Ek Runners (absconders - not the Nike guys)
Join Date: Sep 2000
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5Star , whether one has worked in the Middle East or not , don`t you get what I said ? Or , just like a few years back are you doing the comparable " just following orders " routine ? Either way , my point is that something should be done and if the " system " prevents that , well , what a sorry state to be in.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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OBOGS
Its the same CAR as the UK. I have it on some handout for a UAE Air Law exam long time ago.
I tried to find it on UAE GCAA web site, but you need to subscribe to their service.
Anyone out there with the correct reference? 8 hours/0,02% blood alcohol.
Thats way more stricter than EK, and therefor a trap to avoid.
Its the same CAR as the UK. I have it on some handout for a UAE Air Law exam long time ago.
I tried to find it on UAE GCAA web site, but you need to subscribe to their service.
Anyone out there with the correct reference? 8 hours/0,02% blood alcohol.
Thats way more stricter than EK, and therefor a trap to avoid.
Join Date: May 2007
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Interesting story for those thinking of skipping town.
Tuesday 15 Dec, 2009
He rented a car to get around Dubai - but now Roddy Bassett is one of the world’s most wanted men. The UK-based holiday salesman is the latest Dubai expat to end up on the Interpol wanted list - for owing less than dhs5,000 on a rented Peugeot.
“It’s just so ridiculous. I’m not a criminal and there I am on the wanted list with terrorists and drug lords,” he told 7DAYS.
While most countries contact Interpol - an international network of police forces - to track down major criminals like serial killers and terrorists, the UAE hunts anyone who has left the Emirates owing money.
The zero tolerance policy has left more than 160 former UAE residents rubbing shoulders with Osama Bin Laden and some of the world’s biggest criminals on the Interpol wanted list.
Of these, 112 Dubai cases are for fraud - a crime that includes owing money on apartments, cars or credit cards.
Bassett, 39, was working for a Media City marketing company when he rented the Peugeot in 2005.
He said he paid every dirham due until the month he left Dubai but would have had extra charges for cancelling his rental contract. “I will be the first to admit it - I didn’t handle it very well. I drove it from my place in Jumeirah to a friend’s and left it there,” he said.
Last week, he turned himself in to police in Exeter, England, after his father informed him that Interpol was looking for him.
He said his elderly dad emailed him from Scotland with the news last week.
“He said: ‘You’re wanted by Interpol…would you like to elaborate?’ I was stunned,” Bassett said, adding he is broke but will “absolutely” repay the rental company.
A spokeswoman for Devon and Cornwall police confirmed that Bassett had been released after Interpol confirmed the case concerned a rental car bill.
Interpol told 7DAYS last night that it had discussed the case with Dubai police and that all charges against Bassett may be dropped if he paid a fine of approximately dhs 4,000 and paid off his car rental debts. However, he said there must be no other charges against Bassett if the plan is to work.
Interpol also said that Bassett could contact it directly if work out a solution.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Thanks for the link.
(e) A crew member shall not:
(1) Consume alcohol less than 8 hours prior to the specified reporting time for flight duty or the commencement of standby;
(2) Commence a flight duty period with a blood alcohol level in excess of 0·2 promille;
(3) Consume alcohol during the flight duty period or whilst on standby.
I think you will find its no drinking within 8 hrs of duty and at report for duty the max is .2, standard stuff
(e) A crew member shall not:
(1) Consume alcohol less than 8 hours prior to the specified reporting time for flight duty or the commencement of standby;
(2) Commence a flight duty period with a blood alcohol level in excess of 0·2 promille;
(3) Consume alcohol during the flight duty period or whilst on standby.
I think you will find its no drinking within 8 hrs of duty and at report for duty the max is .2, standard stuff
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Because those in charge said that when you report in the hotel lobby for one's trip.....you are on duty, no matter if it takes the bus two hours just to get to the airport. They figured if you're in uniform, you're on duty. Plus they had to cover their man's (term used loosely) backside when he called it in.
