Saudia
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The 20/10 RUH base is now being officially offered.
It seems the price of the "10 day off block" is that 3 of your your current vacation/holiday entitlement are given up each month.
If my assumptions and mathematics serve me correctly, then the 20/10 offer translates into a productivity benefit in Saudia's favor at nil cost to them because I believe the "total yearly" days off enjoys at present will be reduced. If that is the case, then the expat pilot will effectively be self "funding" his 10 day off block from days off he would have already been entitled to on the present JED base contract.
Please do the maths for yourselves and confirm if my assumptions are correct or not?
It seems the price of the "10 day off block" is that 3 of your your current vacation/holiday entitlement are given up each month.
If my assumptions and mathematics serve me correctly, then the 20/10 offer translates into a productivity benefit in Saudia's favor at nil cost to them because I believe the "total yearly" days off enjoys at present will be reduced. If that is the case, then the expat pilot will effectively be self "funding" his 10 day off block from days off he would have already been entitled to on the present JED base contract.
Please do the maths for yourselves and confirm if my assumptions are correct or not?
Last edited by VAMY; 6th Jan 2017 at 11:34.
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Saudia is actually increasing the "leave" from 40 days total(30 vac, 10 hol) to 60, from the guaranteed block of 5 to 10, 5 days difference X12=60. So for the expats looking to commute is a good deal.
G
G
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I think you miss VANY's point.
We are self funding those extra days you mention (from 5/7 to 10) by taking our own Annual Leave days and spreading them throughout the year.
It's a "revenue neutral" move for the company in that regard, they just have to organise the scheduling & better plan the RUH trips... good luck with that!
We are self funding those extra days you mention (from 5/7 to 10) by taking our own Annual Leave days and spreading them throughout the year.
It's a "revenue neutral" move for the company in that regard, they just have to organise the scheduling & better plan the RUH trips... good luck with that!
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Guy's,
The 20/10 RUH is definitely not revenue neutral. As the current offer stands, the expats will be definitely giving more productivity to the company than is necessary.
Presently, days off per month per line are as follows.
Each line usually provides a minimum of nine days off per month. In reality, depending which fleet you are on and what line you have, you will usually get about an average of 12-14 days off per line per month. Presently, these days off do NOT include the "before flight" rest in RUH associated with most RUH pairings.
Therefore, on an annual basis, the average days off each month presently amount to approximately 10 months X 12 days, which equals 120 days. Annual vacation entitlement is 30 days, which gives an annual sub total of 150 days off. Then there are the 10 days holiday entitlement, which gives a further sub total of 160 days off per year. Finally, in the month in which you take you 10 days holiday you will also receive at least an average of 8 days off on your line. This gives a realistic minimum annual total of 168 days off.
If you devide the 168 by 12 you will get the average monthly days off that are potential and easily available. That figure amounts to 14 days of per month, each and every month, assuming you are prepared to give up your holiday and vacation entitlement. It does NOT in ANYWAY equate to 10 days off per month! If you accept 20/10 then you are, plainly speaking, being very f**king stupid and you get what you deserve! You will be giving up, as an absolute minimum, an extra 4 days off average per month that is currently enjoyed for ABSOLUTELY no benefit, financial or otherwise!
Furthermore, most lines presently include pairings from RUH that require dead heading credit to/from Riyadh AND a day's rest in RUH BEFORE the flight/flights from RUH begin. If you have three RUH pairings per month, that'll mean at least 3/4 days "before flight" rest RUH associated with the RUH pairings on your line each month. Some lines will have more than three RUH pairings.
In terms of productivity, those "before flight" rest days in RUH are effectively productivity days lost to the company because if you were not on " before flight" rest then the company could allocate you to a flight on those days instead.
If you become RUH based, on the 20/10, then those "before flight" rest days will be lost to you and will become available to the company to cover other trips. This is the opposite situation to what currently exists.
Assuming presently there are approximately 3 to 4 days "before or post flight" rest in RUH for most RUH pairings, then that will mean, in simplified terms, with the proposed RUH base, each RUH based pilot will be available to be utilized to crew an average of one, possibly two, extra pairings per month as compared to now. In other words, the company will be able to crew more flights from RUH with less crew than compared to the present. That's a big productivity benefit in the company's favor.
If you become "RUH Based" you will also be giving up the current dead head credit, which is a substantial payment over a year, as well as the "domestic layover expenses" associated with the "rest" periods in RUH. The "domestic layover expenses" also amount to a substantial annual payment which will also be lost to any RUH based pilot.
If you accept the "21/10" RUH base, you will give up approximately a minimum of 6-8 hours dead head credit each month, the associated "domestic layover expenses" and you will, in reality, replace all of this monetary loss by flying at least one extra trip per month for very little, if any, monetary benift. These productivity gains alone will pay for the RUH base many times over.
