EK 407 Pilot speaks out
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I may have missed something but it looks weird to support someone who openly claim having such a big lack of rest... if this is true resignation is not the worst thing that they could have faced.
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The Facts remain that these clowns came within inches of killing 250 people. Did you ask yourself that if they were so good why did they push back 13 min early. Don't you think that V speeds in the 135-140 range or Flex 70 ish would not have jumped off the PFD and told you something was not right at the start of a 13 hr flt. Those that entertain that this was a simple mistake are scary. I hope like hell my kids don't fly with you..............
Wind up bits trimmed EGGW
Wind up bits trimmed EGGW
Last edited by EGGW; 15th Jul 2009 at 14:17. Reason: Wind up
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Those that entertain that this was a simple mistake are scary.
This is called....losing sight of reality altogether and being in a complete state of denial.
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Thankyou, 411A, that is possibly the most intelligent and relevant thing I have ever seen you post in the ME forum.
Jakedog despite your claim, you don't seem to be offering any kind of particularly clever "bait". I'm guessing you're a reasonably new joiner (not from start date but from attitude - could be wrong though) and as such somewhat, shall we say, unaware due to lack of proper training and proper "indoctrination" at EK.
Chainsaw, I joined nearly 9 years ago. I change handles regularly for security reasons. This handle is dedicated to our Glorious Leader (I thought that was obvious but maybe it isn't) but I do admit that after last night's booze-fueled rubbish it is possibly even more apt. Sorry for that......
I believe the 99hrs was flown prior to the commencement of the event sector, making it roughly 113 for the month (under their extremely dodgy rolling totals scheme).
Jakedog despite your claim, you don't seem to be offering any kind of particularly clever "bait". I'm guessing you're a reasonably new joiner (not from start date but from attitude - could be wrong though) and as such somewhat, shall we say, unaware due to lack of proper training and proper "indoctrination" at EK.
Chainsaw, I joined nearly 9 years ago. I change handles regularly for security reasons. This handle is dedicated to our Glorious Leader (I thought that was obvious but maybe it isn't) but I do admit that after last night's booze-fueled rubbish it is possibly even more apt. Sorry for that......
99 hours in the previous 30 days. Barely under the legal limit yet not even close to the ''sanity'' limit.
Last edited by IdleRetard; 15th Jul 2009 at 05:39. Reason: adjustment of alcohol-fuelled exuberance
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IdleRetard, join date May 2009, with 9 posts:
Your join date and 'postometer' seem to suggest that you're a resonably new joiner too, don't you think?
OK IR......thanks! Explanation accepted!
You're obviously a reasonably new joiner and as such fcuking clueless due to lack of proper training at EK.
Your join date and 'postometer' seem to suggest that you're a resonably new joiner too, don't you think?
OK IR......thanks! Explanation accepted!
Last edited by chainsaw; 15th Jul 2009 at 07:38. Reason: See IR's 'amended' post at #28 above
Not that I can add anything meaningful to this discussion........
but missing it by 100 tonnes?
No matter what the reason..3/5 hrs sleep whatever you gotta go.
You can't let this slide.
Idleretard (italics for your convenience) you could not have picked a better user name.
Nomen est omen, the name is a sign.
Do yourself a favor and p*ss off.
but missing it by 100 tonnes?
No matter what the reason..3/5 hrs sleep whatever you gotta go.
You can't let this slide.
Idleretard (italics for your convenience) you could not have picked a better user name.
Nomen est omen, the name is a sign.
Do yourself a favor and p*ss off.
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Just to recap the facts.
3.5 hours sleep yes. But why? you have to ask.... not because the pilot was out partying but because he was unable to achieve the required rest, for whatever reason.
99 hours in the previous 30 days. Barely under the legal limit yet not even close to the ''sanity'' limit.
2 pilots with excellent backgrounds and by all accounts good pilots, making such a critical error!
CCQ flying on 3 types, each with COMPLETELY different takeoff and landing characteristics. Coupled with a Rostering Department that does not give a rats ass about ''actual' versus GCAA regulated minimum requirements. (what makes common sense versus the idiotic rules)
Stress levels that have exceeded what should be acceptable for an airline that considers Flight Safety a priority.
