Attention EK A330 pilots
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Max AB
Not wanting to pour fuel on the flames...BUT this kind of thing happens every day into Dubai from both east and west.
If it was just the once, I would say "oh well, what to do" and get on with life. This is a very regular occurrence, from the Muscat side it isn't a huge problem, we have room to bend people around behind the guy down in the weeds...the problem is from the Desdi side...we have no room to play and I have seen many a time A330s dragging it in wanting below F150 at ITITA when we are on RWY30.
Naturally we are trying to keep you high to keep you moving quicker across the ground (that is all we really care about). When you are at A100, the guys on a "normal" descent profile 10,000 feet or more above you are eating you alive!
Remember you get to see it from your cockpit with your aircraft...we get to see it with all of them.
Granted it was not as bad, but 2 EK A330s came through BUBIN today, both were maintaining F200 well prior to TAPRA. Using the 4:1 ratio that one of you gentlemen mentioned to me, they were both still in excess of 20 miles "low", for what you would expect.
Muttley Crew...
Is the gripe about direct tracking directed to Dubai or UAE? Just wondering. We sometimes give away direct to segregate tracks, and sometimes to reduce R/T as we have to give full route clearances through the airspace...takes a lot of time when you do it a couple of hundred times per day.
Thanks again for the replies
If it was just the once, I would say "oh well, what to do" and get on with life. This is a very regular occurrence, from the Muscat side it isn't a huge problem, we have room to bend people around behind the guy down in the weeds...the problem is from the Desdi side...we have no room to play and I have seen many a time A330s dragging it in wanting below F150 at ITITA when we are on RWY30.
Naturally we are trying to keep you high to keep you moving quicker across the ground (that is all we really care about). When you are at A100, the guys on a "normal" descent profile 10,000 feet or more above you are eating you alive!
Remember you get to see it from your cockpit with your aircraft...we get to see it with all of them.
Granted it was not as bad, but 2 EK A330s came through BUBIN today, both were maintaining F200 well prior to TAPRA. Using the 4:1 ratio that one of you gentlemen mentioned to me, they were both still in excess of 20 miles "low", for what you would expect.
Muttley Crew...
Is the gripe about direct tracking directed to Dubai or UAE? Just wondering. We sometimes give away direct to segregate tracks, and sometimes to reduce R/T as we have to give full route clearances through the airspace...takes a lot of time when you do it a couple of hundred times per day.
Thanks again for the replies
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After having finally reading that latest fleet letter to us all, it cleared up some issues I have always wondered about wrt to ATC in Dubai. For me, it was a bit eye-opening with regards to limitations that you guys have.
In fact, last night, coming into Dubai, my partner was bitching about being told to speed up, and then once we were passed on to the next controller we were told of our impending hold at Desdi. My colleague then blasted off into a long winded bitch session about the lack of intercommunication between controllers. I just sat there wondering why he was preceding to the hold at 300kts when ATC told us that we were absolved of airspeed restrictions. So, in my best efforts not to tell him how to fly a profile, I gently asked ATC if we could slow down without conflicting with other traffic. Due to this, we never even entered the hold and we entered the pattern with about an 6 minute delay and hardly any consequences wrt to fuel.
All I am saying is that its good that we talk about these things. You have different priorities than we do and knowing for example why you keep us at 8000' on downwind and expect us to be able to take a short turn to final makes my job easier. Energy management in some aircraft can be a bitch if you don't know how to do it properly and keep that in mind please, especially considering the varied levels of experience at Ek.
I will say one thing though, that guy working before the 'Director' did a very good job in my opinion. I have no idea what nationality but i suspect something like a Zimbo or South African, but my congrats to him.
Then again, listening to the putz behind us, and yeah i don't mind saying this, the American pilot who clearly thought the world was his oyster, I can understand why he got the run around from ATC. I mean really, is it so tough to say........... UAE control, Emirates 9978, passing FL 146 for 8000 feet ? What the hell is with this............. AHHH, this is Emirates 9978 checkin in with you, down to 8 thousand. ?????????
I can totally understand why you guys get frustrated some times.
In fact, last night, coming into Dubai, my partner was bitching about being told to speed up, and then once we were passed on to the next controller we were told of our impending hold at Desdi. My colleague then blasted off into a long winded bitch session about the lack of intercommunication between controllers. I just sat there wondering why he was preceding to the hold at 300kts when ATC told us that we were absolved of airspeed restrictions. So, in my best efforts not to tell him how to fly a profile, I gently asked ATC if we could slow down without conflicting with other traffic. Due to this, we never even entered the hold and we entered the pattern with about an 6 minute delay and hardly any consequences wrt to fuel.
