EK MC miscomm
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I for one would have strongly recommended that decision and would have needed a very strong argument from Ops to avoid implementing it
When you say "de-plane the PAX and bags in LHR and ferry the aircraft to LGW", how much time REALLY did they have ahead? Was there a departure slot at the right time?
Fractional, what 'refresher' might that be then?
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Posting that these types of problems handled poorly because the gentleman involed was a Dec is ridiculous. That is like saying that every Captain who is not a Dec will handle problems better than any Captain who is. It just ain't so. The same thing applies to a Captian with ten years in the seat and one with five. The "less" experienced guy may well do a better job. It all comes down to the individual on the day.
This whole thread has developed from the words of a passenger who could not have known all the facts. We have not seen information from any other sources. Some have suggested the Captain did all he could and some have suggested he should have done more. Fairly tough calls considering they themselves don't have all the information. Perhaps we "should stay below the line" and give the benifit of doubt to the Captain and the rest concerned.
This whole event will be critiqued for many days to come But there is one undeniable fact...all concerned are still here to talk about it which means the Skipper did his primary job. The saftey and security of the Pax, Crew and aircraft has been maintained.
7
This whole thread has developed from the words of a passenger who could not have known all the facts. We have not seen information from any other sources. Some have suggested the Captain did all he could and some have suggested he should have done more. Fairly tough calls considering they themselves don't have all the information. Perhaps we "should stay below the line" and give the benifit of doubt to the Captain and the rest concerned.
This whole event will be critiqued for many days to come But there is one undeniable fact...all concerned are still here to talk about it which means the Skipper did his primary job. The saftey and security of the Pax, Crew and aircraft has been maintained.
7
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Here's a fact:
The one chink in the plan to offload the pax is that there were no EK groundstaff at heathrow to help them out. Just the dispatch company. So they had no chance of offloading the pax and bags before the curfew and barely made it out as it was. Yes, it was a complete cockup.
I will agree with what a few of the guys said, that they are severely understaffed in ops. The unfortunate things is that if you diverted with your hair-on-fire and forgot to send an acars msg to ops, you'd be in for a good bollocking when back in Dubai since you didn't follow the FCI's on the issue. Of course I'd personally tell them to stuff it in that case with a wry grin
A disaster, yes, but I guess I've just come to roll my eyes and to expect them.
The one chink in the plan to offload the pax is that there were no EK groundstaff at heathrow to help them out. Just the dispatch company. So they had no chance of offloading the pax and bags before the curfew and barely made it out as it was. Yes, it was a complete cockup.
I will agree with what a few of the guys said, that they are severely understaffed in ops. The unfortunate things is that if you diverted with your hair-on-fire and forgot to send an acars msg to ops, you'd be in for a good bollocking when back in Dubai since you didn't follow the FCI's on the issue. Of course I'd personally tell them to stuff it in that case with a wry grin
A disaster, yes, but I guess I've just come to roll my eyes and to expect them.
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MR8 - am just coming into this thread, but, regarding your comment about
"For example, the fully established at 1500ft thing is completely ridiculous"
..read your books boy. FOM Ch 15 P29. (Hint: you don't have to be).
TM
Sorry TM, but MR8 is right. If you check it does state that one has to have gear down and landing flaps selected. So 1500ft, be configured.......1000ft or 500ft be stabilised, depending on the weather. Damn, I hate to agree with 8.
"For example, the fully established at 1500ft thing is completely ridiculous"
..read your books boy. FOM Ch 15 P29. (Hint: you don't have to be).
TM
Sorry TM, but MR8 is right. If you check it does state that one has to have gear down and landing flaps selected. So 1500ft, be configured.......1000ft or 500ft be stabilised, depending on the weather. Damn, I hate to agree with 8.
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MR8 Agree 100%
BYMONEK Agree 95% : Very good post, but don't really think its fair to blast the skipper because he was a DEC. It appears he has slotted right into the EK way of thinking straight away ie. do as the company says or else!
I have to say that I would have tried my utmost to deplane those PAX at LHR even if it meant leaving their bags/freight on board to save time. (I do not believe for one minute that there were no staff on duty at LHR, the flight was only an hour late for gods sake!). And I wouldn't have taken off until I'd spoken with SENIOR management on the SAT phone to protest this crap decision!
There is absolutely no way they would have had enough fuel remaining from the original flight as they would have been min fuel as the had to offload freight at DXB (BTW, what a piece of crap that old B777 is, can't even take a full load on a poxy 7 hour flight to LHR --- should have taken a 'Bus
), so they would have had to pull on stand to refuel, load sheet, flight plan etc which with the best will in the world would have taken 30 mins....so why not let the PAX off then?
