Another QR eathquake landing in JED?
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Sgnr de L'Atlantique
With 10 sectors per month on the A330 and 120 sectors to bash in... that means that the line training for a cadet takes roughly a year to complete??
With 10 sectors per month on the A330 and 120 sectors to bash in... that means that the line training for a cadet takes roughly a year to complete??
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Maybe I am just in a different frame of mind these days and not concentrating very much but this thread seems to be getting confused to me.
My opinion is that a training captain is TRAINED to handle situations like this and if he/she cannot see a potentially dangerous situation going to unfold and take control of the aircraft then it is he/she to blame.
It is also part of the blame of the way the training department are just not monitoring who is a training position and checking them or giving them any other continuous ongoing training to keep them up to speed, new ideas and/or the changes in the pilots who are to be trained and how to handle these second officers/low time pilots. Yes, sure you use to be a training captain 10 years ago in your country but that was when people had to have some qualifications and experience to get hired into the right seat. Things have changed and so should the structure of how to train or have these pilots introduced into the right seat. I don't know how to do it but I am sure seminars and other airline consultants can give some advice.
I am sorry to say but our chief pilot of training needs to come up with some new plans and ideas that will work. So far since he has been here the training has taken a few steps backwards with some of these changes.
HM
My opinion is that a training captain is TRAINED to handle situations like this and if he/she cannot see a potentially dangerous situation going to unfold and take control of the aircraft then it is he/she to blame.
It is also part of the blame of the way the training department are just not monitoring who is a training position and checking them or giving them any other continuous ongoing training to keep them up to speed, new ideas and/or the changes in the pilots who are to be trained and how to handle these second officers/low time pilots. Yes, sure you use to be a training captain 10 years ago in your country but that was when people had to have some qualifications and experience to get hired into the right seat. Things have changed and so should the structure of how to train or have these pilots introduced into the right seat. I don't know how to do it but I am sure seminars and other airline consultants can give some advice.
I am sorry to say but our chief pilot of training needs to come up with some new plans and ideas that will work. So far since he has been here the training has taken a few steps backwards with some of these changes.
HM
Last edited by Hajj Man; 16th Jul 2008 at 14:09.
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H.M.
I do not if you have ever been in training or not, but one thing is sure, If you would have any experience you must have come across similar situation before! The only reason why you would be able to say " It did not happen to me" would be pure luck!
I agree with you. QRis totally wrong by appointing instructors based on seniority and it is even more wrong to not have any QA/QC system in place whereby instructors themselves are being checked on a regular bases!
Once an instructor in QR (LTC/GI?TRI/TRE/...) you are virtually untouchable! Until something happens that is!
Once more, this system puts all responsibility with the CPT.
And I can assure you, the trainer on this particular flight is a professional pilot, a good aviator and an outstanding instructor! I am sure if you would propose him to be checked every year he would applaud any decision made in that direction.
The atlantique man is right...The system itself is rotten through and through and things like this where bound to happen in any case!
I do not if you have ever been in training or not, but one thing is sure, If you would have any experience you must have come across similar situation before! The only reason why you would be able to say " It did not happen to me" would be pure luck!
I agree with you. QRis totally wrong by appointing instructors based on seniority and it is even more wrong to not have any QA/QC system in place whereby instructors themselves are being checked on a regular bases!
Once an instructor in QR (LTC/GI?TRI/TRE/...) you are virtually untouchable! Until something happens that is!
Once more, this system puts all responsibility with the CPT.
And I can assure you, the trainer on this particular flight is a professional pilot, a good aviator and an outstanding instructor! I am sure if you would propose him to be checked every year he would applaud any decision made in that direction.
The atlantique man is right...The system itself is rotten through and through and things like this where bound to happen in any case!
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Outstanding Instructor
Hey hey man outstanding instructor just made QR ground A330 for 20 days and replace a landing gear worth more then 3 m $ .
