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Emirates ULR screwing!!!

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Emirates ULR screwing!!!

Old 17th Mar 2010, 18:55
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And you wonder why..

Mister,
If you a trainer and you say you don't trust your FOs because the training dept (yourself?), I agree with my fellow pilot, please get out of the training department or retire. It is people like you that MM said he would get rid of. Some of the FOs here have more experience than you will ever have. You are a joke and good job on starting a bad chain of replys and bad feelings when we already have enough problems here.
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 18:57
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Its not that you dont trust the FO. But there is a reason we have command training....and it an amazing development over a short time. Ask anyone who has just upgraded.
I would not rest comfortably in the bunk without being able to return to my seat in 15 secs...
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Old 17th Mar 2010, 19:32
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STOP BICKERIN...EK is a captains airline and he or she is prob more than any other airline responsible for any probs.(of course they will both be fired if they do something terrible like a badly flown missed approach...say no more),but I understand the dilemma.A lot of EK f/o's are previous captains and a lot are not but as EK f/o's collectively we have to support the skipper as much as poss whatever our background to ensure we all walk away.Skippers also have to respect the chap in the right hand seat who may be more experienced...BUT he is ultimately responsible especially in EK.(poor bugger).
Let us stop bickering about who trusts who etc as 90% of us are experienced enough and we all want to do our job as professionals.There are always exceptions as previously mentioned "the himalaya incident' but that is exceptional.
I suppose what I am trying to say is lets put our ego's away as the collective problem is bigger than all of us and we have to REALLY work collectively as a team to fix it.

Good Flying to all.....
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 03:31
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Good Post Seagoll
J
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 07:51
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Yeah, good post, but it does not deal with the underlying issue.

You pointed out correctly that the skipper will take the full blow in case of a decision that upsets the dish-dashs. How on earth can he influence a urgent decision making from the hell-hole TC banned him into?

To be able to influence or not, that is the question.

Especially if you have to eventually sit in for it.

I am with the lot, I trust 95% of our FOs. But the remaining 5% are very scary, believe me, and in our system they are hard to make out.

Where does that leave me?
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 08:32
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A question

The captain is in the bunk with the two f/o's flying over the Atlantic.Then there is a track violation. Who is held accountable by the authorities and the company?
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 08:56
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The Captain is responsible. The guys flying will also take the rap. Standard.
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 10:40
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Funny how all of a sudden I need 3000 hours on type to upgrade. OK , I can live with that, but your ok to sit in the left as FO on augmenting trips. What a scam.
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 10:43
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I would imagine that the problem would disappear as quickly as it came up if a few Captains were to call in sick to the company while on layover in JFK. After calling HDQ a quick buzz to SOS in order to get a doctor to verify that said Captain does indeed suffer from any number of sympthoms that a medical professional can only diagnose from a patients description yet are serious enough to ground said patient for a number of days. Once management realise that a 777 with 350+ pax cannot take off from JFK with only 2 FOs, talented and qualified and as as they may be, I would imagine that the crewing may change.
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 11:56
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Hi Guys:

I can see why they want to reduce the flight deck crew from 2 augments to 1, simply because they are short of crew at the moment. What bothers me is the reason/excuse they came up with. Saying stupid things such as 'because of the seasonal winds'. I guess there must be a few knots difference but this doesn't justify as a reason.

JUST BE HONEST AND SAY: HEY GUYS WE ARE SHORT OF CREW AND FOR THE TIME BEING WE HAVE TO OPEN UP SOME MANPOWER!!

This would earn a lot more respect from our crews to management instead of making some bullshit excuse!!! Which they have done in the past (utilities??)

BOTTOMLINE IS: WE ARE SIMPLY SHORT OF FLIGHT CREW!! JUST SAY SO!! NO BAD FEELINGS!! For the time I'm happy to help out as long as it doesn't stay a 1 crew augment because: JFK IS A BLOODY LONG WAY FOR A 1 CREW AUGMENT!!!!! AND NOT TO FORGET ONLY 36 HRS TO RECOVER IN JFK BEFORE HEADING BACK!!