IXNAT has nailed it as far EK is concerned, they couldn't give rats about CAR-OPS or anything else, if you are in Uniform, you are on a company duty. End of story. Its corporate policy.
EGGW.
EGGW.
Join Date: May 2005
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I'm not condoning being in uniform and over the legal limit for alcohol but isn't it strange that EK uses this 'policy' when it comes to everything other than Flight Time Limitations?
I was once called for a duty, reported for work, only to find out that they had messed up and I was not required. No problem, ****e happens, so off home I went. (about 4 hours after waking up for work).
Then I get a call from rostering telling me they were assigning me an R23, which was about 4 hours later. They did not agree that I had already been on duty because.... as they said, I didn't actually 'do' anything. Needless to say, I refused and told them I would not answer my phone.
DUTY is defined by EK, as ''any continuous period during which a crew member is required to carry out any task associated with the business of the company.''
Yet, EK does not credit when we normally arrive at work to perform our duties nor do they consider the time we are carrying out tasks after chocks-on! They only credit one hour prior to ETD and ZERO time after chocks-on.
But when it suits EK's purpose, for something such as ignoring the CAR's or whatever, they revert to 'company' policy. My opinion is that they should not 'have it both ways'.
No wonder Unions are not allowed in this ****e-hole country, haha!
I was once called for a duty, reported for work, only to find out that they had messed up and I was not required. No problem, ****e happens, so off home I went. (about 4 hours after waking up for work).
Then I get a call from rostering telling me they were assigning me an R23, which was about 4 hours later. They did not agree that I had already been on duty because.... as they said, I didn't actually 'do' anything. Needless to say, I refused and told them I would not answer my phone.
DUTY is defined by EK, as ''any continuous period during which a crew member is required to carry out any task associated with the business of the company.''
Yet, EK does not credit when we normally arrive at work to perform our duties nor do they consider the time we are carrying out tasks after chocks-on! They only credit one hour prior to ETD and ZERO time after chocks-on.
But when it suits EK's purpose, for something such as ignoring the CAR's or whatever, they revert to 'company' policy. My opinion is that they should not 'have it both ways'.
No wonder Unions are not allowed in this ****e-hole country, haha!
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Actually Mensa, you highlighted a common misunderstanding....
FLIGHT Duty Period (FDP) ends at chocks on, however DUTY Period ends 30 mins AFTER chocks on.
So if you chock on in Dubai at 2200, you cannot be on duty again until 1030 the next day (12 hrs 30 mins after chocks on).
Just a small point, but commonly incorrectly applied.
FLIGHT Duty Period (FDP) ends at chocks on, however DUTY Period ends 30 mins AFTER chocks on.
So if you chock on in Dubai at 2200, you cannot be on duty again until 1030 the next day (12 hrs 30 mins after chocks on).
Just a small point, but commonly incorrectly applied.
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Heads we win... Tails you lose!
Mensa is spot on regarding the convenient double standard regarding when you are "on duty".
To the best of anyone's knowledge, has anyone refused an alcohol test until actual duty on time (1hr prior to departure), passed the test (like .00%) and suffered any repercussions??
Taken to its ultimate and completely illogical extreme, the guys from Nemesis Testing could coceivably be waiting for you in your Audi, or outside your hotel room...
SHR
To the best of anyone's knowledge, has anyone refused an alcohol test until actual duty on time (1hr prior to departure), passed the test (like .00%) and suffered any repercussions??
Taken to its ultimate and completely illogical extreme, the guys from Nemesis Testing could coceivably be waiting for you in your Audi, or outside your hotel room...
SHR
Join Date: May 2005
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Oblaas,
I completely understand the fact that our 'rest period' is contingent upon blocks-on plus 30 minutes. But until 2 years ago, EK had considered blocks-on plus 30 minutes for the relevant duty day and not just the subsequent duty period. Why the change?
Perhaps one or two other ridiculous airlines on this planet, now take this approach to FTL's but I am unaware of any.
What YOU don't understand, is that this company....... EMIRATES AIRLINE...... is taking whatever liberties they wish, without due regard for Fatigue and by definition, Flight Safety.