Nothing could be done in that case ?? What about flaps full and add 5 kts ? If he pull full aft with 5 kts more maybe he would have energy to reduce impact .
Yea what he could do as well he shouldnt give S/O fly to JED whan he has 4500 m RWY in Doha for S/O to play with landing.
CLC hard landing with ADK .
Inst selection by seniority ? Yea why not ? You want new guy in QR to become INst and he has not flown area or type.
In QR everyone can be instructor as long as he drinks with right people .
You can even become CT A330 on same basic ( R.H)
Nothing could be done in that case ?? What about flaps full and add 5 kts ? If he pull full aft with 5 kts more maybe he would have energy to reduce impact .
Yea what he could do as well he shouldnt give S/O fly to JED whan he has 4500 m RWY in Doha for S/O to play with landing.
CLC hard landing with ADK .
Inst selection by seniority ? Yea why not ? You want new guy in QR to become INst and he has not flown area or type.
In QR everyone can be instructor as long as he drinks with right people .
You can even become CT A330 on same basic ( R.H)
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INST
Outstanding instructor .
Well i know the guy and he is USA/AUS .
He went from USA to AUS during that time when Anset was having problems .
He took someones job down there and thats why he is only AUS left in Airline since all other got job with Emirates and Dragon Air .no choice he is on Australian union pilots black list ( means you cant get job in Cathay ,Dragon,Emirtes ..... )
He seams nice and he performes good as commander but outstanding not sure .
Well i know the guy and he is USA/AUS .
He went from USA to AUS during that time when Anset was having problems .
He took someones job down there and thats why he is only AUS left in Airline since all other got job with Emirates and Dragon Air .no choice he is on Australian union pilots black list ( means you cant get job in Cathay ,Dragon,Emirtes ..... )
He seams nice and he performes good as commander but outstanding not sure .
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He took someones job down there and thats why he is only AUS left in Airline since all other got job with Emirates and Dragon Air .no choice he is on Australian union pilots black list ( means you cant get job in Cathay ,Dragon,Emirtes ..... )
SyB
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You bunch of m........
Adding 5 kts CEO man.....If you think things like that save the day...FORGET IT!
I totally agree with the flight safety office that this a BIG NONO. Its an outdated practice going back to the dark ages of the 707 and should not be done on modern jetliners!
Dont you think airbus would have come up with procedures like this in case they thought it was necessary?
FLAPS FULL.....man, you must be an even bigger moron than we all think! What does airbus say as recommended procedure in gusty conditions and windshear??? Exactly...use FLAPS 3!
FLAPS 3 TO FLAPS FULL IS A DRAG FLAP SETTING MY FRIEND. It reduces the energy level of your aircraft and hence it might reduce your landing distance required. It lowers your body angle as well.
But it is not the setting to be used in situations where you need all the energy possible, such as this one!
If a new guy joins QR with 2o years instruction behind his teeth and he can prove to be worthy of his name and fame, by all means he should be made instructor instantly!
Instructing is not a given right, it is a privilege. And most pilots are not fit at all for instructing! They might be good operators but they lack the people knowledge to transfer that information! Just like these wanabees in QR who see being instructor as a given right or a promotion!
Thats exactly why the jordanian with small man syndrome and tiny glasses just got his ass kicked out of training. The moment he became TRE he started abusing his powers because he thought he became invincible!
So YES: use the experience of possible new joiners over seniority! And by the way, this will take care of all the drinking/shisha smoking deals that are being made outside of the system at the same time!
And boys, can we lay that Ansett thing to rest please? Its been almost 20 years now!
I find it VERY VERY low of you LULU, to bring up these matters here, as well as virtually disclosing the guy's identity on this forum! It is disgusting! Exactly how many AUS/USA trainers you think we have here uh?
I will recommend your post to be deleted by the mods...the S*** word is forbidden on these forums!
I totally agree with the flight safety office that this a BIG NONO. Its an outdated practice going back to the dark ages of the 707 and should not be done on modern jetliners!
