EK Commanders Conference
Join Date: May 2008
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So guys lets review your duty for tomorow.
Conference time MB1 from 10 to 12 AM.
Uniform plus hat
Own car or taxi, with your own car remember to pay your parking fees because more than 2 hours... Anyway it's gonna cost you.
13 PM debrieffing on PPRUNE, to share with your colleagues.
I'm so envious, have fun guys !
Just want to know how many no show
Conference time MB1 from 10 to 12 AM.
Uniform plus hat
Own car or taxi, with your own car remember to pay your parking fees because more than 2 hours... Anyway it's gonna cost you.
13 PM debrieffing on PPRUNE, to share with your colleagues.
I'm so envious, have fun guys !
Just want to know how many no show
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In response to Pools request a quick summary of todays MB1 meeting .
Approximately 12 line captains attended ( 1 no show to my knowledge ). DSVP/ SVP training / SVP Fleet / Chief training Capt A330/340 / Chief Pilot 777 all in attendance.
Attendance register taken .
DSVP opened the proceedings in an informal manner setting the tone for what was actually after a period of time a refreshingly open and frank two way exchange of information and views. The first hr or so was basically a lecture to the pilots of why the management now feels the need to meet all Captains on a personal level over the next 6 weeks. The senior management have cleared their diaries to achieve this goal. They make it clear from the outset that the meeting is NOT as a result of the MEL incident but as a result of numerous incidents over the past few months both operationally and downroute. Four of five examples were provided with many more apparently available . ( Mel tailscrape / recent 777 go around in MAN / Crew behaviour in KUL/ BKK Alcohol test failure ) were used. A short video clip of the MEL tailscape is shown clearly showing the aircraft tail striking the ground 3 times before leaving the paved surface. DSVP was also in receipt of the first draft of the ATSB report and is flying to MEL on saturday to attend a news conference ! It would appear the general view of the senior management is that there needs to be an immediate change in attitude and performance of a very small minority of line pilots who are letting down the rest of the pilots. The only way to help identify this minority of guys is to ' Carpet bomb ' the entire pilot workforce with a zero tolerance approach to most aspects of our day to day working life from our appearance infront of pax to the following and adhearance of sop's in an attempt to help identify the guys who aren't coming up to scratch. SVP training identified some changes which will soon be coming in . On the spot unrostered line checks up to 2 months before your datum is up and a once year one hr MANUAL sim session flown without any automatics to improve general flying skills . He also emphasized the reasoning behind changing the format of the current PPC and changes to Peleysis. SVP fleet talked about the conduct of crew downroute and levels of behaviour which are expected. Chief pilot 777 touched on 'personal skills' required to be a good Capt.
In the second hr the floor was opened up to the guys to offer their views and possible suggestions on what had just been talked about. Frank views and opinions were exchanged on many issues including the perceived lack of management support with regard to Housing and personal issues / rostering issues / general lack of moral on the line and training standards of new F/O's . The management listened to the views of the guys and although they offered a difference of opinion regarding some issues I honestly think some things were taken on board and will be followed up.
The final 10 minutes or so was used by DSVP to summerise what the company is doing in response to the MEL incident ( setting up working parties to look into Augmented Ops / SOP changes for example) which they openly admit has been a big wake up call for them and to basically to tell the guys to get our acts together,act professionally at all times and follow SOP's !
In summary it is obvious to me that the Senior Flight Ops management are feeling the heat and are under intense pressure to explain a string of recent incidents which the President is not happy about. These meetings are designed to address many issues which the Flight Ops management feel can no longer be tolerated. The first hr of the meeting is a lecture from the Managenent, the second hr was definately an opportunity to air some current frustrations and discuss them in an honest and frank mannor. We were the first group of guys to be addressed and definately the "guinea pigs". Expect a slicker presentation as time goes by from the Management but at least they did present a small window of opportunity to address current issues which we are unhappy with .
Thats it folks - I've tried to keep it fairly neutral . Make your own minds up . Off to the pub to watch the footy !
Approximately 12 line captains attended ( 1 no show to my knowledge ). DSVP/ SVP training / SVP Fleet / Chief training Capt A330/340 / Chief Pilot 777 all in attendance.
Attendance register taken .
