EK Overtime
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
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I'd like to ask any of our collegues who answered their phones last week during the latest fog debacle to perhaps justify why they went to work..given that a few days earlier the comany had shafted you with this 5/12 rule.
And then, to add insult to injury, this change in productivity rule.
You missed a once or twice in a year opportunity to tell the company exactly what we all think of the draconian, unilateral T&C changes.
Still, I guess a couple of thousand dirhams in your back pocket while the company screws everything you came here for is justified?
And then, to add insult to injury, this change in productivity rule.
You missed a once or twice in a year opportunity to tell the company exactly what we all think of the draconian, unilateral T&C changes.
Still, I guess a couple of thousand dirhams in your back pocket while the company screws everything you came here for is justified?
Join Date: Oct 2007
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78 x 10.5 months = 820
92 x 10.5 months = 966
Naturally the line pilot will be capped when he hits 900 and cannot do much else. Therefore he can only really do an average of 86 hours per month.
For office duties, training captains and the like, its another story.
E.g. For those guys, they could quite happily reach 966 hours without any overtime kicking in. Essentially another roster month for free. Ouch!
92 x 10.5 months = 966
Naturally the line pilot will be capped when he hits 900 and cannot do much else. Therefore he can only really do an average of 86 hours per month.
For office duties, training captains and the like, its another story.
E.g. For those guys, they could quite happily reach 966 hours without any overtime kicking in. Essentially another roster month for free. Ouch!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: on the edge
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M C and everyone else. You likely wont "max out". Don't forget factoring. What your log book says and what EK considers will likely/certianly be 2 different things. Also don't forget AS's policy of..you can go over 900 hours during the month just as long as your below 900 by the end. Then there are the AD days. Also the practice of rostering sim support for anyone nearing the 900 hour mark. Any thing else i'm missing?
We've worked hard before/always, but, we got call out pay-GONE, overtime-GONE. A lot of these policies came up in 05/06 (or was it 04/05). U guys who haven't been here that long probably are wondering what I'm talking about but Emirates has used all these practices to operate short of pilots. Difference is now you wont make the same amount of cash for doing more work. I believe at the worst it ever got they only cancelled 6 flights one day due to pilot shortage. (and back then we we're REALLY short. I'd say the pilots here have always stepped up to the plate{or wicket,depending on where your from} at least then you got paid for it)The contract you signed, if like me, is rather vauge. The FOM incorporates your work rules, however, I never signed the FOM. If you can take on Emirates for contract violations, more power to you.
Right now it's the old "you should be thankful to have a job" mantality. What happens when/if this thing turns, who konws?...hope it's good for us. Waiting to hear from the guys who are "dusting off their cv". Let me know whats out there...
We've worked hard before/always, but, we got call out pay-GONE, overtime-GONE. A lot of these policies came up in 05/06 (or was it 04/05). U guys who haven't been here that long probably are wondering what I'm talking about but Emirates has used all these practices to operate short of pilots. Difference is now you wont make the same amount of cash for doing more work. I believe at the worst it ever got they only cancelled 6 flights one day due to pilot shortage. (and back then we we're REALLY short. I'd say the pilots here have always stepped up to the plate{or wicket,depending on where your from} at least then you got paid for it)The contract you signed, if like me, is rather vauge. The FOM incorporates your work rules, however, I never signed the FOM. If you can take on Emirates for contract violations, more power to you.
Right now it's the old "you should be thankful to have a job" mantality. What happens when/if this thing turns, who konws?...hope it's good for us. Waiting to hear from the guys who are "dusting off their cv". Let me know whats out there...
Join Date: Apr 2005
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A lot worse than you guys think it is...
Gentlemen,
Your reactions are pretty lame, your calculations are way off and the situation is a LOT worse than what it looks like...
First of all, ruserious, this is a 17.95% increase in productivity before overtime kicks in, not 15.2%.
Secondly, don't get confused about the 900hr rule. According to the FCI all the augmenting hours only count for the actual stick time. This is actually implemented in the 'new' OM-A Section 7, p 29, last alinea:
Flying hours credited to augmenting crew for the purpose of calculating the absolute limits on flying hours (for both 100hours in 28 days and the 900 hours for any consecutive 12 month period) will be based on the actual time in an operating seat, as recorded by the Voyage Report
So, all your augmenting time basically only counts for 50% for 4 pilot crew or 66% for 3 pilot crew. With all the ULR's we're doing you can EASILY fly the maximum of 92 hours and be below the yearly limits.