4 pilots missing the error, (2 of whom really would have had to be involved in the preflight process to pick up the error)
A change in policy after this accident that does not allow augmenting pilots to do anything of importance prior to, or during the initial phases of the flight. Therefore, the Company acknowledges that things were askew prior to the accident.
Constant and almost unbelievable distractions in the flight deck prior to departure. Hence the 'Company mandated' policy changes that preclude even 'intelligent' and required interuptions to keep the Commander aware of issues that affect his flight.
Forced resignations, even before the preliminary results of the investigation were reached. Hence, TCAS lied about the resignations. (also 'Firings' of other pilots and then their subsequent 'Rehiring'.) Kind of demonstrates the managerial approach to ANY errors we make.
An input error into the laptop and or MCDU.
A salvaged takeoff, albeit by the smallest margin.
A subsequent safe landing under extremely stressful conditions.
Allegedly bitching on the CVR about the Company and the massive and sudden negative changes affecting pilots. A good management team would discuss why pilots are suddenly questioning this airlines direction and it's leadership, because it is quite common nowadays at Emirates Airline.
A company that decrees that pilots should be professional enough to overcome the stresses and distractions of all negative declines in T&C's, yet on the other hand, they send out an email stating that evidence proves that pilots about to go on Leave are more prone to make mistakes. Geeze, the 2 stressors are not even in the same category!
Management led by an individual who truly believes we are his slaves. And just under his control is one man who has sold his soul for a profit and another man who is by all accounts an idiot, yet he elects to wear an EK pilots uniform in spite of the fact, he is not a qualified pilot.
We should sending our fellow colleague (the man unlucky enough to make a mistake which was in large part due to our management clowns) a letter of congratulations for highlighting the obvious and perilous inadequacies of this airline. He might have an agenda but that does not mean he is not morally correct. At the very least, the exposed truths might lead to a safer operation and might even positively affect our T&C's, although, with the likes of our management , that is highly unlikely.
Some people jump on this pilot for what a newspaper article said about HIM saving the flight, yet these same people then state that reporters distort and mislead in their articles, to 'sensationalize' a story. You can't have it both ways.
I am embarassed by the posts of some of my fellow pilots regarding this accident. There but for the Grace of God (or Allah), go you!!!!
3.5 hours sleep yes. But why? you have to ask.... not because the pilot was out partying but because he was unable to achieve the required rest, for whatever reason.
99 hours in the previous 30 days. Barely under the legal limit yet not even close to the ''sanity'' limit.
2 pilots with excellent backgrounds and by all accounts good pilots, making such a critical error!
CCQ flying on 3 types, each with COMPLETELY different takeoff and landing characteristics. Coupled with a Rostering Department that does not give a rats ass about ''actual' versus GCAA regulated minimum requirements. (what makes common sense versus the idiotic rules)
Stress levels that have exceeded what should be acceptable for an airline that considers Flight Safety a priority.
4 pilots missing the error, (2 of whom really would have had to be involved in the preflight process to pick up the error)
A change in policy after this accident that does not allow augmenting pilots to do anything of importance prior to, or during the initial phases of the flight. Therefore, the Company acknowledges that things were askew prior to the accident.
Constant and almost unbelievable distractions in the flight deck prior to departure. Hence the 'Company mandated' policy changes that preclude even 'intelligent' and required interuptions to keep the Commander aware of issues that affect his flight.
Forced resignations, even before the preliminary results of the investigation were reached. Hence, TCAS lied about the resignations. (also 'Firings' of other pilots and then their subsequent 'Rehiring'.) Kind of demonstrates the managerial approach to ANY errors we make.
An input error into the laptop and or MCDU.
A salvaged takeoff, albeit by the smallest margin.
A subsequent safe landing under extremely stressful conditions.
Allegedly bitching on the CVR about the Company and the massive and sudden negative changes affecting pilots. A good management team would discuss why pilots are suddenly questioning this airlines direction and it's leadership, because it is quite common nowadays at Emirates Airline.
A company that decrees that pilots should be professional enough to overcome the stresses and distractions of all negative declines in T&C's, yet on the other hand, they send out an email stating that evidence proves that pilots about to go on Leave are more prone to make mistakes. Geeze, the 2 stressors are not even in the same category!
Management led by an individual who truly believes we are his slaves. And just under his control is one man who has sold his soul for a profit and another man who is by all accounts an idiot, yet he elects to wear an EK pilots uniform in spite of the fact, he is not a qualified pilot.