DSVP opened the proceedings in an informal manner setting the tone for what was actually after a period of time a refreshingly open and frank two way exchange of information and views. The first hr or so was basically a lecture to the pilots of why the management now feels the need to meet all Captains on a personal level over the next 6 weeks. The senior management have cleared their diaries to achieve this goal. They make it clear from the outset that the meeting is NOT as a result of the MEL incident but as a result of numerous incidents over the past few months both operationally and downroute. Four of five examples were provided with many more apparently available . ( Mel tailscrape / recent 777 go around in MAN / Crew behaviour in KUL/ BKK Alcohol test failure ) were used. A short video clip of the MEL tailscape is shown clearly showing the aircraft tail striking the ground 3 times before leaving the paved surface. DSVP was also in receipt of the first draft of the ATSB report and is flying to MEL on saturday to attend a news conference ! It would appear the general view of the senior management is that there needs to be an immediate change in attitude and performance of a very small minority of line pilots who are letting down the rest of the pilots. The only way to help identify this minority of guys is to ' Carpet bomb ' the entire pilot workforce with a zero tolerance approach to most aspects of our day to day working life from our appearance infront of pax to the following and adhearance of sop's in an attempt to help identify the guys who aren't coming up to scratch. SVP training identified some changes which will soon be coming in . On the spot unrostered line checks up to 2 months before your datum is up and a once year one hr MANUAL sim session flown without any automatics to improve general flying skills . He also emphasized the reasoning behind changing the format of the current PPC and changes to Peleysis. SVP fleet talked about the conduct of crew downroute and levels of behaviour which are expected. Chief pilot 777 touched on 'personal skills' required to be a good Capt.
In the second hr the floor was opened up to the guys to offer their views and possible suggestions on what had just been talked about. Frank views and opinions were exchanged on many issues including the perceived lack of management support with regard to Housing and personal issues / rostering issues / general lack of moral on the line and training standards of new F/O's . The management listened to the views of the guys and although they offered a difference of opinion regarding some issues I honestly think some things were taken on board and will be followed up.
The final 10 minutes or so was used by DSVP to summerise what the company is doing in response to the MEL incident ( setting up working parties to look into Augmented Ops / SOP changes for example) which they openly admit has been a big wake up call for them and to basically to tell the guys to get our acts together,act professionally at all times and follow SOP's !
In summary it is obvious to me that the Senior Flight Ops management are feeling the heat and are under intense pressure to explain a string of recent incidents which the President is not happy about. These meetings are designed to address many issues which the Flight Ops management feel can no longer be tolerated. The first hr of the meeting is a lecture from the Managenent, the second hr was definately an opportunity to air some current frustrations and discuss them in an honest and frank mannor. We were the first group of guys to be addressed and definately the "guinea pigs". Expect a slicker presentation as time goes by from the Management but at least they did present a small window of opportunity to address current issues which we are unhappy with .
Thats it folks - I've tried to keep it fairly neutral . Make your own minds up . Off to the pub to watch the footy !
Last edited by dofus; 19th Apr 2009 at 15:24.
Thanks dofus. You might want to start thinking now about what you'll say to Ed and Al when they work out which of the twelve Commanders at the MB1 meeting is you.
It's happened before. The delete button might be your friend.
It's happened before. The delete button might be your friend.
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Did they actually say
Back in school eh? The prefects will ambush you and hand out detentions.
Love the comment
On the spot unrostered line checks up to 2 months before your datum is up and a once year one hr MANUAL sim session flown without any automatics to improve general flying skills .
Love the comment
Chief pilot 777 touched on 'personal skills' required to be a good Capt.
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Thanks Dofus. Great stuff.
Listening to the comments by most FCM in recent weeks, most of us are very very upset. Not only with the changes itself, but also the WAY they did it. Lots of unrepairable damage has been done.
After reading Dofus meeting notes, I don't know if they got the message. We will see the coming months how they try to polish up their image. The start is definately -again- not a good one. If part of the overall problem are the FO's then they could at least invite them as well.
Typical for EK's OPS management style : only half thinking before acting.
Another one: "Zero tollerance". Let's call it the Al Baker way. A big bunch of us would never want to fly for QR.
I hope for EK the aviation industry does not pick up too fast. The exodus might just be too big to handle...
Listening to the comments by most FCM in recent weeks, most of us are very very upset. Not only with the changes itself, but also the WAY they did it. Lots of unrepairable damage has been done.
After reading Dofus meeting notes, I don't know if they got the message. We will see the coming months how they try to polish up their image. The start is definately -again- not a good one. If part of the overall problem are the FO's then they could at least invite them as well.
Typical for EK's OPS management style : only half thinking before acting.
Another one: "Zero tollerance". Let's call it the Al Baker way. A big bunch of us would never want to fly for QR.
I hope for EK the aviation industry does not pick up too fast. The exodus might just be too big to handle...
Last edited by 5star; 20th Apr 2009 at 08:10.
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Gentleman, the way things are changing at Qr for the good, monthly bidding, etc etc and going downhill at EK, maybe EK management is trying to copy some of QR pratices in order to not become the new Gulf Air of the region. Before you critize QR ,you should look at yourselves
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Why the F/O should have a looooooowwwww morale ?
