Emirates 777 Incident In Glasgow
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: london
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All read
Iv been with emirates for 12 years, u might have been flying in some bush for that long....... but just for ur information whenever a local was involved in a problem with management, the decision was always more severe.... infact more than expats.
E.g.: The expat captain who reported to duty drunk in London a couple of months ago was reinstated after jail.... where the local F/O who was drugged in Germany and didnt report drunk to duty, was fired without investigation... do ur research before u spread rumours about people who are paying ur bills.
Sincerely,
Chutny
E.g.: The expat captain who reported to duty drunk in London a couple of months ago was reinstated after jail.... where the local F/O who was drugged in Germany and didnt report drunk to duty, was fired without investigation... do ur research before u spread rumours about people who are paying ur bills.
Sincerely,
Chutny
fo4ever. Hmmm, interesting handle. Unless i've been living on a different EK planet, always possible, visual approaches are only permissible if you have no other means of completing an instrument approach. Such as visual off a circling approach, or a self vectored ILS 
EGGW
EGGW
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: >FL310
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fo4evr,
Hmm. Can't remember the last time coming into DXB that I heard, "We have the field in sight, we will take the visual." "Cleared for the visual 30R". When was the last time you spotted the airfield 10 miles out and requested the visual approach. And I don't mean, intercepting the LOC, seeing the airfield and looking out the window. Don't forget, not being able to fly practice VNAV approaches. This is what I meant by EK's response to an incident.
Sorry for the thread creep......
Hmm. Can't remember the last time coming into DXB that I heard, "We have the field in sight, we will take the visual." "Cleared for the visual 30R". When was the last time you spotted the airfield 10 miles out and requested the visual approach. And I don't mean, intercepting the LOC, seeing the airfield and looking out the window. Don't forget, not being able to fly practice VNAV approaches. This is what I meant by EK's response to an incident.
Sorry for the thread creep......
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To split hairs:
From the FOM....
A pilot, on an instrument approach may revert to a visual approach:
. 1 If it is required by ATC seperation procedures blah blah
. 2 If it becomes more efficient to continue with the visual approach rather than complete the full instrument approach procedure
All subject of course to briefing the extra required bits........ The FOM of course doesn't say anything about having to be established on final before taking the visual. So you actually have a fair bit of leeway. To be honest TU, I don't think that telling DXB approach that you're visual is going to work with all the other traffic - but try it at places like EBB, ACC etc. It works nicely
From the FOM....
A pilot, on an instrument approach may revert to a visual approach:
. 1 If it is required by ATC seperation procedures blah blah
. 2 If it becomes more efficient to continue with the visual approach rather than complete the full instrument approach procedure
All subject of course to briefing the extra required bits........ The FOM of course doesn't say anything about having to be established on final before taking the visual. So you actually have a fair bit of leeway. To be honest TU, I don't think that telling DXB approach that you're visual is going to work with all the other traffic - but try it at places like EBB, ACC etc. It works nicely
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: a seat on a fence
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To Return to the Subject
'Emirates 26, line up and wait two three'
'Emirates 26, clear take off two three'
'Tower, Emirates 26 we need another two minutes'
'Shuttle 40 go around, break break, Emirates 26, take off clearance cancelled, taxi forward and vacate left on Bravo, hold at Alpha One'
Shortly:
The sound of wailing Trents - wailing dies down - a guttural utterance - "Ag, you doffie"
There but for the grace of God........?
Whatever.
'Emirates 26, clear take off two three'
'Tower, Emirates 26 we need another two minutes'
'Shuttle 40 go around, break break, Emirates 26, take off clearance cancelled, taxi forward and vacate left on Bravo, hold at Alpha One'
Shortly:
The sound of wailing Trents - wailing dies down - a guttural utterance - "Ag, you doffie"
There but for the grace of God........?
Whatever.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Backabeyond
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not sure what I'm missing. If the ac on approach had been asked to go around, why was the EK flight asked to taxi forward and vacate at all?
As to the previous posts, I really don't see what your interpretation of EKs visual approach policy has to do with anything.
As to the previous posts, I really don't see what your interpretation of EKs visual approach policy has to do with anything.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WARNING!! MASSIVE THREAD CREEP!