Dont you think airbus would have come up with procedures like this in case they thought it was necessary?
FLAPS FULL.....man, you must be an even bigger moron than we all think! What does airbus say as recommended procedure in gusty conditions and windshear??? Exactly...use FLAPS 3!
FLAPS 3 TO FLAPS FULL IS A DRAG FLAP SETTING MY FRIEND. It reduces the energy level of your aircraft and hence it might reduce your landing distance required. It lowers your body angle as well.
But it is not the setting to be used in situations where you need all the energy possible, such as this one!
If a new guy joins QR with 2o years instruction behind his teeth and he can prove to be worthy of his name and fame, by all means he should be made instructor instantly!
Instructing is not a given right, it is a privilege. And most pilots are not fit at all for instructing! They might be good operators but they lack the people knowledge to transfer that information! Just like these wanabees in QR who see being instructor as a given right or a promotion!
Thats exactly why the jordanian with small man syndrome and tiny glasses just got his ass kicked out of training. The moment he became TRE he started abusing his powers because he thought he became invincible!
So YES: use the experience of possible new joiners over seniority! And by the way, this will take care of all the drinking/shisha smoking deals that are being made outside of the system at the same time!
And boys, can we lay that Ansett thing to rest please? Its been almost 20 years now!
I find it VERY VERY low of you LULU, to bring up these matters here, as well as virtually disclosing the guy's identity on this forum! It is disgusting! Exactly how many AUS/USA trainers you think we have here uh?
I will recommend your post to be deleted by the mods...the S*** word is forbidden on these forums!
Last edited by P.Clostermann; 17th Jul 2008 at 20:55. Reason: Pastis!
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Mr moron P.Closterman
Dont be upset . Airbus will change procedures as thay do every day.
A.A.S and N.M are soon back in training .
There where 2 morons ( R.H and I.M ) which try to make fun of training department and one is kicked out and the other has better passport so he will last longer but not too long . Smart projects where S/O on A330 and TRE A330 to do CCQ TRE A320 which coused many TRE want to resign or done so . Now its time for them to come back.
If in QA out of 800 pilots you cant find Inst by senority its sad fact !
About F3 or Full landing adding 5 kts or more . Who care what airbus recommend when airbus them self change procedures every day ( EOACC ALT ,FUEL LEAK ,E.D....)
Airbus can recommend what thay want but youre ass is inside of that box. As well as safety office ( office)
We been recommended to land F3 and take minimum fuel and take off on +45C with pack off . Guess how many Capt want to do it online from my experiance on 330 about 20 % most of them want to get some position or brain function stop at last page of SOP or they are doing training flights so they have to do it others just lough and dont follow it .
A.A.S and N.M are soon back in training .
There where 2 morons ( R.H and I.M ) which try to make fun of training department and one is kicked out and the other has better passport so he will last longer but not too long . Smart projects where S/O on A330 and TRE A330 to do CCQ TRE A320 which coused many TRE want to resign or done so . Now its time for them to come back.
If in QA out of 800 pilots you cant find Inst by senority its sad fact !
About F3 or Full landing adding 5 kts or more . Who care what airbus recommend when airbus them self change procedures every day ( EOACC ALT ,FUEL LEAK ,E.D....)
Airbus can recommend what thay want but youre ass is inside of that box. As well as safety office ( office)
We been recommended to land F3 and take minimum fuel and take off on +45C with pack off . Guess how many Capt want to do it online from my experiance on 330 about 20 % most of them want to get some position or brain function stop at last page of SOP or they are doing training flights so they have to do it others just lough and dont follow it .
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Watch it lads. If you disagree with ceo he will say you must be management. It's his idea of a put down. And he knows how to operate the 330 so cannot be argued with.
Closters, I don't think Lulu mentioned the 'word'? Unless his post was modified? Just stating facts like you do.
Closters, I don't think Lulu mentioned the 'word'? Unless his post was modified? Just stating facts like you do.