We should sending our fellow colleague (the man unlucky enough to make a mistake which was in large part due to our management clowns) a letter of congratulations for highlighting the obvious and perilous inadequacies of this airline. He might have an agenda but that does not mean he is not morally correct. At the very least, the exposed truths might lead to a safer operation and might even positively affect our T&C's, although, with the likes of our management , that is highly unlikely.
Some people jump on this pilot for what a newspaper article said about HIM saving the flight, yet these same people then state that reporters distort and mislead in their articles, to 'sensationalize' a story. You can't have it both ways.
I am embarassed by the posts of some of my fellow pilots regarding this accident. There but for the Grace of God (or Allah), go you!!!!
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Hmmm, looks like a company in serious need of an audit of their flight operations department.
I wonder...could that aforementioned audit, were it actually to happen, result in the downgrading of EK, indeed the whole UAE, to FAA category two?
On second thought, cancel the audit, or even the mention of same.
Still....a few more incidents (or accidents) and the FAA is bound to have a closer look.
I would't look very good to have the USA's welcome mat suddenly withdrawn.
I wonder...could that aforementioned audit, were it actually to happen, result in the downgrading of EK, indeed the whole UAE, to FAA category two?
On second thought, cancel the audit, or even the mention of same.
Still....a few more incidents (or accidents) and the FAA is bound to have a closer look.
I would't look very good to have the USA's welcome mat suddenly withdrawn.
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3.5 hours sleep yes. But why? you have to ask.... not because the pilot was out partying but because he was unable to achieve the required rest, for whatever reason.
Now tell me what does the 99 barely legal hours, the excellent background of the pilots, the flight department, the changes of company policy, the forced resignations and the company management have to do with the decision of flying without appropriate rest ? This is an individual decision which has nothing to do with all what you've mentioned. The grown-up individual is the only responsible person for such decisions, whatever is the quality of the company behind it. Don't mix the things.
I doubt EK's policy is to fly with such lack of rest.
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Mensaboy - you miss the obvious. 3.5 hours rest in 24 is unfit to fly and under the terms of the FOM if you are fatigued then you may not fly!!
Also 100 tonnes discrepancy - try following the loadsheet confirmation procedures in the FCOM, it works well!!
Yes, they did a good job of recovering the situation but it was an almighty cock up to start with.. And before you get all arsy - yes, I do make mistakes but I find that the SOPS trap the errors. That's why we have them isn't it??
I'm trying to work out the 3 COMPLETELY different take-off characteristics you waffle on about.. 332,343,345 I find pulling the stick back a bit at 'rotate' works quite well - obviously the heavier she is the more inertia but to say what you did is garbage
Also 100 tonnes discrepancy - try following the loadsheet confirmation procedures in the FCOM, it works well!!
Yes, they did a good job of recovering the situation but it was an almighty cock up to start with.. And before you get all arsy - yes, I do make mistakes but I find that the SOPS trap the errors. That's why we have them isn't it??
I'm trying to work out the 3 COMPLETELY different take-off characteristics you waffle on about.. 332,343,345 I find pulling the stick back a bit at 'rotate' works quite well - obviously the heavier she is the more inertia but to say what you did is garbage
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Just to clarify the Emirates flight duty limits, that's 100 hrs block time in a rolling 28 days. So if you actually start a flight under 100 hrs you can keep on flying as long as they like, any one for a 17.5 hr LA?
The company also went though a phase of saying that bunk time was not included in the 100 hrs!
But in the words of TCAS and the Non-Flying horse
"Fatigue is not a problem in Emirates"
All I'm thankful for is this near accident happened in Oz and the company can't just pay to sweep it under the carpet!
The company also went though a phase of saying that bunk time was not included in the 100 hrs!
But in the words of TCAS and the Non-Flying horse
"Fatigue is not a problem in Emirates"
All I'm thankful for is this near accident happened in Oz and the company can't just pay to sweep it under the carpet!
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Hmmm, looks like a company in serious need of an audit of their flight operations department.
I wonder...could that aforementioned audit, were it actually to happen, result in the downgrading of EK, indeed the whole UAE, to FAA category two?
