Lufthansa and Emirates ......
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These megalomaniacal expansion plans may be a source of pride in the Gulf region, in the rest of the world they are viewed with the deepest suspicion
On a less sarcastic note: Let's wait for a nicely timed announcement, at any big airshow, of the three ME carriers that they cancel some x-hundred AB and B products. All this due to the inability to effectively use the birds.
Let us listen to the complaints of the then to be furloughed workers.
If you sell products for profit, you must consider them being used. Even in your neighborhood. Or people will stop buying them.
And when the product is moving people and stuff from, let's call it "A", to lets call it "B", surely the position of the hub (lets call it "D") may be simply a natural advantage, untouched by politics or greed.
South African steak is great becaus South Africa is a great place to raise a cow. The ME is a great place to found an airline, because it's a great strategic place for an Airline to BE.
South African steak is great becaus South Africa is a great place to raise a cow. The ME is a great place to found an airline, because it's a great strategic place for an Airline to BE.
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Hi pool.
Sorry, but I don't think Coke and McDonalds are good comparisons. Both are publicly owned companies. Second, Coke is bottled regionally profiting the same boss you work for, as well as MCD being a franchise, each also owned locally. Further, both companies were not trying to break down the door to sweep their respective industries regionally. They grew naturally, and more accurately, at the behest and request of the men who own this land. because, if you build it they will come.
It would also be interesting to point out that these companies were intelligent enough not to build franchises or bottlers locally until they had license to do so.
Regarding buying product: of course boeing/ airbus would expect you to fly their new AC, but it's not really their business. They build and sell. airbus cannot grant landing rights in Germany any more than I could. If I sell you my lawn mower, it doesn't give you the right to cut my grass.
Sorry, but I don't think Coke and McDonalds are good comparisons. Both are publicly owned companies. Second, Coke is bottled regionally profiting the same boss you work for, as well as MCD being a franchise, each also owned locally. Further, both companies were not trying to break down the door to sweep their respective industries regionally. They grew naturally, and more accurately, at the behest and request of the men who own this land. because, if you build it they will come.
It would also be interesting to point out that these companies were intelligent enough not to build franchises or bottlers locally until they had license to do so.
Regarding buying product: of course boeing/ airbus would expect you to fly their new AC, but it's not really their business. They build and sell. airbus cannot grant landing rights in Germany any more than I could. If I sell you my lawn mower, it doesn't give you the right to cut my grass.
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@WK
What IS the reason you are "ex that"??
I left LH after 20 years because I was kind of bored with the routine and wanted to see something else, just that simple.
Of course I came with a plan B unlike all the others who got stuck here
But I didn't take the advise of my boss to do what everybody else does at EK: "keep your a$$ covered and be happy with the paycheck at the end of the month". I started to very much dislike life at EK and Dubai and because I am a very outspoken person AAR was soon pressing my VP to fire me, so I thought it was time to leave that $h!t hole and execute plan B.
Now I've executed plan C and retired completely from aviation, all that just because I simply can.
But I have a lot of time in semi-retirement and I chose to hang around on this fascinating forum just because I simply like to, iPhone works fine on the beach!...unlike others who seem to use this forum a LOT (between their busy flying schedule, family and whatever private life they have left) to constantly show they only got a plan A...
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Some valid arguments. Everyone wants to save and improve the world. But the other one has to start first ....
We saw how dearly this was to our companies and politicians during the crisis after 9/11. We don't need EK to destroy jobs, Swissair, Sabena, LTU et al were brilliant examples of SELF destruction. By the way, at that time the public, press and politicians told the furloughed pilots to look after themselves, that there were opportunities out there and they should not burden the social security system. They've done just that, with kids and wife and dog, and now face being told not to fly too much to the former home soil, not to endanger the former colleagues. - Hypocritical.
B and AB might only produce and sell. Maybe in your world they do not lobby and influence politics as heavily as possible to do so, but in reality its interwoven to a huge degree. I agree it's the government who acts in their interest by helping sales around the world, but then they help their airline to inhibit these sales competing with them. - Hypocritical.