CHEERS,

Last edited by FL XXX; 18th Mar 2010 at 15:30.
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 13:36
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This should mean that the captain get 100% of the time logged both ways, as opposed to 100% one way and only 50% of return, which is 75% of total trip under ULR (OMA or FOM)

This would mean that the captain reach 900hours 25% quicker in the year and you will again have a shortfall of crew again.
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 15:48
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correct me if im wrong but doesnt the PIC get 100% 3 pilots 1 capt 2 fo only 1 pic
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 15:59
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A ULR flight has 2 captains and two F/O's. Team A and Team B.

Team A outbound captain claims 100% of the time to JFK, whilst the Team B Captain only gets 50% to JFK of the time for his logbook.

On the return flight, the rolls are reversed and Team B Captain now gets 100% of the flight time whilst Team A Captain only get 50%. The same applies to the first officers.. Now you get 100%+50% which equals to 75% of the entire journey.

Now that there is one captain and two F/O's, it could be said that the relief F/O might not be entitled to claim 100% of the flight time, but the Captain surely would, even if in the bunk. This means before, 15 hours to JFK and 7 hours back (logged time) amounts to 22 hours logged of a 29 hour flight, where as now that captain will now claim the complete 29 hours round trip.
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 16:38
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Guys and girls. Dare I comment. If we want to change anything we first need to get the facts right and have a solid argument. Emotion never gained anything for a pilot group!
FOM, chapter 21, limits on duty. Two or more crew departing 0800-1259, 1 sector = 14hrs. Extendable by half the rest period taken, should make it about 16hrs. Same rules as, for example, an Osaka flight which can be 12hrs30mins easily mid winter on the return.
Same credit, for example, an Osaka flight. Captain and F/O 100%. Augmenting F/O 50%. Straight out of the FOM. If you want to argue the point at least get the facts correct!
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Old 18th Mar 2010, 17:26
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All of the duty time aside.....and the same thing happens at US carriers flying 8+ hours with three crew members to Europe or somewhere. Captain goes sick...flight's done.

And to all the other carriers doing something similar....that was the premise of my original question as to where the PIC is physically located during his rest. I doubt if Qantas, KAL, Singapore et al has the PIC located some 75 mtrs with 300+ pax inbetween his designated rest area and the cockpit. If it doesn't matter, why did Boeing build the aircraft for FAA certification with the rest facility directly behind the cockpit. It would be interesting to see if any other regulating authority besides the GCAA would allow this; the PIC in the aft of the aircraft with no other PIC "qualified" on board.
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Old 19th Mar 2010, 21:43
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"I am with the lot, I trust 95% of our FOs. But the remaining 5% are very scary, believe me, and in our system they are hard to make out."


Relax guys. I bet that even the 5% "scary" bunch would be able to hold the wings level until the boss showed up in the cockpit

All the stupid rules they (the desk folks) write in these FCI/FCNs are just façade. They don't follow most of them and distort the rest as they please. This is Emirates.

Last edited by H1N1; 20th Mar 2010 at 05:12.
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Old 20th Mar 2010, 07:48
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Anybody know if the 3 man ULR flights are time factored? That would mean that as the only Captain on board, if they factor your time in the bulk, no captain would officially be on board the A/C while you are in the bulk. Interesting hein!!! Any info on this one?

Keep Discovering
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Old 20th Mar 2010, 08:14
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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EkPILOT,

If you search the forum 4 or 5 years back you will find that this was all explained then when the 3 man JFK first started. This is not something new!!!
What happens on the PER or any other trip when 1CA and 2FOs operate?
Not agreeing with this concept of removing crew from trips, but think you need to think before posting.

Just know the rules, and if you are not legal to depart JFK don't. And don't let them decide the new departure time until your inside your hotel room and starting your rest period.

The Don
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Old 20th Mar 2010, 09:08
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Jim,
I presume that the interpretation of that paragraph (1.1) is that when the flight time does actually drop below 14 hrs then it ceases to be ULR? It is logical I guess (from a duty period point of view). I presume therefore that the Cost Index may be raised on occasion to ensure 14 hours max flight time?

We will see!
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Old 20th Mar 2010, 09:10
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Come on Mister the don, relax, I know the rules i did those flights back then. Can you answer my question about the factoring... that's all? Do you know what I'm talking about?

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