Only because of :
# Delayed upgrade
# Flying with high profile DECs (sometime only)
# Less 15 % salary average
# Less days OFF per month
# No way to commute due to rostering new restrictions
# Long term temporary accomodation (Yes it's possible)
# No way to escape from company accomodation because no more utilities allowance
# Documentation dispatch to handle after flight
# Not invited to meetings
(joking)
What should be your morale after that ?
Good, you have a job Still...
Only because of :
# Delayed upgrade
# Flying with high profile DECs (sometime only)
# Less 15 % salary average
# Less days OFF per month
# No way to commute due to rostering new restrictions
# Long term temporary accomodation (Yes it's possible)
# No way to escape from company accomodation because no more utilities allowance
# Documentation dispatch to handle after flight
# Not invited to meetings
(joking)What should be your morale after that ?
Good, you have a job
Still...
Last edited by Volverine; 22nd Apr 2009 at 09:44.
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Some points to raise...
For those searching for things to discuss with management in no particular order of priority!
1. The worrying trend towards removing cash meal allowances on layovers and replacing them with ill-timed, room-service-less 'all inclusive packages'.
2. The knee jerk reaction to the MEL incident calling for the pilots to 'act more professionally' when the culpability clearly begins with management.
3. That management would be well advised to study carefully the article they published on the FOIP by Robert Scott - all of it applies to EK, particularly those paragraphs regarding management.
4. That eventually management are going to have to wake up and make some positive, pro-active changes or there will be more high profile incidents - which won't be easily solved by summarily firing those at the front of the aircraft.
And difficult as it may be, try not to yell at them while getting the message across. But then again...
1. The worrying trend towards removing cash meal allowances on layovers and replacing them with ill-timed, room-service-less 'all inclusive packages'.
2. The knee jerk reaction to the MEL incident calling for the pilots to 'act more professionally' when the culpability clearly begins with management.
3. That management would be well advised to study carefully the article they published on the FOIP by Robert Scott - all of it applies to EK, particularly those paragraphs regarding management.
4. That eventually management are going to have to wake up and make some positive, pro-active changes or there will be more high profile incidents - which won't be easily solved by summarily firing those at the front of the aircraft.
And difficult as it may be, try not to yell at them while getting the message across. But then again...
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One thing this thread could be used for is for FO's to bring up points that could help insure that that second hour of the meetings are used effectively, IE don't waste time asking the same ? every meeting
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Gents,
If we are going to be discussing morale with mgt - lets make sure we know how to spell it M-O-R-A-L-E.
Back to topic:
I dont know how many times I have heard it said by pilots here in the past and now perhaps its happened: "...its only a matter of time before fatigue causes an accident/incident..."
24 hr layovers in GRU & NYC - not enough.
Two man crew to PEK - not enough...etc, etc.
The mistakes may not happen on said pairing - but cumulatively it will eventually catch up.
f.
If we are going to be discussing morale with mgt - lets make sure we know how to spell it M-O-R-A-L-E.
Back to topic:
I dont know how many times I have heard it said by pilots here in the past and now perhaps its happened: "...its only a matter of time before fatigue causes an accident/incident..."
24 hr layovers in GRU & NYC - not enough.
Two man crew to PEK - not enough...etc, etc.
The mistakes may not happen on said pairing - but cumulatively it will eventually catch up.
f.
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For the Captains going in to try and deal with the EK thiefs , could you ask/deal with the matter on our allowences . The new trend that they now try to implement is that you will not get a cent on the layover but eat in the hotel. HKG, LOS already in place and I tell you its a mess.LOS the allocated restaurant the food is below standard and it takes forever to come to the table , 2 hrs after a long duty ! HKG you have to eat in restaurant and no room service , The crew was so tired , missed , breakfast and lunch and ended up not having anything to eat on the layover as the places where closed when the crew where awake.
So you have to break your rest to eat at the hotel times !!!
What next , do they want us to crash planes , its as if they are doing their best to keep us tired with low morale.
So you have to break your rest to eat at the hotel times !!!
What next , do they want us to crash planes , its as if they are doing their best to keep us tired with low morale.
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Modesh09, if all of these that you have mentioned happened on your flights,
did you not file an ASR? Judging by what is happening crew not being able to eat when the hotel wants us to and not being able to have room service IS in need of an ASR.
Safety standards have been reduced by not allowing crew to eat when and where they need to.
By the way F/Os are allowed to file an ASR as well!
Oz
did you not file an ASR? Judging by what is happening crew not being able to eat when the hotel wants us to and not being able to have room service IS in need of an ASR.
Safety standards have been reduced by not allowing crew to eat when and where they need to.
By the way F/Os are allowed to file an ASR as well!
Oz