I wonder...could that aforementioned audit, were it actually to happen, result in the downgrading of EK, indeed the whole UAE, to FAA category two?
We're all waiting for the blessing of your FAA, who gives us the shining examples of the likes of ValuJet, Buffalo-commuters and 90 year old grannies as flight attendants who are on board especially "for the passengers' safety" - not to forget yourself as the forerunner of American aviation supremacy.
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Very true aiming point, which is why I point out that following SOP is a good and necessary thing.. Nothing to do with stones and glasshouses and all that BS - suffering a catastrophic failure is one thing, not following SOP is another
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I dare say 99% of pilots at EK have headed off on flights with far far less sleep than they would have preferred for one reason or another and probably on many occassions as well.
99.9% of Emirates pilots would have still gone to work in Melbourne, a downroute station, under similar circumstances
99.9% of Emirates pilots would have still gone to work in Melbourne, a downroute station, under similar circumstances
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I understand what you're saying AP - the holes lining up and all that, and yes we all make mistakes in SOPS from time to time, but for 2 guys to get what is arguably the most important check of flight deck prep wrong, is to put it bluntly - ODD... And a c0ck up of high magnitude.
I'm not saying there aren't other factors involved - but when you sign that techlog and loadsheet it's YOU who bears the responsibility to get it right..
I'm not saying there aren't other factors involved - but when you sign that techlog and loadsheet it's YOU who bears the responsibility to get it right..
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Sfly,
While it may not be 99.9% it's probably close and whatever your disbelievement is, it's a reality at Emirates. Flying tired and fatigue management are a constant challenge at this place.
Pool, try this it works wonders for the drivel 411A spews.
This message is hidden because 411A is on your ignore list.
Regards
IH
While it may not be 99.9% it's probably close and whatever your disbelievement is, it's a reality at Emirates. Flying tired and fatigue management are a constant challenge at this place.
Pool, try this it works wonders for the drivel 411A spews.
This message is hidden because 411A is on your ignore list.
Regards
IH
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A380-800 Driver is correct, the pattern he mentions goes against your body and it is very difficult to be rested. It is probably the hardest sector on the network to adjust to.
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Guys, having less than 3 hours of rest before a long range flight is a major threat to aviation safety. No matter what the airline is saying about your complaints, you are still exposed as you will be the only one to be held responsible and accountable of flying under such circumstances and believe me, they will know how to remind it to you in due time.
Accepting to fly in these conditions means accepting the responsibilities and the associated risks. Not willing to make that phone call because you want to keep your job is understandable, but you have to keep in mind that this will cost you big responsibilities. In the end you will be the one to accept operating in known unsafe conditions, and your personal reasons for taking that **** will not discharge you.
Accepting to fly in these conditions means accepting the responsibilities and the associated risks. Not willing to make that phone call because you want to keep your job is understandable, but you have to keep in mind that this will cost you big responsibilities. In the end you will be the one to accept operating in known unsafe conditions, and your personal reasons for taking that **** will not discharge you.
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SFlY,
How about you go and tell the EK management to do something about it?
Flights are daliy with as little rest as possible, time difference huge and at the and of the day somebody will have to fly.
You should try to apply for EK pilot group spokesman position...
How about you go and tell the EK management to do something about it?
Flights are daliy with as little rest as possible, time difference huge and at the and of the day somebody will have to fly.
You should try to apply for EK pilot group spokesman position...
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lack of understanding to others ...
Gents,
I am just a simple LAE who is surprised that some of you don't know about basic latin : errare humanum est ...
Do the same persons know about Murphy Law ?
Don't you think that the most important is to learn from others mistakes not to do them again ?
It is easy to blame others !
Do you , sometimes , think about the Engineers , Technicians and Mechanics who are working more than 12 hours per day with a temperature more than 50 celsius to make you fly in the best conditions as they can ...?
Brgds.
An ex-EK LAE.
I am just a simple LAE who is surprised that some of you don't know about basic latin : errare humanum est ...
Do the same persons know about Murphy Law ?
Don't you think that the most important is to learn from others mistakes not to do them again ?
It is easy to blame others !
Do you , sometimes , think about the Engineers , Technicians and Mechanics who are working more than 12 hours per day with a temperature more than 50 celsius to make you fly in the best conditions as they can ...?
Brgds.
An ex-EK LAE.