Legality of Missed approach considerations
LR,
One of the requirements, at least in the US, for the acceptance of a Visual Approach is that you can maintain VFR. The other 2 requirements are that you are within 30 miles of the destination airport and have either the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight.
If you don't feel confident about any of those conditions, don't accept a VA clearance. Sure, ATC in the US generally takes it for granted that arriving aircraft in CAVOK, will most likely do a visual approach but they're also aware that overseas carriers have different SOP's.
Maybe I've got a simple view about this but aircraft the size of a widebody are usually given a far longer final than say an RJ. So there should be adequate time to simply ask ATC, "For planning purposes, can you give us an idea of what Missed Approach instructions we might expect"?
One of the requirements, at least in the US, for the acceptance of a Visual Approach is that you can maintain VFR. The other 2 requirements are that you are within 30 miles of the destination airport and have either the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight.
If you don't feel confident about any of those conditions, don't accept a VA clearance. Sure, ATC in the US generally takes it for granted that arriving aircraft in CAVOK, will most likely do a visual approach but they're also aware that overseas carriers have different SOP's.
Maybe I've got a simple view about this but aircraft the size of a widebody are usually given a far longer final than say an RJ. So there should be adequate time to simply ask ATC, "For planning purposes, can you give us an idea of what Missed Approach instructions we might expect"?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with all what you guys are saying. As you can see, I dont know much about visual approaches as my company forbid it. I can honestly tell you (apart from the training at flight school), I probably have flown maybe 3 visual approaches on a jet in all my career.
Loosing a runway visually can happen very easily regardless of ATC. I have seen ATC in places like Egypt clear aircraft for a visual approach during +RN and the aircraft requesting it was more than 30 NM away from the airport. So unlike the US ATCs (that do use common sense), alot of ATC controllers are more than happy to clear you for a visual approach just to switch you over to the tower freq.
LR
Loosing a runway visually can happen very easily regardless of ATC. I have seen ATC in places like Egypt clear aircraft for a visual approach during +RN and the aircraft requesting it was more than 30 NM away from the airport. So unlike the US ATCs (that do use common sense), alot of ATC controllers are more than happy to clear you for a visual approach just to switch you over to the tower freq.
LR
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In that case, you simply refuse to accept the visual approach, LR. Air Traffic Control is a misnomer - it's a service, with you the customer, and it's up to you in situations like that to demand the service from them that you require.
Re the number of visual approaches you've (not) done: I hope the new 'hands on' sim. session Training Dept have planned for the near future will at least partially address that. Use that to practise as many as you can fit in, for you might need to do one in anger one day, when getting it right might prove to be quite literally the difference between life and death for you and the people you're carrying.
Unlikely, I hear some say? So was the possibility of a flock of geese taking out both engines of an A320 as it climbed through 3,000' out of LGA. Imagine the situation if the pilot of the A320 had only done two or three visual approaches in his airline career, which, thanks to the "maximum use of automation at all times" policy (which I think your airline practises) is becoming a real possibility over the next few years.
Re the number of visual approaches you've (not) done: I hope the new 'hands on' sim. session Training Dept have planned for the near future will at least partially address that. Use that to practise as many as you can fit in, for you might need to do one in anger one day, when getting it right might prove to be quite literally the difference between life and death for you and the people you're carrying.
Unlikely, I hear some say? So was the possibility of a flock of geese taking out both engines of an A320 as it climbed through 3,000' out of LGA. Imagine the situation if the pilot of the A320 had only done two or three visual approaches in his airline career, which, thanks to the "maximum use of automation at all times" policy (which I think your airline practises) is becoming a real possibility over the next few years.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: on the road
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Gents,
reading this thread - I have some questions, too:
- what kind of missed approach do you fly when you are cleared for it but you experience a radio comm fail.
- ... swing over to the parallel Rwy, after executing an ILS (I think this is a visual, too)
- and most important: what is visual approach good for ( Pilot and ATC wise)?
cheers
reading this thread - I have some questions, too:
- what kind of missed approach do you fly when you are cleared for it but you experience a radio comm fail.
- ... swing over to the parallel Rwy, after executing an ILS (I think this is a visual, too)
- and most important: what is visual approach good for ( Pilot and ATC wise)?
cheers
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sand Pit
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Visual app benefits:
Pilots:
in most cases saves fuel, since you don't have to do an full instrument app expedites and simplyfies the process.
ATC: Expedites and Simplyfies the flow of traffic, and they give pilots the responsibilities of traffic separation and ground clearence.
IF you experienc radio comm failure on a sidestep manouvre (ie. JFK) you have to follow the missed app of the rwy you shot the app just as if were a circle to land app.
on a visual app you execute a pattern traffic @ 1500 ft (high performance A/C as opposed to 1000 ft for non high perf) and expect light gun sgnals from the tower.
of course you would squak 7600 and they would know you have lost your radios.
If its before any clearence for an app to any rwy IFR procedures apply.
you are cleared for any approach at the airport and you should adjust your ETA acording to your filed flight plan to within 3 minutes, even if this involves holding at the IAF.
If you have recieved a clearance or an "expect" any app, you should fly that one at your destination airport.
Pilots:
in most cases saves fuel, since you don't have to do an full instrument app expedites and simplyfies the process.
ATC: Expedites and Simplyfies the flow of traffic, and they give pilots the responsibilities of traffic separation and ground clearence.
IF you experienc radio comm failure on a sidestep manouvre (ie. JFK) you have to follow the missed app of the rwy you shot the app just as if were a circle to land app.
on a visual app you execute a pattern traffic @ 1500 ft (high performance A/C as opposed to 1000 ft for non high perf) and expect light gun sgnals from the tower.
of course you would squak 7600 and they would know you have lost your radios.
If its before any clearence for an app to any rwy IFR procedures apply.
you are cleared for any approach at the airport and you should adjust your ETA acording to your filed flight plan to within 3 minutes, even if this involves holding at the IAF.
If you have recieved a clearance or an "expect" any app, you should fly that one at your destination airport.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tunisia
Age: 71
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MA
Hello Ladies and Gents,
Not that I give a sh#t about being a long time check airman, I quit doing visuals long ago and while I can't tell someone not to do them, 1 screwup, descent below gs or vasi papi, and it was a failure. To allow ATC to take a coffee break, to allow yourself a higher percentage of unstabilized apps during configuration and speed changes is not the best way of doing things IMHO.
Not that I give a sh#t about being a long time check airman, I quit doing visuals long ago and while I can't tell someone not to do them, 1 screwup, descent below gs or vasi papi, and it was a failure. To allow ATC to take a coffee break, to allow yourself a higher percentage of unstabilized apps during configuration and speed changes is not the best way of doing things IMHO.
