The question of fairness in any business in the ME is irrelevant. At EK a few guys get together once a week in a plush office and decide the rules, do you think any of them stop and say, "hang on a minute, that rule will be a bit unfair to FO Will Rogers, lets not do it"? No shareholders, no board of directors or onions to answer to. Not the same as the airlines around the world you refer to. Its what gives them the edge. And we have to realise that the process will involve shaftings from time to time. In 2000 GF went swimming with a 320 and for a brief period, in response to it, required hrs for command at EK went to 9000. And it wasn't even our accident... Reactions to incidents have and will continue at EK just as they will also continue to defy reason. Yet when guys arrive and their conditions change, its described as "unfair" and "absolutely ridiculous" . In truth they are, but they are also absolutely predictable. Buyer beware.
IF they insist on discrimination based on previous type, we should remember that "Size doesn''t matter".
Judging experience based on the MTOW of the aircraft is ludicrous.
What counts a LOT more is:-
1)The technological similarity of the previous type to an Emirates type.
2) The SOPs previously used
and
3) How many sectors they have flown, and where to!
Having flown an FMC equipped Boeing or ANY airbus, having operated under JAR or similar rules, and having done a shed load of sectors are all more important than having flown something big.
Steely recently stated at a training meeting that they have not had one failure of a pilot coming from a European LOCO, while guys coming with thousands of hours on Classic 747s have struggled.
Judging experience based on the MTOW of the aircraft is ludicrous.
What counts a LOT more is:-
1)The technological similarity of the previous type to an Emirates type.
2) The SOPs previously used
and
3) How many sectors they have flown, and where to!
Having flown an FMC equipped Boeing or ANY airbus, having operated under JAR or similar rules, and having done a shed load of sectors are all more important than having flown something big.
Steely recently stated at a training meeting that they have not had one failure of a pilot coming from a European LOCO, while guys coming with thousands of hours on Classic 747s have struggled.
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WizofOz,
What I meant was there are entry requirement rules which I could not meet due to my circumstance (personal or not).
I dont meet Virgin atlantics entry requirements (type rated on 744 or airbus)
I passed Emirates and start soon. Is it kicking off there yet?
What I meant was there are entry requirement rules which I could not meet due to my circumstance (personal or not).
I dont meet Virgin atlantics entry requirements (type rated on 744 or airbus)
I passed Emirates and start soon. Is it kicking off there yet?
eager,
If by "Kicking off" you mean some form of pro-democracy demonstration, hell yes!!
103 intellectuals and eminent Emiraties sent a politely worded letter to the UAE Government, requesting they consider some minor reforms....
SO-VIVA LES REVOLUTION!!!!
No mate, there will not be any unrest here. UAE Citizens are QUITE content with their lot in life!!!
If by "Kicking off" you mean some form of pro-democracy demonstration, hell yes!!
103 intellectuals and eminent Emiraties sent a politely worded letter to the UAE Government, requesting they consider some minor reforms....
SO-VIVA LES REVOLUTION!!!!
No mate, there will not be any unrest here. UAE Citizens are QUITE content with their lot in life!!!
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Much like the guys that got upset about the DEWA cap, the limit to days off in a row and the change in the productivity threshold etc, etc. should all have seen it coming so what were they thinking when they complained about that? 
I'm not asking for sympathy, I'm am only stating the fact that the implementation of the rule was done in an unfair (getting to be a big word here) manner. I have said again and again that I understand that there always have been and always will be changes that affect us in a negative way as that is how it works down here. Like I've also said that I accept that I have to live with that but it doesn't stop me from having the right to say I don't like it. If you were to look at the "real" world one would think that they would have used "grandfather rights" for people that joined before. Much like they should have done when the changed the other conditions in our contracts. Now you, I and everyone else know that will never happen down here. Again, a fact of life in the desert.
As for the special treatment you are referring to I never said I should be treated differently from all the rest and I wouldn't expect any company in the world to make rulings based on the effect it may have on one person. This has affected A LOT of people though and I would not be surprised if a certain nationality, which represents a lot of these people, saw a huge decrease in numbers once the market opens up a bit more (which it is already starting to do). So maybe they should "stop and say, "hang on a minute, that rule will be a bit unfair" as it will result in a lot of guys potentially leaving which would affect the airline in a negative way. I know; that's also not gonna happen!
All I said was that I think EVERYONE should be give a fair chance. 55T experience or not. That's my view anyway...
