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I still fail to see why a guy working approach can't give a reasonably accurate indication of track miles from perhaps 6-8000ft (20-30 miles etc) so that we drivers can hit our energy gates in an efficient and accurate fashion.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Pool has provided the best answer, that being - ' ..dont blame the voice coming out the speaker...'. Finger pointing and apportioning blame is an exercise in futility. Air Traffic Control is dynamic (point of fact aviation as an entity is dynamic) and therefore even the most articulated and institution supported plans can and will change.
Icao's mandate, as dated as it is, still provides the most solid foundation...Safe, Orderly and Expeditious. Compromising in any manner the first two in order to achieve the latter will never, in any quarter off the world be met by any level of empathy or understanding.
I have tremendous respect for any and all controllers who sit in front of the coal-face, as-it-where, in todays ever expanding aviation industry, as it is an extremely demanding and in many cases unforgiving environment.
Icao's mandate, as dated as it is, still provides the most solid foundation...Safe, Orderly and Expeditious. Compromising in any manner the first two in order to achieve the latter will never, in any quarter off the world be met by any level of empathy or understanding.
I have tremendous respect for any and all controllers who sit in front of the coal-face, as-it-where, in todays ever expanding aviation industry, as it is an extremely demanding and in many cases unforgiving environment.
Last edited by CuitoCuanavale; 18th Oct 2010 at 21:45. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Missed Point
Falconeasydriver.
I said " Everyone understands your bitch and it is a valid one." So I did not miss you point, I agreed with you.
The problem is that with no proper system in place and the " RESPONSIBLE " person in Dubai calling the wrong spacing to UAE ACC, the Dubai Approach controller ends up with too many aircraft and not enough landing slots, so aircraft are vectored all over the sky while they play catch up.
BTW I do not work in Dubai. I have many years Approach and Flow experience in more complicated airspace with a big mix of Turbo Props and jets. On First contact we ALWAYS gave distance to run, even if straight in, and type of approach expected.
I said " Everyone understands your bitch and it is a valid one." So I did not miss you point, I agreed with you.
The problem is that with no proper system in place and the " RESPONSIBLE " person in Dubai calling the wrong spacing to UAE ACC, the Dubai Approach controller ends up with too many aircraft and not enough landing slots, so aircraft are vectored all over the sky while they play catch up.
BTW I do not work in Dubai. I have many years Approach and Flow experience in more complicated airspace with a big mix of Turbo Props and jets. On First contact we ALWAYS gave distance to run, even if straight in, and type of approach expected.
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Although DXB has has some very sharp controllers, what is missing here is a sequencing "tool" or software which eliminates all the issues mentioned in the posts above.
This software, often known as an Arrival Manager, is used at most other 'first world' airports. It meters the arrivals in a timely fashion so that all involved know what to expect, and the operation is a smooth one, no matter how busy.
The practical application in DXB would be the following:
-Once captured by UAE ACC radar, the system assigns a landing time to each arriving aircraft based on an arrival flow number (say 30/hr)
-Aircraft are held at Desdi/Bubin. Because they have a landing time, the system also generates a depart Desdi/Bubin time. Pilots are issued this time, and must depart, or are vectored to depart at that time. So all delays are absorbed in the hold at higher altitudes.
-Then each aircraft flies a profile descent, and with minimal vectoring turns a 10-15 final, landing 5 miles behind the guy in front. Piece of cake!
So, you ask, why aren't we using this?!? I don't know where to start.............
This software, often known as an Arrival Manager, is used at most other 'first world' airports. It meters the arrivals in a timely fashion so that all involved know what to expect, and the operation is a smooth one, no matter how busy.
The practical application in DXB would be the following:
-Once captured by UAE ACC radar, the system assigns a landing time to each arriving aircraft based on an arrival flow number (say 30/hr)
-Aircraft are held at Desdi/Bubin. Because they have a landing time, the system also generates a depart Desdi/Bubin time. Pilots are issued this time, and must depart, or are vectored to depart at that time. So all delays are absorbed in the hold at higher altitudes.
-Then each aircraft flies a profile descent, and with minimal vectoring turns a 10-15 final, landing 5 miles behind the guy in front. Piece of cake!
So, you ask, why aren't we using this?!? I don't know where to start.............
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Canoehead,
As I should think you are aware, arrivals manager trials are pending in the UAE centre.