Sorry, but crap decision all round and that includes the flight crew (sorry guys, had to be said), if I'm missing a glaring piece of info then I take it back, but on face value, they should have argued the toss!!
Be sensible out there boys and girls, or we're gonna start to look very Mickey Mouse!
BYMONEK Agree 95% : Very good post, but don't really think its fair to blast the skipper because he was a DEC. It appears he has slotted right into the EK way of thinking straight away ie. do as the company says or else!
I have to say that I would have tried my utmost to deplane those PAX at LHR even if it meant leaving their bags/freight on board to save time. (I do not believe for one minute that there were no staff on duty at LHR, the flight was only an hour late for gods sake!). And I wouldn't have taken off until I'd spoken with SENIOR management on the SAT phone to protest this crap decision!
There is absolutely no way they would have had enough fuel remaining from the original flight as they would have been min fuel as the had to offload freight at DXB (BTW, what a piece of crap that old B777 is, can't even take a full load on a poxy 7 hour flight to LHR --- should have taken a 'Bus
), so they would have had to pull on stand to refuel, load sheet, flight plan etc which with the best will in the world would have taken 30 mins....so why not let the PAX off then?Sorry, but crap decision all round and that includes the flight crew (sorry guys, had to be said), if I'm missing a glaring piece of info then I take it back, but on face value, they should have argued the toss!!
Be sensible out there boys and girls, or we're gonna start to look very Mickey Mouse!
Last edited by Oblaaspop; 5th Aug 2007 at 22:18. Reason: no
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BYMONEK
You sound bitter ..... but your DEC witchhunt is a double-edged sword.
You write:
Well the skipper in JNB had just that and unfortunately stuck to some of it too closely (god knows what would have been written if it had been a DEC....).
You were talking about a quality issue of somewhat 7 years spent as FO's in classic carriers before moving left. Agreed. What about some 6000h-FO's from regios that move over after 3 years on WB-FO in this region? Are they good enough just because "trained" by EK?
The issue about such incidents as in LHR have nothing to do with DEC's or low (wrong) hour-FO's. It's about culture in EK. The authorities (not necessarily the local one, i doubt it could), the owners (unfortunately there's about only HHSMo that has the ...... for it) and the public need to wake up and realise that with mangers like AAR and TC such blind following of SOP and directives will initially lead to more equally dumb incidents and finally to even more tragic ones.
Let's focus on THAT, please.
You sound bitter ..... but your DEC witchhunt is a double-edged sword.
You write:
"Whilst we have most Captains here with only 3-4 years, it's more than enough time to understand the Company culture and 'how things work".
You were talking about a quality issue of somewhat 7 years spent as FO's in classic carriers before moving left. Agreed. What about some 6000h-FO's from regios that move over after 3 years on WB-FO in this region? Are they good enough just because "trained" by EK?
The issue about such incidents as in LHR have nothing to do with DEC's or low (wrong) hour-FO's. It's about culture in EK. The authorities (not necessarily the local one, i doubt it could), the owners (unfortunately there's about only HHSMo that has the ...... for it) and the public need to wake up and realise that with mangers like AAR and TC such blind following of SOP and directives will initially lead to more equally dumb incidents and finally to even more tragic ones.
Let's focus on THAT, please.
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I've talked with the purser directly and the crew were told all the groundstaff had either gone home or were at gatwick to help with the ensuing problems there. If my memory serves me, they were at a remote parking place too, so with no buses, no time to deplane.
Hey, I agree it was crap, but maybe he did everything he could, so the armchair quarterbacks can now stand down.
Hey, I agree it was crap, but maybe he did everything he could, so the armchair quarterbacks can now stand down.
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No, I'm most definately not bitter and apologies to those offended by my perceived attitude towards this individual Captain.
I don't have every single fact to hand and on reflection it may well have been wrong to put most of the blame with him but I still think he must shoulder some of the flack. I know that other departments cock up and when these errors impact on us directly, we are the ones who have to deal with it in a professional manner and have to put it right. Yes, the decision he made was safe but as Captains, sometimes just a little more thought process is required to also achieve an efficient and dare I say it, sensible outcome. I'm not saying that because he was a DEC it precluded him from making the right decision, merely that he was 'handicapped' by his lack of time here. Because of Company culture and nothing to do with hours.
Regarding your comment on JNB, that is a different matter altogether and involved training issues. Taking of which, fractional, we don't have refreshers anymore. Only the 2 hours annual SEP 'CRM' which is taught by non accredited instructors.