All I am saying is that its good that we talk about these things. You have different priorities than we do and knowing for example why you keep us at 8000' on downwind and expect us to be able to take a short turn to final makes my job easier. Energy management in some aircraft can be a bitch if you don't know how to do it properly and keep that in mind please, especially considering the varied levels of experience at Ek.
I will say one thing though, that guy working before the 'Director' did a very good job in my opinion. I have no idea what nationality but i suspect something like a Zimbo or South African, but my congrats to him.
Then again, listening to the putz behind us, and yeah i don't mind saying this, the American pilot who clearly thought the world was his oyster, I can understand why he got the run around from ATC. I mean really, is it so tough to say........... UAE control, Emirates 9978, passing FL 146 for 8000 feet ? What the hell is with this............. AHHH, this is Emirates 9978 checkin in with you, down to 8 thousand. ?????????
I can totally understand why you guys get frustrated some times.
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DD
For your info. The managed descent profile on the 330 is very conservative,especially with the new idle factor and 99.9% of EK 330 drivers fly managed descents. Rarely have I seen anyone intentionally fly past the descent arrow before requesting descent.
I always do my own calculations and frequently find that the fms wants to descend 30-40 miles before my open descent calculations (especially with default speed settings). I still fly the managed descent as this is what the company want me to do.
I flew into Dubai last week via bubin and the fms profile showed 10000 ft at approx 65 miles with a slight tailwind. ATC restrictions didnt allow the managed descent but it would have worked out nicely. The guy you are talking about was more than likely just flying a managed descent and prompting you for lower so that he could stay on the profile without leveling off. Of course we all have the option of open descent and use of speed/ airbrakes, but thats not the point.
Like others have mentioned, its often very difficult to predict what is going to happen on atc handover and I have frequently found myself being told to speed up by one agency and slow down by another immediatly on handover.
You might feel bullied by pilots constantly asking for further descent or speeds but it is necessary as second guessing dosnt work.
Ronnie
For your info. The managed descent profile on the 330 is very conservative,especially with the new idle factor and 99.9% of EK 330 drivers fly managed descents. Rarely have I seen anyone intentionally fly past the descent arrow before requesting descent.
I always do my own calculations and frequently find that the fms wants to descend 30-40 miles before my open descent calculations (especially with default speed settings). I still fly the managed descent as this is what the company want me to do.
I flew into Dubai last week via bubin and the fms profile showed 10000 ft at approx 65 miles with a slight tailwind. ATC restrictions didnt allow the managed descent but it would have worked out nicely. The guy you are talking about was more than likely just flying a managed descent and prompting you for lower so that he could stay on the profile without leveling off. Of course we all have the option of open descent and use of speed/ airbrakes, but thats not the point.
Like others have mentioned, its often very difficult to predict what is going to happen on atc handover and I have frequently found myself being told to speed up by one agency and slow down by another immediatly on handover.
You might feel bullied by pilots constantly asking for further descent or speeds but it is necessary as second guessing dosnt work.
Ronnie
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Well, let's just wait for the second runway to reopen. ATC then will be able to use separate corridors to each runway.
The fast one for jets, the other slow one for Antonov 12s, ATRs and EK 330ies......
The fast one for jets, the other slow one for Antonov 12s, ATRs and EK 330ies......
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Managed Descents
Where does it say you have to fly managed descents especially if the profile is crap??????
The change in Idle perf. in the FMGEC is taking the easy way out to stop unstable approaches. The correct way is to teach proper energy management principles, something I have never seen done in all my years in EK.
Remember the computing principle GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. The box is not always right!!!!
Enough Said
The change in Idle perf. in the FMGEC is taking the easy way out to stop unstable approaches. The correct way is to teach proper energy management principles, something I have never seen done in all my years in EK.
Remember the computing principle GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. The box is not always right!!!!Enough Said
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GMDS, I really hope that was tongue in cheek, cos if not you will be severely dissapointed to learn the second runway may reduce the number of go rounds on night shifts in Dubai, thus reducing the number of panic calls to hold all traffic from both sides that we recieve in the UAE ACC, but it won't make much other difference.