As I don't know how long you have been here it's hard to figure out how many changes you have gone through but I'm sure that you haven't agreed with all of them and that you've felt like you have been treated unfairly once or twice!? I sincerely hope that you always look in the mirror and tell yourself: tough! should have seen that coming, let's move along now.
As for what type of aircraft (or what weight for that matter) I agree with Wizofoz 100%. There is nothing to say that you are better qualified because it was bigger or heavier. A lot of the "small jets" out there are a lot better equipped then the archaic stuff we fly around. There are also quite a few of them that have more or less the same range that many of the EK airplanes and as a result the operations do not differ that much apart from the number of passengers carried.
That's about all I have to say for myself on that subject so I'm gonna disregard fatbus comments apart from the last one and "move on" and enjoy my life here in sunny Dubai.
Happy flying!
I'm not asking for sympathy, I'm am only stating the fact that the implementation of the rule was done in an unfair (getting to be a big word here) manner. I have said again and again that I understand that there always have been and always will be changes that affect us in a negative way as that is how it works down here. Like I've also said that I accept that I have to live with that but it doesn't stop me from having the right to say I don't like it. If you were to look at the "real" world one would think that they would have used "grandfather rights" for people that joined before. Much like they should have done when the changed the other conditions in our contracts. Now you, I and everyone else know that will never happen down here. Again, a fact of life in the desert.
As for the special treatment you are referring to I never said I should be treated differently from all the rest and I wouldn't expect any company in the world to make rulings based on the effect it may have on one person. This has affected A LOT of people though and I would not be surprised if a certain nationality, which represents a lot of these people, saw a huge decrease in numbers once the market opens up a bit more (which it is already starting to do). So maybe they should "stop and say, "hang on a minute, that rule will be a bit unfair" as it will result in a lot of guys potentially leaving which would affect the airline in a negative way. I know; that's also not gonna happen!
All I said was that I think EVERYONE should be give a fair chance. 55T experience or not. That's my view anyway...
As I don't know how long you have been here it's hard to figure out how many changes you have gone through but I'm sure that you haven't agreed with all of them and that you've felt like you have been treated unfairly once or twice!? I sincerely hope that you always look in the mirror and tell yourself: tough! should have seen that coming, let's move along now.
As for what type of aircraft (or what weight for that matter) I agree with Wizofoz 100%. There is nothing to say that you are better qualified because it was bigger or heavier. A lot of the "small jets" out there are a lot better equipped then the archaic stuff we fly around. There are also quite a few of them that have more or less the same range that many of the EK airplanes and as a result the operations do not differ that much apart from the number of passengers carried.
That's about all I have to say for myself on that subject so I'm gonna disregard fatbus comments apart from the last one and "move on" and enjoy my life here in sunny Dubai.
Happy flying!
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Steely recently stated at a training meeting that they have not had one failure of a pilot coming from a European LOCO, while guys coming with thousands of hours on Classic 747s have struggled.
So if you are going to set a silly 55t rule then you better expand on it, giving a bit more credit to previous command and/or heavy experience. That would be more equitable to the parties involved and advantages to the company.
But, that is just my opinion
....OR just accept that, regardless of previous experience, some will and some won't cut it, so either give everyone a go and let them pass or fail, OR attempt to judge guys capability based on actual performance and testing, not hours in the book...
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You just don"t get it!
I don't know how many 100's of times I've read over the past 6 years individuals complaining how "unfair" something is at Emirates.
While I truly empathize with your (and other f/o's personal situations), I truly cannot get it into my head how naive you complainers were to come here and expect something different to what you are getting. The EK history of disregarding contracts, moving goal posts, and continually degrading terms and conditions is EXCEEDING WELL DOCUMENTED ON THIS FORUM over the past 6+ years.
The reality is EK/Al-Redha/Steely/etc don't give a s#it about your aviation career, don't give a s#it about your family, don't give a s#it about your long term health and don't give a s#it about your financial future. All they care about is being able to recruit "bums in seats" to move their shiny machines from point A to point B to grease the EK money making machine and in the process collect their SUBSTANTIAL personal bonus and benefits. Nothing more/nothing less.
You "doe-eyed" saps deserve what you get, as do those who are joining even today to swell the ranks of the future EK disenchanted. The only ones who should come here are those who understood that NOTHING is fair in this company. Fair was thrown out the window when you signed your contract.