Rule 3
Depends on how it's done but I would be very surprised to see ANY modern widebody, flown within the prevalent SOPs of today's operators, maintain 300+ kts until 5 miles before a given waypoint, be instructed to reduce to 250 5 miles out and cross the given point at less than 280-290. We all know it CAN be done but then I refer you to the answer given by the honourable (?!) Oakape some moments ago.
Oakape
Believe me, we are not complete imbeciles and do have some understanding of aircraft performance - there tend to be a fair number of flyers in atc and no, they don't all fly c152s!
The problem with constant descent approaches such as you advocate, is that they really require modern equipment (on our side) and procedures - both of which are sorely lacking in this part of the world. The radar is on the way but don't hold your breath..... As for the procedures - good luck.
As Ferris has stated, the whole of the UAE's procedures are extremely dated but the danish dolt absolutely refuses to allow anything to be changed, after all, they must be perfect as he wrote them!! This leaves the controllers both in Dubai and (particularly) the UAE centre with at least one hand firmly tied behind their backs at all times. Add to that the "f*%K it up and you're gone" mentality and it's clear to see why some allow a margin for error.
With particular regard to Dubai's Bubin arrivals - when it's busy and you call approach at bubin (for RWY30L), there are basically 2 choices for the arrivals controller - direct (or a heading towards) sedpo or right heading 330 or so. IF there is a gap for a straight in, the next factor is your altitude and speed. 11,000ft and 250 kts or so - good chance of the straight in - 17000ft and 300kts - not a hope!
The only other option would be to give a heading of 300 or so, see how you descend and fit in the sequence as appropriate - this however puts you head on to all of the desdi arrivals, neccessitating vertical separation be maintained between the protagonists and I can pretty much guarantee that SOMEONE (esp. if there's a 380 involved!) will be descending at 200fpm or so - thus removing that option or leaving EVERYONE too high.
Therefore, descend at a reasonable rate (in my book 500-1000fpm - if I need more I WILL say so) or suck up the miles and I'll let you know the track miles when it becomes apparent where you will fit in the sequence
. We don't have the space to do anything else. Sure, you could hold at bubin but they don't have the space either!
Pretty much the same goes for 12L but then you get the occasional added fun of US mil firing fighters off from a carrier directly under you (dont laugh, it happened AGAIN this week) WITHOUT EITHER PRIOR WARNING OR RADIO CONTACT and/or sending a p3 across the CTA who, funnily enough, needs to descend through all of your levels and then immediately climb back through them again. Sometimes they even tell us in advance!
As I should think you are aware, arrivals manager trials are pending in the UAE centre.
Rule 3
Are you suggesting that a reduction over 5 miles, approx 45 seconds an aircraft is only going to lose 20 knots slowing from 310 to 290. I don't think so
Oakape
Believe me, we are not complete imbeciles and do have some understanding of aircraft performance - there tend to be a fair number of flyers in atc and no, they don't all fly c152s!
The problem with constant descent approaches such as you advocate, is that they really require modern equipment (on our side) and procedures - both of which are sorely lacking in this part of the world. The radar is on the way but don't hold your breath..... As for the procedures - good luck.
As Ferris has stated, the whole of the UAE's procedures are extremely dated but the danish dolt absolutely refuses to allow anything to be changed, after all, they must be perfect as he wrote them!! This leaves the controllers both in Dubai and (particularly) the UAE centre with at least one hand firmly tied behind their backs at all times. Add to that the "f*%K it up and you're gone" mentality and it's clear to see why some allow a margin for error.
With particular regard to Dubai's Bubin arrivals - when it's busy and you call approach at bubin (for RWY30L), there are basically 2 choices for the arrivals controller - direct (or a heading towards) sedpo or right heading 330 or so. IF there is a gap for a straight in, the next factor is your altitude and speed. 11,000ft and 250 kts or so - good chance of the straight in - 17000ft and 300kts - not a hope!
The only other option would be to give a heading of 300 or so, see how you descend and fit in the sequence as appropriate - this however puts you head on to all of the desdi arrivals, neccessitating vertical separation be maintained between the protagonists and I can pretty much guarantee that SOMEONE (esp. if there's a 380 involved!) will be descending at 200fpm or so - thus removing that option or leaving EVERYONE too high.