As far as the A330's are concerned, MAXab sorry it is not crap to say that it is common for A330's to want lower than A100 at 70 NM's, in fact it seems to be the norm especially if you ask for high speed. What I have noticed is that when you tell them to go 310IAS or greater to stay number one, they dive for the deck and therefore completely defeat the purpose of high speed. The only time I ever try and keep an A330 in front of a tight congo line is if I have time to tee up that they are to fly 310IAS or greater and that I want them to stay high so as to cross the gate meeting the STAR requirement and no lower ie. A130 at ORLIK, GONLO etc. This means since all other aircraft types have to meet that requirement as well they are all on a similair page as far as descent profile is concerned. Now not being a pilot I don't know what the onward ramifications of this are if they are straight in RWY12 and they are A130 at 40 odd miles but in these cases the guys agreed, did it, the sequence worked, and there wasn't any go rounds. Other option DD is to do as you said and make it a policy that 777's always go ahead of 330's when it is at all close. Its not being mean but instead just looking at the greater good, as if the 777 stays high in the good winds and fast as they do, then the rest of the sequence suffers less.
To answer the question about direct tracking that is barely any change. If I have no inbounds and I can say cleared direct TONVO/TARDI/BALUS I will whether that is a big saving or not. Firstly if we don't we often get in this part of the world another transmission asking us "can we go direct ..." even in cases where to us it looks like a straight line either way (Egyptair, Syrian and Air Arabia are the worst for this), secondly by saying direct ... it means confirming the correct readback of one less point, and finally it may only save a bee's dick of track miles but enough bees dicks and you save a substantial amount of fuel. To be perfectly honest when you call us on East as a departure you are the easy flights, that is we know we can only give you FL250 as that is the standard level we assign before giving you to Muscat, and if I have you far enough Nth of BUBIN inbound and no FUJ/RAK arrivals, I can fire off a direct instruction with barely looking at the radar. This means I can keep working on how I can get those 4 DARAX departures vertically separated in the next 3 minutes before I have to transfer them to Tehhhhhhh
ran. So basically you have to push some buttons and it feels like a waste of time. Ok.
As far as the A330's are concerned, MAXab sorry it is not crap to say that it is common for A330's to want lower than A100 at 70 NM's, in fact it seems to be the norm especially if you ask for high speed. What I have noticed is that when you tell them to go 310IAS or greater to stay number one, they dive for the deck and therefore completely defeat the purpose of high speed. The only time I ever try and keep an A330 in front of a tight congo line is if I have time to tee up that they are to fly 310IAS or greater and that I want them to stay high so as to cross the gate meeting the STAR requirement and no lower ie. A130 at ORLIK, GONLO etc. This means since all other aircraft types have to meet that requirement as well they are all on a similair page as far as descent profile is concerned. Now not being a pilot I don't know what the onward ramifications of this are if they are straight in RWY12 and they are A130 at 40 odd miles but in these cases the guys agreed, did it, the sequence worked, and there wasn't any go rounds. Other option DD is to do as you said and make it a policy that 777's always go ahead of 330's when it is at all close. Its not being mean but instead just looking at the greater good, as if the 777 stays high in the good winds and fast as they do, then the rest of the sequence suffers less.
To answer the question about direct tracking that is barely any change. If I have no inbounds and I can say cleared direct TONVO/TARDI/BALUS I will whether that is a big saving or not. Firstly if we don't we often get in this part of the world another transmission asking us "can we go direct ..." even in cases where to us it looks like a straight line either way (Egyptair, Syrian and Air Arabia are the worst for this), secondly by saying direct ... it means confirming the correct readback of one less point, and finally it may only save a bee's dick of track miles but enough bees dicks and you save a substantial amount of fuel. To be perfectly honest when you call us on East as a departure you are the easy flights, that is we know we can only give you FL250 as that is the standard level we assign before giving you to Muscat, and if I have you far enough Nth of BUBIN inbound and no FUJ/RAK arrivals, I can fire off a direct instruction with barely looking at the radar. This means I can keep working on how I can get those 4 DARAX departures vertically separated in the next 3 minutes before I have to transfer them to Tehhhhhhh
ran. So basically you have to push some buttons and it feels like a waste of time. Ok.
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AIRCAV
It says so in the SOP. "The normal method of initiating the descent is to select DES mode at the FMGS calculated TOD".
As far as rubbish in rubbish out is concerned, what rubbish can you insert?
The tracks and distances are checked and the winds uplinked and checked.