FATIGUE and long term health effects of Emirates employees are not even a consideration for our management, unless of course, the truth becomes known to either the general public or the ineffectual airline authority in the UAE.
Let's face facts..... they don't give a damn. Most employees at Emirates Airline leave within 5 years, so the long term health effects are inconsequential to their thinking, plus the fact that NO ONE is actually regulating the obtuse and illegal interpretation of EK's FTL's.
COME ON!!!!!!!!! Variations to the normal flight time limitations are actually considered acceptable in this hell-hole? Take a serious read regarding Variations because the only allowances are made for......... time off AFTER the flights. (ok fine, there is a small margin before the flight). But how the hell does 'time off' after doing a Variation, help a pilot perform his duties......... DURING the variation?
I understand the decline of Dubai in general and I voiced those concerns long before it was generally accepted. (wish i was as smart at Dooner or and that other guy who professed things so succinctly, long before it was common knowledge) I am not pissed off because Dubai is such a crap-hole place, I am mad because Emirates Airline has turned into such a meager existence.
We can't even spend time with our friends and enjoy the good aspects of Dubai, BECAUSE OUR SKEDS are so crazy. I am actually considering leaving this place solely based upon that fact.
When you pass the age of 40, this place is a death sentence. I look after myself, have a relatively stress free life (thanks to my family) yet there is no doubt in my mind that this existence is not conducive to harmony or happiness.
I occasionally feel like punching the minority of my colleagues who are living in a dream world, and then in the next sentence they tell me their wife is leaving them! Darn, it is becoming more and more difficult to be so 'upbeat' on each on every flight.
In spite of my postings which might seem negative, I am a happy dude. But I have to admit, it affects me too much when I consistently fly with 'unhappy' pilots. They generally walk off the plane and slap me on the back, saying they appreciated me listening to them about their concerns without judgement. Oddly enough, this has more of an negative consequence to me, because I actually feel for these guys. I can't imagine bringing my wife and family here only to discover we hated the place and the company. Ouch.
Fook Me..... ANYONE who defends Emirates Airline's practices with respect to employees is either a moron or a kiss-ass wannabee. Without exception!
I completely understand the fact that our 'rest period' is contingent upon blocks-on plus 30 minutes. But until 2 years ago, EK had considered blocks-on plus 30 minutes for the relevant duty day and not just the subsequent duty period. Why the change?
Perhaps one or two other ridiculous airlines on this planet, now take this approach to FTL's but I am unaware of any.
What YOU don't understand, is that this company....... EMIRATES AIRLINE...... is taking whatever liberties they wish, without due regard for Fatigue and by definition, Flight Safety.
FATIGUE and long term health effects of Emirates employees are not even a consideration for our management, unless of course, the truth becomes known to either the general public or the ineffectual airline authority in the UAE.
Let's face facts..... they don't give a damn. Most employees at Emirates Airline leave within 5 years, so the long term health effects are inconsequential to their thinking, plus the fact that NO ONE is actually regulating the obtuse and illegal interpretation of EK's FTL's.
COME ON!!!!!!!!! Variations to the normal flight time limitations are actually considered acceptable in this hell-hole? Take a serious read regarding Variations because the only allowances are made for......... time off AFTER the flights. (ok fine, there is a small margin before the flight). But how the hell does 'time off' after doing a Variation, help a pilot perform his duties......... DURING the variation?
I understand the decline of Dubai in general and I voiced those concerns long before it was generally accepted. (wish i was as smart at Dooner or and that other guy who professed things so succinctly, long before it was common knowledge) I am not pissed off because Dubai is such a crap-hole place, I am mad because Emirates Airline has turned into such a meager existence.
We can't even spend time with our friends and enjoy the good aspects of Dubai, BECAUSE OUR SKEDS are so crazy. I am actually considering leaving this place solely based upon that fact.
When you pass the age of 40, this place is a death sentence. I look after myself, have a relatively stress free life (thanks to my family) yet there is no doubt in my mind that this existence is not conducive to harmony or happiness.