Also, no hiding behind 'I have a JAA/FAA/... license with a limit of...'. You are operating UAE registered aircraft on a UAE license, so these rules DO apply.
This also falls in line with Ed's letter on the 1st of Feb where he writes:
....
The significant changes are:
Unless required for training, each set of crew on a ULR flight will operate one sector and augment the other sector. This is unlike the existing practice of one set operating and other set augmenting throughout the entire trip.
ACTS will reflect estimated stick time on all augmented trips. This was required for the system to calculate correct monthly/yearly block hours limitation exceedances.
This means that for every ULR trip, you will roughly only achieve 75% of the hours actually flown towards your limits. 100% of one leg and only 50% for the return leg, or vice versa.
Bottom line: Flight Ops has been playing us all along. They had this idea up their sleeves since a few months when they announced less recruitment for 2009. All small deteriorations in our conditions fall in line with this ultimate new rule that will change our conditions as never before...
Now we only have to wait for the zero bonus and zero payrise without even the contractual 3%....
MR8
More to come...
Your reactions are pretty lame, your calculations are way off and the situation is a LOT worse than what it looks like...
First of all, ruserious, this is a 17.95% increase in productivity before overtime kicks in, not 15.2%.
Secondly, don't get confused about the 900hr rule. According to the FCI all the augmenting hours only count for the actual stick time. This is actually implemented in the 'new' OM-A Section 7, p 29, last alinea:
Flying hours credited to augmenting crew for the purpose of calculating the absolute limits on flying hours (for both 100hours in 28 days and the 900 hours for any consecutive 12 month period) will be based on the actual time in an operating seat, as recorded by the Voyage Report
So, all your augmenting time basically only counts for 50% for 4 pilot crew or 66% for 3 pilot crew. With all the ULR's we're doing you can EASILY fly the maximum of 92 hours and be below the yearly limits.
Also, no hiding behind 'I have a JAA/FAA/... license with a limit of...'. You are operating UAE registered aircraft on a UAE license, so these rules DO apply.
This also falls in line with Ed's letter on the 1st of Feb where he writes:
....
The significant changes are:
Unless required for training, each set of crew on a ULR flight will operate one sector and augment the other sector. This is unlike the existing practice of one set operating and other set augmenting throughout the entire trip.
ACTS will reflect estimated stick time on all augmented trips. This was required for the system to calculate correct monthly/yearly block hours limitation exceedances.
This means that for every ULR trip, you will roughly only achieve 75% of the hours actually flown towards your limits. 100% of one leg and only 50% for the return leg, or vice versa.
Bottom line: Flight Ops has been playing us all along. They had this idea up their sleeves since a few months when they announced less recruitment for 2009. All small deteriorations in our conditions fall in line with this ultimate new rule that will change our conditions as never before...
Now we only have to wait for the zero bonus and zero payrise without even the contractual 3%....
MR8
More to come...
Join Date: May 2006
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what MR8 said plus i know what i forgot. Standby ulr. a reserve day counts for 3.5 credit hours (for bidding purposes). CRS can't cope with sulr so they just increased the time off requirment before a ulr by 24 hrs then add the standby day after the roster is generated. You don't get paid for it and you don't get any credit hours for it. What a deal!
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Running some numbers...
Just ran some numbers to compare financial loss in case of 92hr rosters...
I got the basic salary from the emiratesgroupcareers website, and one thing struck me.. Although they still mention the approximately 78hr limit per month, they also talk about hourly pay of 45/60 for FO/Capt where it is 35/45 in our FOM. Also overtime on the website is mentioned as 375/525 compared to the 325/460 in the FOM. So either an increase is in the pipeline, was in the pipeline bus has been scrapped, or they are just lying to new candidates.
Anyway, using the numbers from the FOM for a new FO or newly promoted Captain:
FO old: 22720 basic + 78x35 flightpay + 14x325 overtime = 30000 Dhs
FO new: 22720 basic + 92x35 flightpay = 25940 Dhs
- 13.5 %
Capt old: 32430 basic + 78x45 flightpay + 14x460 overtime = 42380 Dhs
Capt new: 32430 basic + 92x45 flightpay = 36570 Dhs
-13.7 %
So basically for us this means that:
If you were never working overtime before, the company can roster you 17.95% more time without paying extra (apart from the minimal flight pay)
If you were working overtime, you will still continue to do so, but the company will pay you about 13.5% less for this
Or any combination of the 2 above...