@ scanscanscan,
for god's sake if you have so little confidence in your handling abilities that you believe a visual to be so hazardous then by all means don't be doing them! There are some decent risk management metrics you can apply to visuals just like any other procedure: day/night? familiarity with aerodrome? tune/ident the ILS for the appropriate runway and so on. Pretty basic stuff, or has the automagic and EK's pathological fear of flying the aircraft, and practising things like VNAV apps, gotten to you? There's a reason why visualsa are permitted with strict conditions in the FOM!
The GF A320 is a complete red herring, unless you're to suggesting that a 360 at less than 1000 AGL at night over unlit featureless water is a normal, accepted maneuvre on a visual. Besides, everything about that incident screams CRM disaster, nothing to do with being visual anyway.
Ok back to your regular programming...err...what were we talking about again? Ah yes...GLA...lovely place, wonderful people. Why I remember this one lass I met there, wee little slip of a thing...
@ scanscanscan,
for god's sake if you have so little confidence in your handling abilities that you believe a visual to be so hazardous then by all means don't be doing them! There are some decent risk management metrics you can apply to visuals just like any other procedure: day/night? familiarity with aerodrome? tune/ident the ILS for the appropriate runway and so on. Pretty basic stuff, or has the automagic and EK's pathological fear of flying the aircraft, and practising things like VNAV apps, gotten to you? There's a reason why visualsa are permitted with strict conditions in the FOM!
The GF A320 is a complete red herring, unless you're to suggesting that a 360 at less than 1000 AGL at night over unlit featureless water is a normal, accepted maneuvre on a visual. Besides, everything about that incident screams CRM disaster, nothing to do with being visual anyway.
Ok back to your regular programming...err...what were we talking about again? Ah yes...GLA...lovely place, wonderful people. Why I remember this one lass I met there, wee little slip of a thing...
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Bit nosey aren't you
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Iv been with emirates for 12 years, u might have been flying in some bush for that long....... but just for ur information whenever a local was involved in a problem with management, the decision was always more severe.... infact more than expats.
E.g.: The expat captain who reported to duty drunk in London a couple of months ago was reinstated after jail.... where the local F/O who was drugged in Germany and didnt report drunk to duty, was fired without investigation... do ur research before u spread rumours about people who are paying ur bills.
Sincerely,
Chutny
E.g.: The expat captain who reported to duty drunk in London a couple of months ago was reinstated after jail.... where the local F/O who was drugged in Germany and didnt report drunk to duty, was fired without investigation... do ur research before u spread rumours about people who are paying ur bills.
Sincerely,
Chutny
The Gf A320 did a sort of night visual onto 12 at Bahrain
Unless i've been living on a different EK planet, always possible, visual approaches are only permissible if you have no other means of completing an instrument approach. Such as visual off a circling approach, or a self vectored ILS
But none of that has anything to do with this incident. I have met the chap concerned and know of his reputation but really think he made a mistake that anyone else could have made. I feel most vulnerable on the ground and sometimes feel quite threatened blundering around in some of our more exotic (Glasgow excluded) locations.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, there but the grace of god... A very human error.
Have had various dealings with the Capt and he is both professional and motivated, the fact that he is management, just means he does not get as much practice, especially as AAR demands that his management pilots fly a minimal amount.
Have had various dealings with the Capt and he is both professional and motivated, the fact that he is management, just means he does not get as much practice, especially as AAR demands that his management pilots fly a minimal amount.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: >FL310
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok girls, I stand somewhat corrected about the visual approaches. Shall we agree and say that EK doesn't "encourage" visual approaches. My post was basically about new FCIs that come out when there is an incident or whatever. And along those lines, do a little hand flying at altitude and watch you hand get "slapped". But again, this thread isn't about some silly FOM/FCI instructions, but rather what managements' response is to any incident. More restrictions. Maybe not in this case.
I too know this captain, and IMHO, I will say he is one of the good guys, in every respect. Would really be a shame if anything at all came of this.
TU
I too know this captain, and IMHO, I will say he is one of the good guys, in every respect. Would really be a shame if anything at all came of this.