By the way, both companies are heavily subsidized and therefore the public, via representatives, is so much involved, that the pure "selling" argument is somewhat oblivious. Those subsidies are also never brought up when the West blames the "subsidized ME airlines". I guess it's same, same but different, not - Hypocritical.
Take for instance the sugar trade. We sell Africa (and South America) the processing equipment for sugar cane. At the same time we export heavily subsidized sugar to these countries and destroy their industry (same goes for poultry). There are some embargoes for foreign sugar into some western countries, to protect the own industry, although much less cost effective, saying we must uphold self sufficiency. All bullocks and highly unfair, admitted but no one cares. - Hypocritical as well.
We can turn round and round with arguments and will find enough for both points of view, agreed.
EK/EY will have 28 weekly flights into ZRH/DXB, Swiss 7 into DXB. Swiss however does remakably well, even better than its parent LH. Why? They have restructured and have a very competitive product. They do not count bean for bean and might see their own advantage of better overall connectivity, for the airline and for the economy.
pool
It also means good paid, well regulated jobs in the European countries of the competitors are destroyed, companies who are important to the well being of real countries with real rights, real development and a real working local population.
Regarding buying product: of course boeing/ airbus would expect you to fly their new AC, but it's not really their business. They build and sell. airbus cannot grant landing rights in Germany any more than I could. If I sell you my lawn mower, it doesn't give you the right to cut my grass.
By the way, both companies are heavily subsidized and therefore the public, via representatives, is so much involved, that the pure "selling" argument is somewhat oblivious. Those subsidies are also never brought up when the West blames the "subsidized ME airlines". I guess it's same, same but different, not - Hypocritical.
Take for instance the sugar trade. We sell Africa (and South America) the processing equipment for sugar cane. At the same time we export heavily subsidized sugar to these countries and destroy their industry (same goes for poultry). There are some embargoes for foreign sugar into some western countries, to protect the own industry, although much less cost effective, saying we must uphold self sufficiency. All bullocks and highly unfair, admitted but no one cares. - Hypocritical as well.
We can turn round and round with arguments and will find enough for both points of view, agreed.
EK/EY will have 28 weekly flights into ZRH/DXB, Swiss 7 into DXB. Swiss however does remakably well, even better than its parent LH. Why? They have restructured and have a very competitive product. They do not count bean for bean and might see their own advantage of better overall connectivity, for the airline and for the economy.
pool
Last edited by pool; 18th Jan 2011 at 02:30.
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And Swiss does remarkably well! Why?
btw. an main reason they went bankrupt was because they didn't want to join any Alliance...
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btw. an main reason they went bankrupt was because they didn't want to join any Alliance...
And if that's so, then why the fear of Emirates? Why the protectionist measures? They do not want to join an alliance, therefore, following your argument, they will soon go bankrupt.
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o.k. consequences: Swiss is now a well functioning part of the LH Group and the Star Alliance. A lot of pilots/employees got employed by LH based on the negotiations for the take over.
EK, EY and QR dont need an Alliance as they are in an Alliance with their governments, something not allowed due to the competition laws elsewhere!
They wouldn't get away with their "business model" in any civilized country!
IMHO EK and EY are going to be in an Alliance sooner or later if they are de facto not already are!
I cannot prove any of that but looking at the way business is done in the UAE it should be easy cover that with some of the usual "creative bookkeeping"
After all this is a rumour network, isn't it?
EK, EY and QR dont need an Alliance as they are in an Alliance with their governments, something not allowed due to the competition laws elsewhere!
They wouldn't get away with their "business model" in any civilized country!
IMHO EK and EY are going to be in an Alliance sooner or later if they are de facto not already are!
I cannot prove any of that but looking at the way business is done in the UAE it should be easy cover that with some of the usual "creative bookkeeping"
After all this is a rumour network, isn't it?
Free trade should produce benefits to everyone, in the sense of competition and new ideas / products, more efficient production processes, therefore cheaper prices and DEVELOPMENT and wealth increase for the local population.
