EK March Roster...The best is yet to come.
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Aha...
Thx to Mr Angry.
Its basically the same as "discretion" in Subpart Q then.
The problem with discretion is that they usually ask you awhile before the problem arises. Its very easy to make the decision "to go" because you at that time feel allright. One has to think ahead and anticipate ones level of fatigue etc.
Ramrise
Its basically the same as "discretion" in Subpart Q then.
The problem with discretion is that they usually ask you awhile before the problem arises. Its very easy to make the decision "to go" because you at that time feel allright. One has to think ahead and anticipate ones level of fatigue etc.
Ramrise
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Remember it's 'Captain's Discretion'. Not the Company's. I hear there's been an aeroplane or two dumped in odd places recently, as a result of the captain exercising that discretion - i.e. not continuing into discretion.
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BYMONEK
Sure enough the rules apply at any airport. The difference with home base is, that you have only just met the crew. You have not experienced their level of alertness, you know zilch about them. The FOM however clearly states that you need to " ... take note of circumstances of other crew members ... " before deciding about discretion. This means you basically need to go and talk to every one and check with him/her the last few working days and level of fatigue. Furthermore you don't know the FOs aptitudes. They will be in charge when you rest, in very remote regions sometimes, and you need to be able to assess if an extension of duty can be well enough handled by them. After a couple of hours seeing them work this is certainly possible, but not at the very beginning of duty in a friggin cold and useless HQ, with barely enough time to check in and assistance from dispatch and FDM that ridicules the very term.
That's why discretion out of DXB, right at the beginning of an operation, is very different as to extending duty once launched.
The mentioned article would be very handily used by our beloved company, if you give discretion (too) early and run into even a minor screw up.
Be very careful!
Sure enough the rules apply at any airport. The difference with home base is, that you have only just met the crew. You have not experienced their level of alertness, you know zilch about them. The FOM however clearly states that you need to " ... take note of circumstances of other crew members ... " before deciding about discretion. This means you basically need to go and talk to every one and check with him/her the last few working days and level of fatigue. Furthermore you don't know the FOs aptitudes. They will be in charge when you rest, in very remote regions sometimes, and you need to be able to assess if an extension of duty can be well enough handled by them. After a couple of hours seeing them work this is certainly possible, but not at the very beginning of duty in a friggin cold and useless HQ, with barely enough time to check in and assistance from dispatch and FDM that ridicules the very term.
That's why discretion out of DXB, right at the beginning of an operation, is very different as to extending duty once launched.
The mentioned article would be very handily used by our beloved company, if you give discretion (too) early and run into even a minor screw up.
Be very careful!
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How long is JFK flight
Just an observer I was wondering what the block time is on the DXB-JFK and JFK-DXB. Most US airlines have 1 CA - 2 F/O's from 8-11:59 hrs block. 12 hrs and beyond it is 2 CA's - 2 F/O's or 1 Ca 3 F/O's depending on the airlines union contract.
Cheers
Cheers
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just remember chaps you cannot PLAN into discretion you can only use it once effectively dispatched.I don't think crewing understand this,well certainly not from my experience...may the force be with us!
Another point about discretion ex DXB - why? There "should be" enough reserve coverage to make the flight legal under FDL's being home base to everyone.
Which brings me to my next point. When the decision has been made to operate into "captains discretion", then the FDL's, although offering guidance for using discretion, are being breached. Therefor any extension of FDL's is beyond the company's accepted and regulated limit and now any recourse is null and void. In other words, the skipper is wholly responsible for any stuff-up by anyone on that flight whilst on duty.
"This incident, your Honor, may have been avoided if the captain had maintained and had kept within the legal limits of the established FDL's. It seems also, your Honor, that he did not follow the company's requirement to understand each and every crew members circumstances prior to ignoring the regulated FDL's"
Some may argue that's normal, but that's another issue.
halas
Which brings me to my next point. When the decision has been made to operate into "captains discretion", then the FDL's, although offering guidance for using discretion, are being breached. Therefor any extension of FDL's is beyond the company's accepted and regulated limit and now any recourse is null and void. In other words, the skipper is wholly responsible for any stuff-up by anyone on that flight whilst on duty.