The rest is down to default speed and cost index.
As DD says "this was not an isolated incident" which would suggest that people are flying the managed profile as per SOP. Its not my train set, EK tell me how they want me to fly their aircraft an thats what I endevour to do, circumstances permitting..
Ronnie
It says so in the SOP. "The normal method of initiating the descent is to select DES mode at the FMGS calculated TOD".
As far as rubbish in rubbish out is concerned, what rubbish can you insert?
The tracks and distances are checked and the winds uplinked and checked.
The rest is down to default speed and cost index.
As DD says "this was not an isolated incident" which would suggest that people are flying the managed profile as per SOP. Its not my train set, EK tell me how they want me to fly their aircraft an thats what I endevour to do, circumstances permitting..
Ronnie
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Uplock,
I beg to disagree, you still have the same level of automation whether in OPEN Descent or Managed. Managed is a different mode of descent not a different level of automation.
Ronnie Raygun,
I know what the SOP's say, but we are also payed to be pilots, so if the box is being unrealistic we are allowed to intervene, and I think A100 at 70 miles is a tad unrealistic. Read my post carefully, I meant the +4 idle factor is part of the rubbish, coupled with ECON descent speed which the aircraft will try to fly at the lower limit if you let it, means that the managed profile is rubbish. I also said instead of taking the easy way out people should be trained to manage the aircraft energy if they don't already know how to. Any clearer???
Are you saying you will follow the donut irrespective of anything else???
As for the train set analogy, that is a cop out. We are all grown ups I hope, so play with the train set like a grown up. Know the limitations, fly conservatively, fly safe but FLY.
Enjoy the train set
I beg to disagree, you still have the same level of automation whether in OPEN Descent or Managed. Managed is a different mode of descent not a different level of automation.
Ronnie Raygun,
I know what the SOP's say, but we are also payed to be pilots, so if the box is being unrealistic we are allowed to intervene, and I think A100 at 70 miles is a tad unrealistic. Read my post carefully, I meant the +4 idle factor is part of the rubbish, coupled with ECON descent speed which the aircraft will try to fly at the lower limit if you let it, means that the managed profile is rubbish. I also said instead of taking the easy way out people should be trained to manage the aircraft energy if they don't already know how to. Any clearer???
Are you saying you will follow the donut irrespective of anything else???
As for the train set analogy, that is a cop out. We are all grown ups I hope, so play with the train set like a grown up. Know the limitations, fly conservatively, fly safe but FLY.
Enjoy the train set
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AIRCAV
Under normal circumstances we are paid to fly the companies aircraft the way the company want us to fly their aircraft as laid down in the SOP.
There was no problem with the clarity of your post, I just disagreed with some of what you were saying. No need for the sarcasm.
No I dont just follow the doughnut, If what it is giving me is safe and reliable, I take it into consideration. If not, I disregard it.
As i said before the vast majority of guys descend on the arrow as per the SOP. I dont necesserily agree with all that is written in the SOP but I try to adhere to it. Again, its not my train set.
Ronnie
Under normal circumstances we are paid to fly the companies aircraft the way the company want us to fly their aircraft as laid down in the SOP.
There was no problem with the clarity of your post, I just disagreed with some of what you were saying. No need for the sarcasm.
No I dont just follow the doughnut, If what it is giving me is safe and reliable, I take it into consideration. If not, I disregard it.
As i said before the vast majority of guys descend on the arrow as per the SOP. I dont necesserily agree with all that is written in the SOP but I try to adhere to it. Again, its not my train set.
Ronnie
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further input pleasae
In a CL601 last light ( OK 1am ) this morning, into RAK, passed ORAX at 270, we were slowed to 250, there was holding at DARAX.
This I assume was the reason for our "slower" arrival towards the RAV.
The radar headings to keep both wings in the UAE FIR.?
We crossed the coast at UAQ, at 6k, on a great radar heading, towards the IAF for RAK, but just told radar service terminated. I have no problem with this as I knew we were pointed perfectly, however my "boss", was very upsety at having been dumped like that.
Please Q1) was last night just so busy. Q2) keep these arrivals up, and point me at IAF. It works for me.
Best regards from RAK, a very efficient under-utised airport. Shame there is almost no parking bays.
This I assume was the reason for our "slower" arrival towards the RAV.
The radar headings to keep both wings in the UAE FIR.?