Not happy with gaining the above, the company really want to establish just how daft the expats are by also asking them to forfeit their present 30 days anunual vacation entitlement and possible the 10 days holiday entitlement as well!
Simply put, the productivity benefit to the company comes from the following facts.
On the 20/10 deal currently on offer you will give up, for no monetary gain, approximately 4 days off per month that you currently enjoy. An average of 6-8 hours "dead head" credit per month and an average of 4-5 nights "domestic layover" expanses each and every month.
You will replace that with an average of one or two pairings each month for little if no monetary benefit.
Honestly guys, which idiot is going to accept those terms when he will ALREADY have more than funded the RUH base from the productivity gains of losing the deadhead credit payment, domestic layover expenses and "before flight" rest day in RUH. Also, do not forget that on those "before flight" rest days you will now be operating an extra flight!
Come on guys, use your brains. Try to see what is really being offered!
The Saudi nationals have already figured it out and that's why they won't accept RUH base! I suspect the management figure that most of the expats will be plenty stupid enough to accept the offer that the Saudi's wouldn't!
By way of comparison, in order to attract its JED based staff to RUH, GACA are offering a 25% pay increase to attract its key staff to RUH! Even with such a good pay rise on offer, GACA are finding it extremely hard to attract staff that are willing to go or sufficient appplicants to replace them!
The 20/10 RUH is definitely not revenue neutral. As the current offer stands, the expats will be definitely giving more productivity to the company than is necessary.
Presently, days off per month per line are as follows.
Each line usually provides a minimum of nine days off per month. In reality, depending which fleet you are on and what line you have, you will usually get about an average of 12-14 days off per line per month. Presently, these days off do NOT include the "before flight" rest in RUH associated with most RUH pairings.
Therefore, on an annual basis, the average days off each month presently amount to approximately 10 months X 12 days, which equals 120 days. Annual vacation entitlement is 30 days, which gives an annual sub total of 150 days off. Then there are the 10 days holiday entitlement, which gives a further sub total of 160 days off per year. Finally, in the month in which you take you 10 days holiday you will also receive at least an average of 8 days off on your line. This gives a realistic minimum annual total of 168 days off.
If you devide the 168 by 12 you will get the average monthly days off that are potential and easily available. That figure amounts to 14 days of per month, each and every month, assuming you are prepared to give up your holiday and vacation entitlement. It does NOT in ANYWAY equate to 10 days off per month! If you accept 20/10 then you are, plainly speaking, being very f**king stupid and you get what you deserve! You will be giving up, as an absolute minimum, an extra 4 days off average per month that is currently enjoyed for ABSOLUTELY no benefit, financial or otherwise!
Furthermore, most lines presently include pairings from RUH that require dead heading credit to/from Riyadh AND a day's rest in RUH BEFORE the flight/flights from RUH begin. If you have three RUH pairings per month, that'll mean at least 3/4 days "before flight" rest RUH associated with the RUH pairings on your line each month. Some lines will have more than three RUH pairings.
In terms of productivity, those "before flight" rest days in RUH are effectively productivity days lost to the company because if you were not on " before flight" rest then the company could allocate you to a flight on those days instead.
If you become RUH based, on the 20/10, then those "before flight" rest days will be lost to you and will become available to the company to cover other trips. This is the opposite situation to what currently exists.
Assuming presently there are approximately 3 to 4 days "before or post flight" rest in RUH for most RUH pairings, then that will mean, in simplified terms, with the proposed RUH base, each RUH based pilot will be available to be utilized to crew an average of one, possibly two, extra pairings per month as compared to now. In other words, the company will be able to crew more flights from RUH with less crew than compared to the present. That's a big productivity benefit in the company's favor.
If you become "RUH Based" you will also be giving up the current dead head credit, which is a substantial payment over a year, as well as the "domestic layover expenses" associated with the "rest" periods in RUH. The "domestic layover expenses" also amount to a substantial annual payment which will also be lost to any RUH based pilot.
If you accept the "21/10" RUH base, you will give up approximately a minimum of 6-8 hours dead head credit each month, the associated "domestic layover expenses" and you will, in reality, replace all of this monetary loss by flying at least one extra trip per month for very little, if any, monetary benift. These productivity gains alone will pay for the RUH base many times over.
Not happy with gaining the above, the company really want to establish just how daft the expats are by also asking them to forfeit their present 30 days anunual vacation entitlement and possible the 10 days holiday entitlement as well!
Simply put, the productivity benefit to the company comes from the following facts.
On the 20/10 deal currently on offer you will give up, for no monetary gain, approximately 4 days off per month that you currently enjoy. An average of 6-8 hours "dead head" credit per month and an average of 4-5 nights "domestic layover" expanses each and every month.