"This incident, your Honor, may have been avoided if the captain had maintained and had kept within the legal limits of the established FDL's. It seems also, your Honor, that he did not follow the company's requirement to understand each and every crew members circumstances prior to ignoring the regulated FDL's"
Some may argue that's normal, but that's another issue.
halas
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Seagoll is half right- the company can't produce a flight plan/pairing which has you into discretion even if you push on time, which explains some of the wildly optimistic taxi times you sometimes see. However, dispatch has nothing to do with it. You can use discretion any time after you have signed in if, for example, an aircraft goes tech before the passengers have borarded and you have to do an aircraft swap. That is one of the contingencies discretion is desgined to cover. I don't mean to be pedantic about this but if we are going to argue with crewing about it (and if we say no be ready for a healthy discussion!) we need to know the rules inside out.
Halas raises an interesting point though- you shouldn't need to go into discression out of Dubai as there should be enough standby coverage.
Halas raises an interesting point though- you shouldn't need to go into discression out of Dubai as there should be enough standby coverage.
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plan into discretion is fairly obvious i would suggest...example recently at wake up in down route hotel phone rings 'crewing here you will be flying into discretion on return flight ok' ...no! advised you cannot plan into discretion suddenly flight plan changes and apparently suddenly we are not into discretion....mmm.I hav'nt looked closely at ftl area as has not affected me yet and would send me to sleep...all that shading..but discretionary rules are fairly universal,just not universally applied...yeeha
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Can anyone recall the (accurate) details of the crew, some years ago, who experienced very long delays after taxi at JFK (I think after quite a long delay before taxi), to the point where they realised they were going to be beyond their 2 hour's max planned discretion before they even took off?
I understand they phoned Dubai, only to be informed by scheduling that taxi time didn't count towards MFD time(!)
I understand they phoned Dubai, only to be informed by scheduling that taxi time didn't count towards MFD time(!)
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Surely if planning into discretion was allowed, they(company) wouldnt need to apply annex/variations to certain flights. Staff the airline adequately and these issues would go away. We as pilots are payed to operate the aircraft safely and efficiently not cover for other departments bad planning, lack of planning or any other such deficiencies. Stop covering for them and hold them accountable for their inadequacies, like they try to do so often with ours, through punitive measures.
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A Flighplan produced the day before and the day of is not what is meant buy "planned". Ed will tell you what it means if you ask, I seem to recall it is historical data valid for 6 months. If that produces flt times able to be done with 3 pilots what happens on the day does not matter. But it's CAPTAIN discretion not the company
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FATBUS
Yes Pilots need to be wary of "scheduled" and "planned". If the schedule DXB-JFK is 12.40hrs then in theory EK should be keeping an eye out on the average block time to ensure it's a good and if required adjusting it on a seasonal basis (due to slots etc) I guess with JFK taxi times the one more likely to be a problem is JFK-DXB.
On report on the day of the operation the flight time might be showing 13.10hrs but the FDP calculation I believe is based on the "scheduled" time of 12.40hrs because who know's what will happen en route particularly on such a long flight (yes it's more than likely it will end up with in advertant use of discretion).
Personally if I were EK i'd muster a standby crew somewhere in Europe so a plane could drop in for a quick crew change. One of the posters mentioned he got off and caused a 7hr delay in DXB, this would be a way of reducing that scenario. If I was a punter i'd prefer that.
I also think it worth pointing out that the flight departs DXB at 0200LT I believe so it's definately a "long haul" schedule
Yes Pilots need to be wary of "scheduled" and "planned". If the schedule DXB-JFK is 12.40hrs then in theory EK should be keeping an eye out on the average block time to ensure it's a good and if required adjusting it on a seasonal basis (due to slots etc) I guess with JFK taxi times the one more likely to be a problem is JFK-DXB.