I occasionally feel like punching the minority of my colleagues who are living in a dream world, and then in the next sentence they tell me their wife is leaving them! Darn, it is becoming more and more difficult to be so 'upbeat' on each on every flight.
In spite of my postings which might seem negative, I am a happy dude. But I have to admit, it affects me too much when I consistently fly with 'unhappy' pilots. They generally walk off the plane and slap me on the back, saying they appreciated me listening to them about their concerns without judgement. Oddly enough, this has more of an negative consequence to me, because I actually feel for these guys. I can't imagine bringing my wife and family here only to discover we hated the place and the company. Ouch.
Fook Me..... ANYONE who defends Emirates Airline's practices with respect to employees is either a moron or a kiss-ass wannabee. Without exception!
Join Date: May 2005
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Muttley, you said,
''Hey you noticed! Armed with this knowledge, you should now be able to relax a little and enjoy life outside of work because you understand why they do what they do.''
I do enjoy life outside of EK and I totally agree with you that life is what you make it.
But are you suggesting that since I recognize the lunacy of this company with regards to Fatigue, that I now should just be able to overcome it and be happy with my lot in life? Sorry, not so easy for people who actually feel for their colleagues. Admittedly, I have it easy compared to most pilots here, due to my personal circumstances, but even I am finding this job is becoming too much.
I could deal with stupidity from our management except for the following;
1- We're talking about flight safety
2- Long term (let alone short-term) health effects are NO consideration for our illustrious leaders. They don't care because they are all like ED and TCAS and are only considering their personal benefit.
3- Not one person in management understands the true aspects of crossing time zones, flying back to back night and day flights and working schedules that are not conducive to proper rest
4- Not one person in management cares..... even if they were capable of understanding!
5- 15% of pilots at EK are willing accomplices to the lies
My goodness, the only reason this planet is in peril is due to complacency or a willingness to accept poor leadership. EK is going to fall at some point. It might be next year or it might be in 10 years. But it will surely happen.
It might take a massive disaster such as killiing 300 people or it might be a general decline due to poor management. But whatever the experts degree to be the cause, it will happen because we have management who only have their personal interests in mind. Sadly, pilots must take some blame as well, even though the entire deck of cards is stacked against us. But every time we go into discretion, accept a change from rostering, or simply knuckle under to pressure, we all take some responsibility for the inevitable demise of this airline.
Newbies joining this airline are in for a rough ride. Most of us already here here, have experienced at least some good times, and benefited accordingly, but the poor bastards coming here now are in for a shock. My heart goes out to them.
''Hey you noticed! Armed with this knowledge, you should now be able to relax a little and enjoy life outside of work because you understand why they do what they do.''
I do enjoy life outside of EK and I totally agree with you that life is what you make it.
But are you suggesting that since I recognize the lunacy of this company with regards to Fatigue, that I now should just be able to overcome it and be happy with my lot in life? Sorry, not so easy for people who actually feel for their colleagues. Admittedly, I have it easy compared to most pilots here, due to my personal circumstances, but even I am finding this job is becoming too much.
I could deal with stupidity from our management except for the following;
1- We're talking about flight safety
2- Long term (let alone short-term) health effects are NO consideration for our illustrious leaders. They don't care because they are all like ED and TCAS and are only considering their personal benefit.
3- Not one person in management understands the true aspects of crossing time zones, flying back to back night and day flights and working schedules that are not conducive to proper rest
4- Not one person in management cares..... even if they were capable of understanding!
5- 15% of pilots at EK are willing accomplices to the lies
My goodness, the only reason this planet is in peril is due to complacency or a willingness to accept poor leadership. EK is going to fall at some point. It might be next year or it might be in 10 years. But it will surely happen.
It might take a massive disaster such as killiing 300 people or it might be a general decline due to poor management. But whatever the experts degree to be the cause, it will happen because we have management who only have their personal interests in mind. Sadly, pilots must take some blame as well, even though the entire deck of cards is stacked against us. But every time we go into discretion, accept a change from rostering, or simply knuckle under to pressure, we all take some responsibility for the inevitable demise of this airline.
