EK 407 Pilot speaks out
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: DXB
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QTRminator I do have some CRM training... I'm just not flying for EK apart being a customer.
What I was trying to say is a very basic thing. Whatever the reasons for which a pilot decides to fly with improper rest, as long as he is conscious of his condition, he's still the one to take the decision, be it within the rules or not.
When it comes to evaluate our condition we are most often left alone. As a professional we are supposed to take the right decisions as many people are relying on us. It still happen that we decide to go beyond the rules (as I did myself) and we can only pray for being out of troubles. Sadly, when **** happens, we can't escape our share of responsibility as at some point we had the decision in our hands... whatever pushed us into that direction.
I used to fly military aircraft and can remember a large amount of incident/accident at the end of long lasting exercises on the way back home...
What I was trying to say is a very basic thing. Whatever the reasons for which a pilot decides to fly with improper rest, as long as he is conscious of his condition, he's still the one to take the decision, be it within the rules or not.
When it comes to evaluate our condition we are most often left alone. As a professional we are supposed to take the right decisions as many people are relying on us. It still happen that we decide to go beyond the rules (as I did myself) and we can only pray for being out of troubles. Sadly, when **** happens, we can't escape our share of responsibility as at some point we had the decision in our hands... whatever pushed us into that direction.
I used to fly military aircraft and can remember a large amount of incident/accident at the end of long lasting exercises on the way back home...
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Having recently joined V Australia after experiencing several other
airline preflight proceedures all I can say is this-
Firstly, the V Australia SOP's are basically Emirates, being established
by mainly ex-Emirate trainers, who know no better.
The entire process is compressed into the last few minutes before
push-back with an idiotic scramble to set up performance and
navigation numbers all mixed together.
This creates chaos and time pressures on the crew to complete
the process, followed by an extensive pre-start checklist before
pushback, the workload in these mad minutes is ridiculous.
If either UAE or Australian regulators had a clue they would demand
modification of these proceedures, as I believe this process was
a definite causal factor in the MEL accident.
The tiredness factor is subject to conjecture, but the proceedures
before start are clearly visible to even an inexperienced regulator.
Sadly the pilots involved are now victims of a badly thought out
pre-start process that has crossed the ocean to V Australia as well.
airline preflight proceedures all I can say is this-
Firstly, the V Australia SOP's are basically Emirates, being established
by mainly ex-Emirate trainers, who know no better.
The entire process is compressed into the last few minutes before
push-back with an idiotic scramble to set up performance and
navigation numbers all mixed together.
This creates chaos and time pressures on the crew to complete
the process, followed by an extensive pre-start checklist before
pushback, the workload in these mad minutes is ridiculous.
If either UAE or Australian regulators had a clue they would demand
modification of these proceedures, as I believe this process was
a definite causal factor in the MEL accident.
The tiredness factor is subject to conjecture, but the proceedures
before start are clearly visible to even an inexperienced regulator.
Sadly the pilots involved are now victims of a badly thought out
pre-start process that has crossed the ocean to V Australia as well.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Unreal,
As you've recently joined V Australia, I'd have thought that you'd be aware of the Australian regulator's (CASA's) Industry Complaints Commissioner, and that if you have a compliant (which you obviously do have) then here are a number of ways that you can let CASA know about it, as follows:
Online: via the online form
Phone: +61 2 6217 1717
Email: [email protected]
Fax: +61 2 6217 1444
Mail: GPO Box 2005, Canberra, ACT 2601, AUSTRALIA
If you want to make a confidential report on a matter affecting aviation safety, you can also ring the CASA hotline 1800 074 737.
See: Civil Aviation Safety Authority - CASA Industry Complaints Commissioner
And 'no', I don't work for CASA.
As you've recently joined V Australia, I'd have thought that you'd be aware of the Australian regulator's (CASA's) Industry Complaints Commissioner, and that if you have a compliant (which you obviously do have) then here are a number of ways that you can let CASA know about it, as follows:
Online: via the online form
Phone: +61 2 6217 1717
Email: [email protected]
Fax: +61 2 6217 1444
Mail: GPO Box 2005, Canberra, ACT 2601, AUSTRALIA
If you want to make a confidential report on a matter affecting aviation safety, you can also ring the CASA hotline 1800 074 737.
See: Civil Aviation Safety Authority - CASA Industry Complaints Commissioner
And 'no', I don't work for CASA.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Oz
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Unreal,
Which part of the EK process do you specifically disagree with? Surely the
management at Emirates, which come from many diverse and safe airlines would have changed the process if they had an issue with it. I believe CX follows a similar process. I have never had an issue with the SOP process and try to not allow scheduling pressures to ever interfere with this crucial procedure. Now mistakes caused by fatigue are another issue.
Which part of the EK process do you specifically disagree with? Surely the
management at Emirates, which come from many diverse and safe airlines would have changed the process if they had an issue with it. I believe CX follows a similar process. I have never had an issue with the SOP process and try to not allow scheduling pressures to ever interfere with this crucial procedure. Now mistakes caused by fatigue are another issue.