Therefore, descend at a reasonable rate (in my book 500-1000fpm - if I need more I WILL say so)
or suck up the miles and I'll let you know the track miles when it becomes apparent where you will fit in the sequence. We don't have the space to do anything else. Sure, you could hold at bubin but they don't have the space either!Pretty much the same goes for 12L but then you get the occasional added fun of US mil firing fighters off from a carrier directly under you (dont laugh, it happened AGAIN this week) WITHOUT EITHER PRIOR WARNING OR RADIO CONTACT and/or sending a p3 across the CTA who, funnily enough, needs to descend through all of your levels and then immediately climb back through them again. Sometimes they even tell us in advance!
Last edited by Guy D'ageradar; 19th Oct 2010 at 12:25.
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Where have you boys been?
Canoe and Guy,
I was asked to present some ideas on a CFMS some 5 years ago. A flow computer was set up in UAE centre, giving landing slots, based on ETA and updated on radar contact. This would allow the flow controller to assign times for aircraft to be at Bubin and Desdi based on RWY and weather conditions. All acft ex OMAA, OMSJ etc would call and be given a slot departure time. Very simple concept. It was demonstrated to the
Mafia in charge of your operation and flatly rejected. As a result you still have the same mess today. I am no longer part of the UAE Circus. I just fire the bullets from the other side of the "Rabbit Proof Fence".
I was asked to present some ideas on a CFMS some 5 years ago. A flow computer was set up in UAE centre, giving landing slots, based on ETA and updated on radar contact. This would allow the flow controller to assign times for aircraft to be at Bubin and Desdi based on RWY and weather conditions. All acft ex OMAA, OMSJ etc would call and be given a slot departure time. Very simple concept. It was demonstrated to the
Mafia in charge of your operation and flatly rejected. As a result you still have the same mess today. I am no longer part of the UAE Circus. I just fire the bullets from the other side of the "Rabbit Proof Fence".
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Gentlemen, why all the aggro?
I'm a 10+ years EK pilot and have witnessed the large increases in traffic at DXB since I've been here.
You know what? I think you guys do a great job. No, it's not perfect but then nothing in life is. Yes, there is room for improvement but so is the case for any major airport around the world.
I'm thankful that DXB delays startup to avoid waiting too long at the hold. I hate it when Beijing or Paris or whoever lets me start and taxi only to get to the runway and wait for ever whilst their local boys jump the queue and take-off.
And I still smile when I watch the long line of landing lights of aircraft on the ILS as I'm taxiing to the gate following my landing after good, safe controlling, even if not entirely fuel efficient.
Dubai APP and UAE ACC - you have come a long way. Don't forget the good stuff. Go have a beer and chill out
I'm a 10+ years EK pilot and have witnessed the large increases in traffic at DXB since I've been here.
You know what? I think you guys do a great job. No, it's not perfect but then nothing in life is. Yes, there is room for improvement but so is the case for any major airport around the world.
I'm thankful that DXB delays startup to avoid waiting too long at the hold. I hate it when Beijing or Paris or whoever lets me start and taxi only to get to the runway and wait for ever whilst their local boys jump the queue and take-off.
And I still smile when I watch the long line of landing lights of aircraft on the ILS as I'm taxiing to the gate following my landing after good, safe controlling, even if not entirely fuel efficient.
Dubai APP and UAE ACC - you have come a long way. Don't forget the good stuff. Go have a beer and chill out
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Hook
No aggro - really, just keeping each other on our toes
Oakape
Glad to see we're getting back to understanding each other's view of the same problem, which, I think, is the point.
The quip regarding Emirates, while flippant, had a point. We see a lot of different companies in here, from all over the world. The only one that I can think of that regularly forces us to change the sequence/ delay others through v. slow rates of descent is emirates. Same goes for not flying the instructed speeds (if you CAN'T fly them, let us know, we can then vector accordingly and it is much less of a problem).
While I acknowledge that Emirates have many more movements than anyone else, it does seem bizarre that they are the only (to the best of my knowledge) airline to "challenge" us in this way.
No aggro - really, just keeping each other on our toes
Oakape
Glad to see we're getting back to understanding each other's view of the same problem, which, I think, is the point.
The quip regarding Emirates, while flippant, had a point. We see a lot of different companies in here, from all over the world. The only one that I can think of that regularly forces us to change the sequence/ delay others through v. slow rates of descent is emirates. Same goes for not flying the instructed speeds (if you CAN'T fly them, let us know, we can then vector accordingly and it is much less of a problem).
While I acknowledge that Emirates have many more movements than anyone else, it does seem bizarre that they are the only (to the best of my knowledge) airline to "challenge" us in this way.