You will be treated with as much (or as little) respect as they deem fit to give you. Terms and conditions, career progression and quality of life will strictly be determined by MARKET FORCES. If they can recruit cheap DEC's when required; they will. If they can attract high hour experience f/o's with a mediocre package; they will. If they need to reduce hour requirements to keep the mediocre package in place; they will. The idea is to push it to the limit of maximizing profit while just staying on the "right" side of not killing someone in a crash. It is all driven to that end.
Time to grow up girls and face facts. Nuff said.
While I truly empathize with your (and other f/o's personal situations), I truly cannot get it into my head how naive you complainers were to come here and expect something different to what you are getting. The EK history of disregarding contracts, moving goal posts, and continually degrading terms and conditions is EXCEEDING WELL DOCUMENTED ON THIS FORUM over the past 6+ years.
The reality is EK/Al-Redha/Steely/etc don't give a s#it about your aviation career, don't give a s#it about your family, don't give a s#it about your long term health and don't give a s#it about your financial future. All they care about is being able to recruit "bums in seats" to move their shiny machines from point A to point B to grease the EK money making machine and in the process collect their SUBSTANTIAL personal bonus and benefits. Nothing more/nothing less.
You "doe-eyed" saps deserve what you get, as do those who are joining even today to swell the ranks of the future EK disenchanted. The only ones who should come here are those who understood that NOTHING is fair in this company. Fair was thrown out the window when you signed your contract.
You will be treated with as much (or as little) respect as they deem fit to give you. Terms and conditions, career progression and quality of life will strictly be determined by MARKET FORCES. If they can recruit cheap DEC's when required; they will. If they can attract high hour experience f/o's with a mediocre package; they will. If they need to reduce hour requirements to keep the mediocre package in place; they will. The idea is to push it to the limit of maximizing profit while just staying on the "right" side of not killing someone in a crash. It is all driven to that end.
Time to grow up girls and face facts. Nuff said.
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Over the summer I corresponded with M.T.....He actually e-mailed me first. Asking if I had anything over 30T. I unfortunately did not.
So unless things have changed since this summer, the 30T limit for FO's still exhists..
Has anyone heard any different lately?
Thnaks
So unless things have changed since this summer, the 30T limit for FO's still exhists..
Has anyone heard any different lately?
Thnaks
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he reality is EK/Al-Redha/Steely/etc don't give a s#it about your aviation career, don't give a s#it about your family, don't give a s#it about your long term health and don't give a s#it about your financial future. All they care about is being able to recruit "bums in seats" to move their shiny machines from point A to point B to grease the EK money making machine and in the process collect their SUBSTANTIAL personal bonus and benefits. Nothing more/nothing less.
You "doe-eyed" saps deserve what you get, as do those who are joining even today to swell the ranks of the future EK disenchanted. The only ones who should come here are those who understood that NOTHING is fair in this company. Fair was thrown out the window when you signed your contract.
You will be treated with as much (or as little) respect as they deem fit to give you. Terms and conditions, career progression and quality of life will strictly be determined by MARKET FORCES. If they can recruit cheap DEC's when required; they will. If they can attract high hour experience f/o's with a mediocre package; they will. If they need to reduce hour requirements to keep the mediocre package in place; they will. The idea is to push it to the limit of maximizing profit while just staying on the "right" side of not killing someone in a crash. It is all driven to that end.
You "doe-eyed" saps deserve what you get, as do those who are joining even today to swell the ranks of the future EK disenchanted. The only ones who should come here are those who understood that NOTHING is fair in this company. Fair was thrown out the window when you signed your contract.
You will be treated with as much (or as little) respect as they deem fit to give you. Terms and conditions, career progression and quality of life will strictly be determined by MARKET FORCES. If they can recruit cheap DEC's when required; they will. If they can attract high hour experience f/o's with a mediocre package; they will. If they need to reduce hour requirements to keep the mediocre package in place; they will. The idea is to push it to the limit of maximizing profit while just staying on the "right" side of not killing someone in a crash. It is all driven to that end.
This thread sums up EK pilots pretty well. Fellas in the company complaining that a change happened that screws them over, (but this change is of course different to all the changes that they were warned of before they joined, as those changes screwed someone else!); and those on the outside still bleating that their wonder jets are not considered manly enough for them to join and also be extra screwed by the gripe of the original topic.
If guys are complaining that having time on stuff under 55t screws your career progression, why would you be bleating that they will not take you with your sub 30t time? Is big and shiny really that important?
the don
If guys are complaining that having time on stuff under 55t screws your career progression, why would you be bleating that they will not take you with your sub 30t time? Is big and shiny really that important?
the don