On report on the day of the operation the flight time might be showing 13.10hrs but the FDP calculation I believe is based on the "scheduled" time of 12.40hrs because who know's what will happen en route particularly on such a long flight (yes it's more than likely it will end up with in advertant use of discretion).
Personally if I were EK i'd muster a standby crew somewhere in Europe so a plane could drop in for a quick crew change. One of the posters mentioned he got off and caused a 7hr delay in DXB, this would be a way of reducing that scenario. If I was a punter i'd prefer that.
I also think it worth pointing out that the flight departs DXB at 0200LT I believe so it's definately a "long haul" schedule
Thread Starter
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If it is short by a few minutes you need to fix the 
of planning. Be responsible, put fuel, fly 0.87M the whole way. Safety first 
On a JFK-DXB you can catch up 20 minutes at 0.87
You have to do your job and avoid discretion if possible. Then at the end if you end up being 2 minutes in discretion, well, at least you tried as much as you could to avoid going overtime on the FTL. In the event of an incident, a judge in a court would agree that there was a possibility of not going into discretion intentionally. That would be a fair reason for accepting to do the flight. But fly flight plan econ speed, and have a scratch at the end? I'm not sure what a judge would think??? Remember guys, EK is totally broke, it is a fact. All the money is ending down the road.The $$$ is where it hurts.
Safety First
of planning. Be responsible, put fuel, fly 0.87M the whole way. Safety first On a JFK-DXB you can catch up 20 minutes at 0.87 You have to do your job and avoid discretion if possible. Then at the end if you end up being 2 minutes in discretion, well, at least you tried as much as you could to avoid going overtime on the FTL. In the event of an incident, a judge in a court would agree that there was a possibility of not going into discretion intentionally. That would be a fair reason for accepting to do the flight. But fly flight plan econ speed, and have a scratch at the end? I'm not sure what a judge would think??? Remember guys, EK is totally broke, it is a fact. All the money is ending down the road.The $$$ is where it hurts.Safety First
Mr Angry,
I don't get your point. Why have a crew based in Europe on standby when one extra crew member on board would alleviate the problem in the first instance?
l have a 203 next month and it is four crew. Is it only 201 that is effected?
It's interesting that 414 is planned at CI 500 to try and arrive prior to the onset of curfew in SYD. If they run one minute late they are off to MEL/BNE etc. This, both the CI and running late, costs the company money.
201 on the other hand is anticipated to occasionally use discretion, which saves the company money. I wonder if they will adjust the CI for three crew FDP?
halas
I don't get your point. Why have a crew based in Europe on standby when one extra crew member on board would alleviate the problem in the first instance?
l have a 203 next month and it is four crew. Is it only 201 that is effected?
It's interesting that 414 is planned at CI 500 to try and arrive prior to the onset of curfew in SYD. If they run one minute late they are off to MEL/BNE etc. This, both the CI and running late, costs the company money.
201 on the other hand is anticipated to occasionally use discretion, which saves the company money. I wonder if they will adjust the CI for three crew FDP?
halas
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Remember this kiddies, they will drop you like a soiled johnny if anything happens when you are in discretion (anytime really). That is their fatigue get out of jail card....You are acknowledging that you are fit to fly beyond a FTL, your really exposing yourself.
When something goes wrong, thats when TCAS will remind you that its YOUR discretion. Until then, he will do everything to make it HIS discretion.
Look were not getting a cent of bonus, raise or whatever. So if they come close to discretion, especially on an annex flight, take extra fuel and go fast and lower. These guys are making nice bonuses off our backs and not sharing one dirham, they take all the credit and we carry all the weight. They will certainly blame us when we all run out of time for the year.