Join Date: May 2005
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Funny, I don't find it an 'idiotic scramble'. It's called time management, if you leave a couple of minutes late, then so be it. Taxy times can vary on a normal day by up to 30 mins for example, what's an extra minute or two.
An extensive pre-start check list???? Were you flying for the same EK I am?
Try BA, they don't get the final figures until they are taxying out.........
You just sound plain pi**ed off with your job
An extensive pre-start check list???? Were you flying for the same EK I am?
Try BA, they don't get the final figures until they are taxying out.........
You just sound plain pi**ed off with your job
To be fair to Unreal. When I came over from da bus, my 1st thoughts were that the last 5 mins prior to pushback on the T7, were rather manic compared to the Bus. Everything is compressed somewhat. But after a few years, its easier, and time management takes over like others have said.
Check your stress levels Unreal, is it the right job 4u at Voz??
EGGW
Check your stress levels Unreal, is it the right job 4u at Voz??
EGGW
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Unreal left CX to spend his final couple of years flying back home in Oz. Since joining VA he has done nothing but moan about the ex EK trainers and the VA SOPs. It's hard to adapt to change when you are old.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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411A
.
Very intellectual statement for a manager!
And I'm sure you're doing a fine job! But it does sound a little far fetched. Guess working for a Mickey Mouse outfit it could be possible! And nice to see you lead from the front. Your men must look up to you with love in their eyes.
Bit like your post!
Now that would be none of your business.
You would be too busy managing your little company, flying those 95+ hrs, leading your guys from the front and posting another 6500 crappy posts on pp in business hours!
Please go back to management school, and try and pass this time!
The poor babies.
One wonders...when will they actually grow up and do the job for which they were hired in the first place, with minimal complaint
One wonders...when will they actually grow up and do the job for which they were hired in the first place, with minimal complaint
Very intellectual statement for a manager!
Yes, I'm in management, and in addition to my management duties, always fly a full line schedule, 95+ hours in the 28 day cycle.
I do not ask my guys to do what I am not prepared to do.
Full stop.
I do not ask my guys to do what I am not prepared to do.
Full stop.
To do otherwise is BS in the extreme.
It therefore would appear that EK has some serious flt ops management issues, which need to be sorted, big time.
I am available...but I suspect they simply could not afford my services.
Please go back to management school, and try and pass this time!
Last edited by Tiburon peligroso; 19th Jul 2009 at 12:12.
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As far as I'm concerned, the only people who have a right to bitch about fatigue are the long haul guys who have done it. My last 10 years at Saudia were on the MD-11, and that was a great gig. Always double crew with a crew rest module, first class all the way. Even with all the amenities, my ass was still dragging. I feel sorry for the Emirates guys as some time you just CAN'T rest. There is no solution and it's not gonna change, that's the depressing part.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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I doubt the goy ever gave and interview annonymoursly (how the hell to you spell that!)... If that was what he wanted, better to to it seriously and not to a 3rd rate rag.
To all the super pprune pilots with loads of MS flight sim ULR time. Reality is different. In 20 years of flying, 10 of which is longhaul, I can not even count the times I have checked in nackered. It goes with the job. I have never heard of anyone calling Dubai saying, Sorry mate, be a darling and delay the flight by 5 hours, I need some more rest... Just doesnt happen!
Just slow down and depart 10 min later!!
If EK didnt give incentives to the stations with least delays, maybe that would be one less guy pushing for an ontime departure
To all the super pprune pilots with loads of MS flight sim ULR time. Reality is different. In 20 years of flying, 10 of which is longhaul, I can not even count the times I have checked in nackered. It goes with the job. I have never heard of anyone calling Dubai saying, Sorry mate, be a darling and delay the flight by 5 hours, I need some more rest... Just doesnt happen!
Just slow down and depart 10 min later!!
If EK didnt give incentives to the stations with least delays, maybe that would be one less guy pushing for an ontime departure
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the only people who have a right to bitch about fatigue are the long haul guys who have done it
I was sometime helping a friend used to do these flights, flying with him or just helping him to prepare the aircraft. One night he felt asleep on his wheel while towing the plane and we both went out of the taxiway... 15 mins later he was taking of for a 6 hours trip with underpaid foreign medical staff, all working hard at saving somebody's life. 2 years ago another friend of mine lost his life with 4 doctors on board, hitting end of runway trees during a late departure. This was one of the rare occasions their remarkable job was noticed in the newspapers.
This is not long haul flights but at the end of the day when you are waking up drinking 2 red bulls and can't copy a freq without asking ATC to repeat it, I think there is a threat to flight safety, and I used to call it fatigue.
Last edited by S.F.L.Y; 22nd Jul 2009 at 21:52.
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Between flying 95 hours a month, doing a (self admitted) marvelous job in management, having an opinion on just about everything, playing the cello, designing plastic hip joints and discovering new cures for cancer, I'm just not sure where 411A gets the spare time to post his 6,500+ missives.
Oh..slight thread drift.
My bad.
Bygones.
I withdraw that statement your honour.
Oh..slight thread drift.
My bad.
Bygones.
I withdraw that statement your honour.