These are our losses, roughly. Now what's in it for the company??
A 17.95 increase in productivity means basically that they will not need every 7th pilot. 6 pilots will now do the work for the same price as 7 pilots did before.
This also means:
No basic salary for the 7th pilot
No housing for the 7th pilot
No DEWA for the 7th pilot
No medical for the 7th pilot and family
No schooling for the 7th pilot's kids
No end of service benefit for the 7th pilot
...
This seems a bit in contrast with the message Mr. ED sent us about saving our peers jobs by taking the AD's (which I didn't understand in the first place)
Extra consequences for new joiners and FO's: For every 7 Captains now, EK will (roughly) only need 6 in the future. That means that for the same amount of work, EK needs about 85 skippers less on the B777 and about 60 less on the Bus. I might be extremely negative on this dark day, but I wonder about the (lack of) upgrades in the coming year(s)...
Sorry for ranting, but these were just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.. as I said, the implications of this 'adjustment' are far worse than most of us think...
MR8
PS: I would like to run a similar comparison with TCAS's first productivity raise, the one in 2005 where we suddenly weren't credited anymore for leave, reserve etc.. Does anyone still have an old copy of the FOM with the details??
I got the basic salary from the emiratesgroupcareers website, and one thing struck me.. Although they still mention the approximately 78hr limit per month, they also talk about hourly pay of 45/60 for FO/Capt where it is 35/45 in our FOM. Also overtime on the website is mentioned as 375/525 compared to the 325/460 in the FOM. So either an increase is in the pipeline, was in the pipeline bus has been scrapped, or they are just lying to new candidates.
Anyway, using the numbers from the FOM for a new FO or newly promoted Captain:
FO old: 22720 basic + 78x35 flightpay + 14x325 overtime = 30000 Dhs
FO new: 22720 basic + 92x35 flightpay = 25940 Dhs
- 13.5 %
Capt old: 32430 basic + 78x45 flightpay + 14x460 overtime = 42380 Dhs
Capt new: 32430 basic + 92x45 flightpay = 36570 Dhs
-13.7 %
So basically for us this means that:
If you were never working overtime before, the company can roster you 17.95% more time without paying extra (apart from the minimal flight pay)
If you were working overtime, you will still continue to do so, but the company will pay you about 13.5% less for this
Or any combination of the 2 above...
These are our losses, roughly. Now what's in it for the company??
A 17.95 increase in productivity means basically that they will not need every 7th pilot. 6 pilots will now do the work for the same price as 7 pilots did before.
This also means:
No basic salary for the 7th pilot
No housing for the 7th pilot
No DEWA for the 7th pilot
No medical for the 7th pilot and family
No schooling for the 7th pilot's kids
No end of service benefit for the 7th pilot
...
This seems a bit in contrast with the message Mr. ED sent us about saving our peers jobs by taking the AD's (which I didn't understand in the first place)
Extra consequences for new joiners and FO's: For every 7 Captains now, EK will (roughly) only need 6 in the future. That means that for the same amount of work, EK needs about 85 skippers less on the B777 and about 60 less on the Bus. I might be extremely negative on this dark day, but I wonder about the (lack of) upgrades in the coming year(s)...
Sorry for ranting, but these were just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.. as I said, the implications of this 'adjustment' are far worse than most of us think...
MR8
PS: I would like to run a similar comparison with TCAS's first productivity raise, the one in 2005 where we suddenly weren't credited anymore for leave, reserve etc.. Does anyone still have an old copy of the FOM with the details??
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Perhaps the management, could enlighten us as to what they have taken in the way of pay cuts given the present financial situation.
Measures taken to save jobs..... and yet we are still recruiting...you must really think we are stupid.
EK MISS-MANAGEMENT .. YOU ARE GOING TO CAUSE A HULL LOSS IF YOU CONTINUE WITH THIS VINDICTIVE AND CHILD LIKE STYLE OF MANAGEMENT.
THERE IS NO ROOM FOR CHILDREN IN MISSION CRITICAL ENVIRONMENTS SUCH AS AVIATION.
Given Dubai's present financial situation (in deep S%$t) EK should be adopting far more careful and conservative measures to weather the present storm. It should be steady as she goes for the next few months. Instead they are going to run their pilots FURTHER into the ground by increasing their hours.