BYMONEK
I don't have every single fact to hand and on reflection it may well have been wrong to put most of the blame with him but I still think he must shoulder some of the flack. I know that other departments cock up and when these errors impact on us directly, we are the ones who have to deal with it in a professional manner and have to put it right. Yes, the decision he made was safe but as Captains, sometimes just a little more thought process is required to also achieve an efficient and dare I say it, sensible outcome. I'm not saying that because he was a DEC it precluded him from making the right decision, merely that he was 'handicapped' by his lack of time here. Because of Company culture and nothing to do with hours.
Regarding your comment on JNB, that is a different matter altogether and involved training issues. Taking of which, fractional, we don't have refreshers anymore. Only the 2 hours annual SEP 'CRM' which is taught by non accredited instructors.
BYMONEK
Such clever armchair specialists...were you actually there and party to the conversations/options etc that went from flight deck to OPS? No? Neither was I....suggest you wise-a*ses are in no position to make judgement, although I agree it was a disappointing chain of events! 
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Tango Uniiform,
Without wishing to instigate 'thread drift', you DO NOT have to be configured at 1500ft (unless for LVO) - just have the landing flap SELECTED (and the gear down). (Depending on the type you operate, it will then take perhaps 300ft of glideslope to become stabilised. )
This is both the wording and intention of the FOM - for those lacking skill it allows decelerated/delayed flap approaches while still meeting company stabilisation requirements.
It's OK - you can go back to not agreeing with MR8.
TM
Without wishing to instigate 'thread drift', you DO NOT have to be configured at 1500ft (unless for LVO) - just have the landing flap SELECTED (and the gear down). (Depending on the type you operate, it will then take perhaps 300ft of glideslope to become stabilised. )
This is both the wording and intention of the FOM - for those lacking skill it allows decelerated/delayed flap approaches while still meeting company stabilisation requirements.
It's OK - you can go back to not agreeing with MR8.
TM
Last edited by trimotor; 6th Aug 2007 at 13:20.
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15.10Approach
15.10.1 General
◊ The use of Low Power/Low Drag
(LP/LD) and Continuous Descent
Approach (CDA) techniques during the
Initial & Intermediate approach phases
are encouraged. However, timely
configuration changes are crucial to
ensure that stable approach criteria are
met. ATC requirements such as track
shorting or speed requests, which could
result in an unstabilised approach, are to
be declined and an explanation provided.
15.10.1.1 1,500 ft AAL Configuration
Selection
◊ It is required that Landing Gear is down,
and landing Flap configuration selected,
no later than 1,500 ft AAL.
15.10.1.2 1,000 ft AAL Approach
Stabilisation
◊ 1,000 ft AAL is the cut-off point, at
which the approach is to be discontinued
if stable approach criteria are not met.
◊ If a reasonable certainty exists that the
aircraft will become stabilized by 500 ft
AAL, the cut-off may be amended to 500
ft AAL. This is permitted only if both
the following conditions are met at 1,000
ft AAL:
n i. The Landing Checklist is completed,
ENOugh sideslip
15.10.1 General
◊ The use of Low Power/Low Drag
(LP/LD) and Continuous Descent
Approach (CDA) techniques during the
Initial & Intermediate approach phases
are encouraged. However, timely
configuration changes are crucial to
ensure that stable approach criteria are
met. ATC requirements such as track
shorting or speed requests, which could
result in an unstabilised approach, are to
be declined and an explanation provided.
15.10.1.1 1,500 ft AAL Configuration
Selection
◊ It is required that Landing Gear is down,
and landing Flap configuration selected,
no later than 1,500 ft AAL.
15.10.1.2 1,000 ft AAL Approach
Stabilisation
◊ 1,000 ft AAL is the cut-off point, at
which the approach is to be discontinued
if stable approach criteria are not met.
◊ If a reasonable certainty exists that the
aircraft will become stabilized by 500 ft
AAL, the cut-off may be amended to 500
ft AAL. This is permitted only if both
the following conditions are met at 1,000
ft AAL:
n i. The Landing Checklist is completed,
ENOugh sideslip
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only at EK can a diversion fiasco discussion be turned in to a debate on stabilisation criteria. if its that easy to get so side tracked from the origonal topic , its easy to see how opps could drop the ball too. By the way what is the price of eggs these days ?
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Lord Flash. No selected does not mean configured. Say you selected landing flap at 50ft - they'd still be running out when you landed - and you wouldn't be configured.
Anyway, let's get back to bleating about things we only know half the story of.