Newbies joining this airline are in for a rough ride. Most of us already here here, have experienced at least some good times, and benefited accordingly, but the poor bastards coming here now are in for a shock. My heart goes out to them.
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Hey Mensa, chill little buddy!
I am not in any way defending EK, but just correcting your obvious lack of knowledge on Ch 21.....
If you are concerned that you are not getting paid or receiving 'credit' for post flight duties, then fair enough. However in terms of legal rest etc it IS taken into account, so what's the problem?
Incidentally, whilst I accept that they are horrid and completely knackering, Variations are widely used and accepted in the industry. My old UK outfit regularly used Variations to fly across the pond on 'Bullets'. In fact Virgin Atlantic 'invented' the Florida 1 Variation which was submitted and approved by the UK CAA which is now used by many other operators.
Again I'm not saying its big or clever what EK are doing to us fatigue wise, but it is a current fact of life!! Just keep putting those ASR's in if you are knackered and hope for the best........
I am not in any way defending EK, but just correcting your obvious lack of knowledge on Ch 21.....
If you are concerned that you are not getting paid or receiving 'credit' for post flight duties, then fair enough. However in terms of legal rest etc it IS taken into account, so what's the problem?
Incidentally, whilst I accept that they are horrid and completely knackering, Variations are widely used and accepted in the industry. My old UK outfit regularly used Variations to fly across the pond on 'Bullets'. In fact Virgin Atlantic 'invented' the Florida 1 Variation which was submitted and approved by the UK CAA which is now used by many other operators.
Again I'm not saying its big or clever what EK are doing to us fatigue wise, but it is a current fact of life!! Just keep putting those ASR's in if you are knackered and hope for the best........
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Indeed badly worded, however the 'Voyage' report is only concerned with just that.... the legal 'Voyage'. The reason the GCAA et al is ONLY interested in FDP is to do with the use and calculation of discretion for which the 30 mins after chocks on has no relevance.
The 30 minute thing is purely a scheduling limitation and is applied in exactly the same way as it is in the UK C A P on which the UAE GCAA predicates (copies) its FTL's.
Where the whole system is cheating us (and dare I say it where I agree with Mensa
) is the 'FORCED' early report ie finish the brief 75 mins before ETD.
Its a legal grey area, but I suggest one way around it would be to take it into account should you CHOOSE to exercise discretion and reduce the amount you are willing to use by the amount of minutes you turned up early for at work! Easy........
The 30 minute thing is purely a scheduling limitation and is applied in exactly the same way as it is in the UK C A P on which the UAE GCAA predicates (copies) its FTL's.
Where the whole system is cheating us (and dare I say it where I agree with Mensa
) is the 'FORCED' early report ie finish the brief 75 mins before ETD.Its a legal grey area, but I suggest one way around it would be to take it into account should you CHOOSE to exercise discretion and reduce the amount you are willing to use by the amount of minutes you turned up early for at work! Easy........
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Captain Captain
Apparently the lowlife to which you refer is on the EK yahoo groups and regularly sends messages begging others to do its flights. It calls itself "Captain Captain" - a double title as befitting a tosser of its magnitude.
While its happy to stab any of its fellow crew in the back, its not above asking them to help it out when its roster doesn't suit it. All in an eloquently phrased and polite dialogue of course.
It has on many occasions demonstrated itself to be a vile, scaly scumbag of an individual. If you're on the Dark Side fleet and it asks you for a ROSTER SWAP, tell it to F**K OFF BACK UNDER THE ROCK IT CRAWLED OUT FROM.
While its happy to stab any of its fellow crew in the back, its not above asking them to help it out when its roster doesn't suit it. All in an eloquently phrased and polite dialogue of course.
It has on many occasions demonstrated itself to be a vile, scaly scumbag of an individual. If you're on the Dark Side fleet and it asks you for a ROSTER SWAP, tell it to F**K OFF BACK UNDER THE ROCK IT CRAWLED OUT FROM.