Does anything of these things happen when EK expands at the cost of an established European carrier?
NO!
Does anything of these things happen when EK expands at the cost of an established European carrier?
NO!
EK provides development to many people from many countries. For countries like Indonesia and the Phillipoines, expat labour who repatriate funds are one of their biggest foreign currency industries. EK is an enourmous employer of such people both directley, and through it's contribution to the overall Dubai ecconomy.
EK is not doing any of this at the expense of European carriers, as it can do things the Europeans simply can't do. Is Lufthansa going to provide a direct service Cochin to Munich? Karrachi to Hamburg? Of course not, there isn't anything like to traffic. But by having a stratigically placed hub, EK provides a one-stop service between these points.
Yes, ME carriers (as well of the carriers in other developing regions) have an advantage in labour costs. But when Lufthansa or BA turn-around in these places, guess which baggage loaders, refuelers and cleaners they contract to and guess how much they pay them? Do they give them a premium out of conscience, or pay the going rate?
Seems "exploitation" is ok if you're exploiting someone in a foreign country, just not in your own, and Coke and McDonalds (not to mention Nike and Walmart) are good examples!!
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Globalization
I think we all agree somehow, depending on where we live, that globalization is not leading to fair trade...the playing fields are just too uneven.
When ever the rich nations have their commissions travel to developing countries, they have the corporate vultures with them and every "help" to these nations is linked to giving the corporations access to their markets.
"We give you money but we tell you how to spend it!"
The gouvernments owned by the corporations are working well together with corrupt regimes in these countries to the disadvantage of all working people.
A god read is "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.
Indeed a very sad reality!
Anyway, what was this thread about?...just managed to find some local food between all the Nestle products in the corner shop...
When ever the rich nations have their commissions travel to developing countries, they have the corporate vultures with them and every "help" to these nations is linked to giving the corporations access to their markets.
"We give you money but we tell you how to spend it!"
The gouvernments owned by the corporations are working well together with corrupt regimes in these countries to the disadvantage of all working people.
A god read is "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.
Indeed a very sad reality!
Anyway, what was this thread about?...just managed to find some local food between all the Nestle products in the corner shop...
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Originally Posted by schibulsky
EK, EY and QR dont need an Alliance as they are in an Alliance with their governments, something not allowed due to the competition laws elsewhere!
They wouldn't get away with their "business model" in any civilized country!
They wouldn't get away with their "business model" in any civilized country!
After all, what is Chapter 11 protection other than government backing for a failed companyCompetition laws my ar$e in civilised countries
Stick to the beach and your happy retirement mein freund
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@WK
While I happily stick to the beach, I ignore your obvious inability to keep your frustration with your miserable life from lacing your posts with personal insults...btw "mein freund" is reserved for friends...
!
Ignore like in "ignore list" so you can shove any further comments...
!Ignore like in "ignore list" so you can shove any further comments...
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Actually Schibulsky I was being friendly... If however you wish to play the part of a humourless Kraut then so be it
As for miserable and frustrating life - interesting how you can interpret my life for me and my family!! Life's fine thanks - nor do I need to think about retirement although I could do so tomorrow. The thing is, I actually enjoy flying... Not something that I imagine you would understand having been a desk jockey
As for miserable and frustrating life - interesting how you can interpret my life for me and my family!! Life's fine thanks - nor do I need to think about retirement although I could do so tomorrow. The thing is, I actually enjoy flying... Not something that I imagine you would understand having been a desk jockey
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Not something that I imagine you would understand having been a desk jockey
Uh - oh - WK: That was a bit low. And now brace for incoming. In his earlier life Schiby actually drove fastmovers.
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Originally Posted by h3dxb
I bet on the kraut
Oh well - if he drove fastmovers then good for him. See what happens when we makes assumptions based on faceless contact over internet boards
He just needs to catch up with a sense of humour
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Shall we instead to contribute to help repay the omoungous debt (++ 139 billion USD according to latest news) Dubai has made to build some of the most idiotic project ever conceived without even getting in return the right to talk freely?