TM
Anyway, let's get back to bleating about things we only know half the story of.
TM
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Thanks Tri, but it is being pedantic, height loss from flap 3 to full from selection to reaching full must only be about 50ft. But,yes, if you want to, I agree that legally at 1502ft you can call for flap full, then by the time PNF has reacted and selected it at 1500ft you are legal, but it think the gist of it all is to have everything configured by 1500.
Anyways - back to the topic on hand-
It sounds like the crew were snookered, and the Pax shafted. An ugly outcome for Emirates, but at the end of the day, no one was hurt.
Just like a couple of days ago when the baggage loaders broke down and aircraft were being delayed for an hour plus due lack of bags. We departed half and hr late minus 40 bags, and I heard one 777 was missing 270. Ouch.
Anyways - back to the topic on hand-
It sounds like the crew were snookered, and the Pax shafted. An ugly outcome for Emirates, but at the end of the day, no one was hurt.
Just like a couple of days ago when the baggage loaders broke down and aircraft were being delayed for an hour plus due lack of bags. We departed half and hr late minus 40 bags, and I heard one 777 was missing 270. Ouch.
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yep, pax were caught in the middle. Rumour has it one pax was a senior 'wheel' in the company...
(Flap 20 to Flap 30 in the 777 will take 300ft, give or take the time to complete the checklist as well. Pedantic it may be, but that's the game we are in. Be configured at 1500 if you like, but I can assure you that is not the gist of the selection requirement. How do you cope with 160 to 4nm?)
(Flap 20 to Flap 30 in the 777 will take 300ft, give or take the time to complete the checklist as well. Pedantic it may be, but that's the game we are in. Be configured at 1500 if you like, but I can assure you that is not the gist of the selection requirement. How do you cope with 160 to 4nm?)
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Interesting thread. Sounds like a post mortem on an accident which it wasn't. Merely a bad day at the office. Probably some mistakes were made which hopefully will be learnt from. I'm sure at least the captain in question will be a better captain for the experience. However reading the thread it seems no one knows the full story but are taking a newspaper report as the basis. Have we learn nothing?
This is undoubtably the price one pays for rapid expansion but from a business perspective rapid expansion and rapid pilot training is the right thing to do. (look at today's Gulf News). EK have some good people hence we make money (I agree there are a few idiots too)
As for the discussion on stabilisation please don't embarrass us all by demonstrating not everyone knows by when they should be stabilised. For the rulebound - don't forget good judgement and logic can take precedence over SOP. You shouldn't be a captain if fear of the oak desk results in you and you passengers being in an oak box.
As for legal arguments based on a few feet - get real - even the best lawyers will have a tough time making that a persuasive motion.
This is undoubtably the price one pays for rapid expansion but from a business perspective rapid expansion and rapid pilot training is the right thing to do. (look at today's Gulf News). EK have some good people hence we make money (I agree there are a few idiots too)
As for the discussion on stabilisation please don't embarrass us all by demonstrating not everyone knows by when they should be stabilised. For the rulebound - don't forget good judgement and logic can take precedence over SOP. You shouldn't be a captain if fear of the oak desk results in you and you passengers being in an oak box.
As for legal arguments based on a few feet - get real - even the best lawyers will have a tough time making that a persuasive motion.
What Trimotor says is spot on, its that the landing flap must be selected by 1500' aal. The 777 takes a long time to travel from 20 to 30, whilst all Airbus take a nano second to travel from 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 depending on landing flap you want. You do NOT have to have the flap at the landing setting by 1500' aal. You are quite wrong if you think you do. However, if you do its safe, but its not required.
Anyhow, thread drift over.
I had a freind on the flight (non EK), and she was royally p***ed off at the fiasco. Sounds like a royal communication cock up. The crew are the operational lynch pins, shame they were left out of the loop prior to landing at LHR
EGGW
Anyhow, thread drift over.
I had a freind on the flight (non EK), and she was royally p***ed off at the fiasco. Sounds like a royal communication cock up. The crew are the operational lynch pins, shame they were left out of the loop prior to landing at LHR
EGGW
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ladies,
you are splitting hairs now, why dont you just fly the aircraft, land and go home, it cant be that difficult.
are you pilots or what, if an outsider reads this thread he thinks that you are a bunch of w******.
you cant be serious thinking if you select flap full in 1502 feet and bla bla bla...
you are splitting hairs now, why dont you just fly the aircraft, land and go home, it cant be that difficult.
are you pilots or what, if an outsider reads this thread he thinks that you are a bunch of w******.
you cant be serious thinking if you select flap full in 1502 feet and bla bla bla...