Money aside, it is a safety issue and forcing flights into discretion because of greed is a dangerous trend. Forcing a confrontation about FTL on these flights is a very subtle but dangerous stress.
I dont give a s#$% about EK's profitability because I am on my way home.
I will always operate to the highest level of safety and be professional with my crew.
I used to care about profitiability because this used to be a place to stay for awhile.
I am on my way home because AAR, TCAS and the horse.
I hope someone up top understands this concept.
When something goes wrong, thats when TCAS will remind you that its YOUR discretion. Until then, he will do everything to make it HIS discretion.
Look were not getting a cent of bonus, raise or whatever. So if they come close to discretion, especially on an annex flight, take extra fuel and go fast and lower. These guys are making nice bonuses off our backs and not sharing one dirham, they take all the credit and we carry all the weight. They will certainly blame us when we all run out of time for the year.
Money aside, it is a safety issue and forcing flights into discretion because of greed is a dangerous trend. Forcing a confrontation about FTL on these flights is a very subtle but dangerous stress.
I dont give a s#$% about EK's profitability because I am on my way home.
I will always operate to the highest level of safety and be professional with my crew.
I used to care about profitiability because this used to be a place to stay for awhile.
I am on my way home because AAR, TCAS and the horse.
I hope someone up top understands this concept.
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High Speed
Halas,
The 345 did this 3 man for a summer a few years back and i'm pretty sure there was never high speed at the planning stage. The real problem was departing past the 8,11, 14 minutes or whatever was the cutoff where discretion would be required. This is where, in my opinion, you have 3 choices - 1. See how it's going at dep -30 and decide if ~4 tons is required for .85-.87, 2. Walk off and go home (i know a guy who did this and heard nothing from the company) or, 3. Use discretion and take ALL the reponsibility into your own hands.
The way to fight this one is make a statement (ie #1 or #2 above), following the laws to a tee. Read and re-read your FTLs so you know it as well as them and be willing to back up any action with a strong book knowledge. In this disgusting climate, they might come after you, at least for a chat about it. Smile, nod and have an answer for every BS comment or question they have.
The 345 did this 3 man for a summer a few years back and i'm pretty sure there was never high speed at the planning stage. The real problem was departing past the 8,11, 14 minutes or whatever was the cutoff where discretion would be required. This is where, in my opinion, you have 3 choices - 1. See how it's going at dep -30 and decide if ~4 tons is required for .85-.87, 2. Walk off and go home (i know a guy who did this and heard nothing from the company) or, 3. Use discretion and take ALL the reponsibility into your own hands.
The way to fight this one is make a statement (ie #1 or #2 above), following the laws to a tee. Read and re-read your FTLs so you know it as well as them and be willing to back up any action with a strong book knowledge. In this disgusting climate, they might come after you, at least for a chat about it. Smile, nod and have an answer for every BS comment or question they have.
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This is a conversation all about "BALLS".
Have you got big enough ones to once and for all stand up to these pr*cks.
LR3 one of the better statements made here re EK and its pilots!!!
UNFORTUNATELY the Emirates pilots pair of balls you refer to only seems to exist on the majority of EK pilots bodies either as a scratching exercise on layovers, to use only while talking to the mates over beers about what these same said pilots will do, would do or might do if the company screwed with them but would be safely hidden away if confronted by management on an issue OR finally as an indication that they do not have female genitalia!!
If a pilot is tired he should not fly. If he is sick he should not fly. This has always been recognised in aviation. Not so at Emirates. Seems to me from reading Emirates posts that Emirates required its pilots to leave their nads in their homecountry when they joined. Either that or their wives have kept them in a jar next to the bed when these same pilots go to work.
It is unbelieveable to read how much the Emirates pilots are allowing themselves to be pushed around by management. Extra flying (15+ hours) per month for free, less days off, utility bills, education increases etc......