Out of interest assumming 96 hour month with 30hours of night flying, assuming 2000hrs on type which most ek fo-capt upgrades would have. Im working on overtime kicking in at 96 as I havn't seen the letter yet
Air arabia 43930dhs narrow body low cost airline, the sort of thing I was doing 15 years ago.
EK 36750 for flying a wide body, including the A380. The differences would actually be greater since on average we probably do more than 30 hours night flying a month.
Measures taken to save jobs..... and yet we are still recruiting...you must really think we are stupid.
EK MISS-MANAGEMENT .. YOU ARE GOING TO CAUSE A HULL LOSS IF YOU CONTINUE WITH THIS VINDICTIVE AND CHILD LIKE STYLE OF MANAGEMENT.
THERE IS NO ROOM FOR CHILDREN IN MISSION CRITICAL ENVIRONMENTS SUCH AS AVIATION.
Given Dubai's present financial situation (in deep S%$t) EK should be adopting far more careful and conservative measures to weather the present storm. It should be steady as she goes for the next few months. Instead they are going to run their pilots FURTHER into the ground by increasing their hours.
Out of interest assumming 96 hour month with 30hours of night flying, assuming 2000hrs on type which most ek fo-capt upgrades would have. Im working on overtime kicking in at 96 as I havn't seen the letter yet
Air arabia 43930dhs narrow body low cost airline, the sort of thing I was doing 15 years ago.
EK 36750 for flying a wide body, including the A380. The differences would actually be greater since on average we probably do more than 30 hours night flying a month.
Last edited by allaru; 10th Feb 2009 at 03:14.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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All these new weekly measures reveal that they are becoming desperate. The three hitmen (AS/AAR/ED) are probably suffering a lot of pressure from the "Capo di tutti i capi" to come up with constant cost cutting ideas.
All I can say is that this is the worst ever recession for EK, and it hit right when we are also seeing the worst ever management team up there.
A bunch of amateurs.
All I can say is that this is the worst ever recession for EK, and it hit right when we are also seeing the worst ever management team up there.
A bunch of amateurs.
Join Date: May 2008
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Brilliant! Another ejaculo praecox from our "leaders".
Why not use the carrot? Increase productivity by a small margin and plan the guys just slightly above it. As a lot of our collegues seem to be as greedy as the company (working every requested minute on their day off), the same guys would think twice pressing 2 and losing around 1500 dire hams. Now if you plan them consitently higher, but below new productivity increase, the pressing costs only a mere 3 to 600 dire hams (for crap subcontinental TAs) and will definitely increase. Cost neutral?? No, simply stupid.
On the other hand we get letters from AS (i am constantly resisting to add the second "s"), ED (the horse definitely only moves its lips, dubbed by his masters voice) and the new venue to the clown outfit M&M (it's only fast food and doesn't even taste good), these letters whining about the lack of feedback on CHRS, the lack of compliancy for idle rev and 1eng taxi and the urge for skippers to "coach" the operation and crews. - How on earth can you expect any kind of cooperation when displaying dictatorial pecking down the order yourself? Have they ever even heard something about modern leadership? I know this region lives in the 15th century by their counting, but most mangers are of 1st world origin and education, even most dish-dashs boast such education themselves. Haven't they studied recent history and human management? It will backfire, for sure, it always has. If it's not by passive resistance of the sl .. employees, it will be by a smoking hole.
Why not use the carrot? Increase productivity by a small margin and plan the guys just slightly above it. As a lot of our collegues seem to be as greedy as the company (working every requested minute on their day off), the same guys would think twice pressing 2 and losing around 1500 dire hams. Now if you plan them consitently higher, but below new productivity increase, the pressing costs only a mere 3 to 600 dire hams (for crap subcontinental TAs) and will definitely increase. Cost neutral?? No, simply stupid.
On the other hand we get letters from AS (i am constantly resisting to add the second "s"), ED (the horse definitely only moves its lips, dubbed by his masters voice) and the new venue to the clown outfit M&M (it's only fast food and doesn't even taste good), these letters whining about the lack of feedback on CHRS, the lack of compliancy for idle rev and 1eng taxi and the urge for skippers to "coach" the operation and crews. - How on earth can you expect any kind of cooperation when displaying dictatorial pecking down the order yourself? Have they ever even heard something about modern leadership? I know this region lives in the 15th century by their counting, but most mangers are of 1st world origin and education, even most dish-dashs boast such education themselves. Haven't they studied recent history and human management? It will backfire, for sure, it always has. If it's not by passive resistance of the sl .. employees, it will be by a smoking hole.