You will replace that with an average of one or two pairings each month for little if no monetary benefit.
Honestly guys, which idiot is going to accept those terms when he will ALREADY have more than funded the RUH base from the productivity gains of losing the deadhead credit payment, domestic layover expenses and "before flight" rest day in RUH. Also, do not forget that on those "before flight" rest days you will now be operating an extra flight!
Come on guys, use your brains. Try to see what is really being offered!
The Saudi nationals have already figured it out and that's why they won't accept RUH base! I suspect the management figure that most of the expats will be plenty stupid enough to accept the offer that the Saudi's wouldn't!
By way of comparison, in order to attract its JED based staff to RUH, GACA are offering a 25% pay increase to attract its key staff to RUH! Even with such a good pay rise on offer, GACA are finding it extremely hard to attract staff that are willing to go or sufficient appplicants to replace them!
Last edited by VAMY; 11th Jan 2017 at 18:16.
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How many people are they seeking for RUH base? How many new hires are presently sitting in JED Hotels?
You cant fly 20 days in a row, so you will still get some of these days off, but how are people going to earn anything but basic salary with the present rostering procedures?
you will give up, for no monetary gain, approximately 4 days off per month that you currently enjoy
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Mutt & Peasy,
At the moment there's an official company moratorium on overtime with the stated aim of reducing the overtime bill. I don't know if the overtime for the expats has been cut back in reality but on some fleets there's very little overtime available i.e. the A330, B747-8F & B787. I can't say if overtime has been reduced on the A320 or B777, although antecdotally it seems that overtime on those two fleets has also been reduced lately.
From what I've seen for the RUH roster patterns that have been suggested, the 18/14 option recommendation was that out of the 14 days off the pilot could elect for voluntary overtime on some of his days off, if he so wished.
I have also seen the memo Peasy mentions but I have also seen the document recommending differing roster patterns which strongly came out in favor of a 18/14 commuting roster on a cost favour basis to Saudia's benefit. The 20/10 roster was also discussed as an option but with that roster pattern the present holiday and vacation entitlement remained INTACT and WITHOUT the expat pilot having to give up ANY of the present holiday and vacation entitlement.
It's not accurate to say that no other roster pattern/option exists. They do exist, you're just not being given the opportunity to see them. VP Flight Operations knows this for sure because the document has been with him for about two months already. I'd suggest you go in and ask him if you can see it before you accept the first offer put in front of you. I'm sure that if you were trying to sell your house, whether in the States or the U.K, you wouldn't even consider taking the first offer available. Please, just apply the same logic as you would for selling your house when deciding on the RUH basing.
Don't accept the first offer put in front of you!
At the moment there's an official company moratorium on overtime with the stated aim of reducing the overtime bill. I don't know if the overtime for the expats has been cut back in reality but on some fleets there's very little overtime available i.e. the A330, B747-8F & B787. I can't say if overtime has been reduced on the A320 or B777, although antecdotally it seems that overtime on those two fleets has also been reduced lately.
From what I've seen for the RUH roster patterns that have been suggested, the 18/14 option recommendation was that out of the 14 days off the pilot could elect for voluntary overtime on some of his days off, if he so wished.
I have also seen the memo Peasy mentions but I have also seen the document recommending differing roster patterns which strongly came out in favor of a 18/14 commuting roster on a cost favour basis to Saudia's benefit. The 20/10 roster was also discussed as an option but with that roster pattern the present holiday and vacation entitlement remained INTACT and WITHOUT the expat pilot having to give up ANY of the present holiday and vacation entitlement.
It's not accurate to say that no other roster pattern/option exists. They do exist, you're just not being given the opportunity to see them. VP Flight Operations knows this for sure because the document has been with him for about two months already. I'd suggest you go in and ask him if you can see it before you accept the first offer put in front of you. I'm sure that if you were trying to sell your house, whether in the States or the U.K, you wouldn't even consider taking the first offer available. Please, just apply the same logic as you would for selling your house when deciding on the RUH basing.
Don't accept the first offer put in front of you!
Last edited by VAMY; 7th Jan 2017 at 19:53.
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What offer? There is no offer. All new hires and all contract renewals will be RUH base until further notice. Period. There are two options - to sign the contract or not to sign.
Overtime moratorium is nonsence. It's always cheaper to pay overtime rather then have more pilots with their training, basic salary, accomodation, etc. The thing is that it's simply not enough flights at the moment to go around. I don't know the reason. Overcapacity, seasonal, general downturn? Flights are seldom full and frequently being cancelled.
When they need someone to fly aeroplanes nobody talks about moratoriums, mostly about selling vacations
They just don't need us these days.