What can the pilots do? As a group nothing due to the illegality of unions in the UAE (which by the way can you believe that it is illegal to have representation that would allow a worker or group of workers to improve their working conditions?) but as an individual you can do a lot.... call sick if you are sick, call fatigue if you are fatigued and don't come on PPRUNE moaning about your working conditions if you are not willing to do something about them.
Have you got big enough ones to once and for all stand up to these pr*cks.
LR3 one of the better statements made here re EK and its pilots!!!
UNFORTUNATELY the Emirates pilots pair of balls you refer to only seems to exist on the majority of EK pilots bodies either as a scratching exercise on layovers, to use only while talking to the mates over beers about what these same said pilots will do, would do or might do if the company screwed with them but would be safely hidden away if confronted by management on an issue OR finally as an indication that they do not have female genitalia!!
If a pilot is tired he should not fly. If he is sick he should not fly. This has always been recognised in aviation. Not so at Emirates. Seems to me from reading Emirates posts that Emirates required its pilots to leave their nads in their homecountry when they joined. Either that or their wives have kept them in a jar next to the bed when these same pilots go to work.
It is unbelieveable to read how much the Emirates pilots are allowing themselves to be pushed around by management. Extra flying (15+ hours) per month for free, less days off, utility bills, education increases etc......
What can the pilots do? As a group nothing due to the illegality of unions in the UAE (which by the way can you believe that it is illegal to have representation that would allow a worker or group of workers to improve their working conditions?) but as an individual you can do a lot.... call sick if you are sick, call fatigue if you are fatigued and don't come on PPRUNE moaning about your working conditions if you are not willing to do something about them.
...and don't come on PPRuNe moaning about your working conditions if you are not willing to do something about them.
After 18 months of 'research' the company came out with this yesterday:
Initial indications are that crew operational performance, as measured by objective tests after rest in the A380 CRC, is unaffected by noise levels.
-----------------------------------
halas wrote:
l have a 203 next month and it is four crew. Is it only 201 that is effected?
Can't remember the last 201 l did, but thanks for clearing that up.
Knowing the FTL on each trip is compulsory.
Had an aircraft go tech on push back in DXB for an Annex 1. flight. Was asked to use discretion. (There in lies the trigger for the alarm bells)...no
Had crew go sick in PER, and asked to use discretion...no
Had to divert on route and asked to use discretion for an extra sector after a long night of issues....no
Have used discretion a few times as it was the best outcome for the situation at the time.
It's not about balls, it's knowledge and knowing that saying NO is very easy.
halas
Knowing the FTL on each trip is compulsory.
Had an aircraft go tech on push back in DXB for an Annex 1. flight. Was asked to use discretion. (There in lies the trigger for the alarm bells)...no
Had crew go sick in PER, and asked to use discretion...no
Had to divert on route and asked to use discretion for an extra sector after a long night of issues....no
Have used discretion a few times as it was the best outcome for the situation at the time.
It's not about balls, it's knowledge and knowing that saying NO is very easy.
halas
Last edited by halas; 25th Feb 2010 at 12:44.
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You can't plan into discretion but there are rules which are designed to cover seasonal operating plan changeovers. Only a proportion of the flights have to be doable during a particular window which explains why it is completely legal to have a flight time greater than the block which would lead to discretion.
As to believing it is your discretion, it is devolved authority from the NPH and it would take a brave man given an order from the big man not to 'help out'. Not saying some wouldn't and I am sure I will have a load of outraged comments now about moral high ground but the reality is the pilot group have shown themselves to be a bunch of pussys that will just roll over and take whatever they are given. In that climate megalomania flourishes.
As to believing it is your discretion, it is devolved authority from the NPH and it would take a brave man given an order from the big man not to 'help out'. Not saying some wouldn't and I am sure I will have a load of outraged comments now about moral high ground but the reality is the pilot group have shown themselves to be a bunch of pussys that will just roll over and take whatever they are given. In that climate megalomania flourishes.