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Flap 3 landing
we all know that airbus recommends flaps 3 if wind shear is reported,suspected or in forcast but flaps 3 is not the solution for preventing a hard landing. if a micro burst is in the vicinity airbus recommends to increase the speed to encounter the possible down draft during flare. Dont forget that using flap 3 for landing might make matter worst as flare technique is not same and we dont practice it every day.doing a flap3 landing is not a big deal for some one with bit of experience but I would think twice to let a second officer do a flap3 landing in Gusty conditions. Finally He will not be the last person with the hard landing, Next time it could be me or you who knows.
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P Closterman
Am not like you P Closterman i didnt mention name as you did in youre smart post about somebody. So before you start bull... think !
Last edited by EGGW; 20th Jul 2008 at 17:28. Reason: naming names
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Flaps, Vapp +kts......nonsense discussion you should read Sgnr dl altantique (sorry for my french spelling) he is right on the money.
Airlines that have S/O training on a widebody (and pls don't quote EK they are the same joke with more tall buildings), provide an abnitio REAL training including some turboprop building experience, the difference that 500 hrs can do on a young pilot is amazing, believe it or not even coming from a light twin.
Fly by wire a/c all you can do at 50 feet if your energy level is low is pray and see how severe is the bounce either to go around or maintain your pitch attitude........Is easy for PITA (new guy CP wanabe) to criticize other pilots but be careful the bigger the mouth the more it takes to fill it up my friend..
Cheers
Airlines that have S/O training on a widebody (and pls don't quote EK they are the same joke with more tall buildings), provide an abnitio REAL training including some turboprop building experience, the difference that 500 hrs can do on a young pilot is amazing, believe it or not even coming from a light twin.
Fly by wire a/c all you can do at 50 feet if your energy level is low is pray and see how severe is the bounce either to go around or maintain your pitch attitude........Is easy for PITA (new guy CP wanabe) to criticize other pilots but be careful the bigger the mouth the more it takes to fill it up my friend..
Cheers
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F3 versus Full
couldn't more agree with you pipe rider nice post,
let me add airbus recommend flaps 3 landing in windshear or gusty conditions neither forA/C energy at flare height 50 ft nor hard landing avoidance but mainly for your performance during the Goaround you are supposed to have performed if you do have conditions that triggered reactive windshear on the PFD, so your performance for the "approach climb segment" where the A/C is in better shape to trade cinetic energy for altitude gain which so called the windshear guidance witch ends for most A/c at 1500ft.
by the way I'm not a TRE, not in the Office as well.
remenber guys fly high ,fast and always be safe.
Thr Mct
let me add airbus recommend flaps 3 landing in windshear or gusty conditions neither forA/C energy at flare height 50 ft nor hard landing avoidance but mainly for your performance during the Goaround you are supposed to have performed if you do have conditions that triggered reactive windshear on the PFD, so your performance for the "approach climb segment" where the A/C is in better shape to trade cinetic energy for altitude gain which so called the windshear guidance witch ends for most A/c at 1500ft.
by the way I'm not a TRE, not in the Office as well.
remenber guys fly high ,fast and always be safe.
Thr Mct
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negligible correction if I may. Probably it's a matter of ACTUAL landing distance and not required firstly. Secondly F3 offers better controllability provided speed increment is applied.
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I think that is what Closterman wanted to say anyway, no?
F3 should not be used to prevent hard landings but he just said that F3 gives you a higher energy level to possibly recover better from a bounce-to-be!
I am not in favour of stating names here but in case a real di*% is mentioned, I do not mind. And with that I mean the second one mentioned! He should not even be on a left seat!
F3 should not be used to prevent hard landings but he just said that F3 gives you a higher energy level to possibly recover better from a bounce-to-be!
I am not in favour of stating names here but in case a real di*% is mentioned, I do not mind. And with that I mean the second one mentioned! He should not even be on a left seat!