Overtime moratorium is nonsence. It's always cheaper to pay overtime rather then have more pilots with their training, basic salary, accomodation, etc. The thing is that it's simply not enough flights at the moment to go around. I don't know the reason. Overcapacity, seasonal, general downturn? Flights are seldom full and frequently being cancelled.
When they need someone to fly aeroplanes nobody talks about moratoriums, mostly about selling vacations
They just don't need us these days.
Last edited by Romasik; 8th Jan 2017 at 00:30.
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Romanisk just a side note, empty seats are not the only evidence of a slowdown. I came back from vacation after 5 weeks. I was driving on Medina and Khaladia roads at 2130 on a Friday night, there were NO traffic jams! I don't recall seeing this ever on a weekend in the last decade.
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Romanisk just a side note, empty seats are not the only evidence of a slowdown. I came back from vacation after 5 weeks. I was driving on Medina and Khaladia roads at 2130 on a Friday night, there were NO traffic jams! I don't recall seeing this ever on a weekend in the last decade.
Something is going on in the industry. Well, at least in its Middle East part.
I just had 3 flights cancelled: RUH-JED-DMM-JED...
RUH - JED was combined with 777, which flew half empty anyway...
Last edited by Romasik; 8th Jan 2017 at 16:37.
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Vamy, as you mentioned, waves benefit connecting passenger flows.
Is their goal to become a major transit airline like Emirates? If so, this will be interesting to watch.....
Is their goal to become a major transit airline like Emirates? If so, this will be interesting to watch.....
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VAMY:
I don't remember exactly. At night. It was dark. But my point is that over more then 20 years flying to DXB at different times of the day, sometimes at peak arrivals, I saw it for the first time. May be I just wasn't lucky enough
.
I don't remember exactly. At night. It was dark. But my point is that over more then 20 years flying to DXB at different times of the day, sometimes at peak arrivals, I saw it for the first time. May be I just wasn't lucky enough
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VAMY:
Some good points
Few notes:
- Saudi pilots who physically live in Riyadh will take RUH base for sure. Even with some financial lost, which is not really going to happen. Instead of deadheabing credit they will get flying credit and productivity.
Also don't forget their present hassle of positioning to Jeddah and returning back to Riyadh for free and during their rest time. And renting appartments and having another car in Jeddah as well. And doing all office things. In any case their number is too small to have any significant impact. So, I beleive, we are only talking about expats and their incentives.
If Saudia respects at least 20/10 promises and put it in the contract, it will make things much easier. Still, I don't think they will get enough volunteers. Then forceful base assignment comes forward and it all depends on backlash. The only upper hand expats have is not signing or gambling by not signing RUH base contract. If enough people decide to leave instead of moving, then we'll see the next step - improving incentives. Either returning vacation days, or more consecutive days off, or increasing salary, or a combination of them. BTW, that's what other companies do when they need to relocate staff to Riyadh. Up to 20%.
New CEO gives some hope and, from the other hand, some doubts. You will most probably work harder for the same money...
Some good points
Few notes:
- Saudi pilots who physically live in Riyadh will take RUH base for sure. Even with some financial lost, which is not really going to happen. Instead of deadheabing credit they will get flying credit and productivity.
Also don't forget their present hassle of positioning to Jeddah and returning back to Riyadh for free and during their rest time. And renting appartments and having another car in Jeddah as well. And doing all office things. In any case their number is too small to have any significant impact. So, I beleive, we are only talking about expats and their incentives.
If Saudia respects at least 20/10 promises and put it in the contract, it will make things much easier. Still, I don't think they will get enough volunteers. Then forceful base assignment comes forward and it all depends on backlash. The only upper hand expats have is not signing or gambling by not signing RUH base contract. If enough people decide to leave instead of moving, then we'll see the next step - improving incentives. Either returning vacation days, or more consecutive days off, or increasing salary, or a combination of them. BTW, that's what other companies do when they need to relocate staff to Riyadh. Up to 20%.
New CEO gives some hope and, from the other hand, some doubts. You will most probably work harder for the same money...
Last edited by Romasik; 11th Jan 2017 at 23:02.
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Guys i have recently become a free bird from my current employer. So I am peacefully exploring all A320 capt options in middle east now. Could you be kind enough to enlighten me with the package and perks. I have been with 3 Airlines in the past, none in the desert though, but I think I have learnt enough to realise that every business house has its own set of problems. Just keen on getting the salary package and perks details. Your help would be much appreciated.
Regards,
Regards,
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just seeking help
I am not asking the package of one person in specific my friend. Just a general sketch as the website only educates about the requirement and other standard jabber jabber but not the money.
Somebody please share the knowledge.
Somebody please share the knowledge.
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