TU
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Palm
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like there will be two more jobs available at EK!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oh c'mon don't sulk....where did I say you should land wherever you want, violate tape parameters (??) or even anything about handflying? I never did...you did.
My statement was more along the lines of procedures (and the mentality that precedes them) being rigid to the point of absurdity. At some point perhaps we'll realize the time and energy spent covering our asses could be better put to use performing our jobs safely and efficiently. Then again, being the Gulf, I have my doubts.
In actual fact I'm too damn lazy to do a visual. But this idea that pilots shouldn't be flying airplanes...is that an Airbus thing or something?
oh...and I'm sure the GLA crew is kicking themselves, just wishing they had had you to remind them of the L1011...would have made the difference, I'm sure.
My statement was more along the lines of procedures (and the mentality that precedes them) being rigid to the point of absurdity. At some point perhaps we'll realize the time and energy spent covering our asses could be better put to use performing our jobs safely and efficiently. Then again, being the Gulf, I have my doubts.
In actual fact I'm too damn lazy to do a visual. But this idea that pilots shouldn't be flying airplanes...is that an Airbus thing or something?
oh...and I'm sure the GLA crew is kicking themselves, just wishing they had had you to remind them of the L1011...would have made the difference, I'm sure.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: min rest
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not much use kicking themselves after the event........should have had a heads up brief on previous Gf incidents.... the dangers of trying the impossible when ordered by ATC who know nothing of the taxi and turning abilities of GF/ EK widebody aircraft....
Possibly... it looks like the crew got caught out trying to do what they were told by ATC... sufficent pavement hardly being available for the manouvre asked for.....that is what happened twice at GF once in a L1011 at CDG and once at LHR in A340...still I am out of this thread you will be pleased to read.....expect a memo on the visual reference points on your aircraft and their use of guessing accurately where your wheels are....happy blind flying and blind surface manouvering...mind the wing tips..if you can see em.
Cheers and goodbyeee from Scan
Possibly... it looks like the crew got caught out trying to do what they were told by ATC... sufficent pavement hardly being available for the manouvre asked for.....that is what happened twice at GF once in a L1011 at CDG and once at LHR in A340...still I am out of this thread you will be pleased to read.....expect a memo on the visual reference points on your aircraft and their use of guessing accurately where your wheels are....happy blind flying and blind surface manouvering...mind the wing tips..if you can see em.
Cheers and goodbyeee from Scan
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Our Take off check list at GF was changed to add "Take Off" clearance received, supposedly after a management pilot got airborne without a clearance. I wonder why they did'nt stick in "Landing clearance" received while they were about it.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quick question. Was line up clearance accepted before the Cabin secure checks were received? If so, perhaps the first hole in the cheese.
Heard it happen on one or two occassions in DXB and can't for the life of me understand why people still do it.
As I said, question in this case. Not an accusation. This was also a training flight so workload higher than normal for TC.
Harry
Heard it happen on one or two occassions in DXB and can't for the life of me understand why people still do it.
As I said, question in this case. Not an accusation. This was also a training flight so workload higher than normal for TC.
Harry
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take off clearance without calling ready is also a regular occurrence in LHR and many other airports. Quite simple really, don't accept any clearance you can't meet. Don't know if this had any bearing on this case or not and I'm not that sure it was a training flight either.
How significant was the clearance to vacate at that point by the controller?
How significant was the clearance to vacate at that point by the controller?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sandy Surroundings!
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The team at the back were not ready to go and the a/c was requested to vacate the runway. Would have told ATC to take a flying jump!
Worked with the P1 and have a lot of respect for this individual.
Worked with the P1 and have a lot of respect for this individual.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: sand box
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If ATC tell you to vacate the runway why the hell would you tell them to jump?
you would have to have a bloody good reason to stay on an active runway the lack of cabin secure is not one of them. Next time you are told to go around by ATC i just hope you obey them, the principal is exactly the same as ignoring them on the ground.
you would have to have a bloody good reason to stay on an active runway the lack of cabin secure is not one of them. Next time you are told to go around by ATC i just hope you obey them, the principal is exactly the same as ignoring them on the ground.
Last edited by emratty; 24th Sep 2007 at 08:55. Reason: spelling!