We crossed the coast at UAQ, at 6k, on a great radar heading, towards the IAF for RAK, but just told radar service terminated. I have no problem with this as I knew we were pointed perfectly, however my "boss", was very upsety at having been dumped like that.
Please Q1) was last night just so busy. Q2) keep these arrivals up, and point me at IAF. It works for me.
Best regards from RAK, a very efficient under-utised airport. Shame there is almost no parking bays.
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It's a sign of the times, Emirates encourages the maximum level of automation at all times which is all very well in the perfect world however pilots ability to think outside the box is becoming limited. Not our fault just the culture that exists within the airline. For the ATC guys the airbus managed descent speed can be as low as 270kt(and often the aircraft flies slower) in the past we would change that speed to a minimum of 300kts but we had a notice saying don't do that you must use managed speeds at all times( and a high percentage of people take this as gospel).
ATC have a part to play in the erratic descents as well as poor descent managment from the pilots.
ATC have a part to play in the erratic descents as well as poor descent managment from the pilots.
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Just to mention, the Airbus 330 does not descend at the same rate as the 777 or 737 or anything else in this case. The wing is very efficient and it takes more than 3-1 to get down. More like 4-1. Sometimes it may seem that the Bus is low, but in actual fact you are not. She is just trying to get rid of the speed.
Sure at EK things are way more conservative than other places, but I think you have to have flown both to understand the difference between Boeing and Bus.
Sure at EK things are way more conservative than other places, but I think you have to have flown both to understand the difference between Boeing and Bus.
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Gulfstream naviagator
Not exactly sure what went on...even though I was there last night
Coming through ORSAR, Tehran give restrictions to be at either F210, F230, F250 or F270.
This is to de-conflict you with the guys coming from the Bahrain FIR that are on the drop to F280.
The speed was to stop you running over the guys that were being streamed into Dubai and Sharjah via DESDI.
Dubai Approach, generally like the RAK arrivals north of the gate (segregation with the main traffic flow).
We have to stop you going more than about 10-12 miles north of track, as any further than that will take you back into Tehran's patch..something frowned upon.
Once we hand you off to Dubai approach, what happens next is up to them, but I'll take a stab at it.
They would have held you up at A060 because they had departures to DARAX thru MAXMO, they have to give them some climb or they won't make their requirements at DARAX.
Also they have to give a standard level at or on descent to RAK (I assume it's A060) for the hand-off.
Being nice guys, they point you pretty much at where you wish to go, and then as RAK has no radar....then radar services MUST be terminated as you are heading into terrain and you have to fly all that secret squirrel pilot stuff to avoid the hard stuff.
So to sum up, you weren't just "dumped" as I think you realise..tell your bossman to have a look at the aids utilised by each of the ATS units...RAK operate under procedural control only...with high terrain its pretty much a "one in one out" kind of place.
In answer to Q1...yes, it was damned busy all night.
Q2 I'll leave to a qualified Dubai guy/gal
Coming through ORSAR, Tehran give restrictions to be at either F210, F230, F250 or F270.
This is to de-conflict you with the guys coming from the Bahrain FIR that are on the drop to F280.
The speed was to stop you running over the guys that were being streamed into Dubai and Sharjah via DESDI.
Dubai Approach, generally like the RAK arrivals north of the gate (segregation with the main traffic flow).
We have to stop you going more than about 10-12 miles north of track, as any further than that will take you back into Tehran's patch..something frowned upon.
Once we hand you off to Dubai approach, what happens next is up to them, but I'll take a stab at it.
They would have held you up at A060 because they had departures to DARAX thru MAXMO, they have to give them some climb or they won't make their requirements at DARAX.
Also they have to give a standard level at or on descent to RAK (I assume it's A060) for the hand-off.
Being nice guys, they point you pretty much at where you wish to go, and then as RAK has no radar....then radar services MUST be terminated as you are heading into terrain and you have to fly all that secret squirrel pilot stuff to avoid the hard stuff.
So to sum up, you weren't just "dumped" as I think you realise..tell your bossman to have a look at the aids utilised by each of the ATS units...RAK operate under procedural control only...with high terrain its pretty much a "one in one out" kind of place.
In answer to Q1...yes, it was damned busy all night.
Q2 I'll leave to a qualified Dubai guy/gal
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Standard Dubai Arrival through Desdi from Iran:
UAE Centre 'EK ***, turn right heading 270, descend to FL160 and slow to minimum clean for sequencing.'
Hand off to Dubai.....
Dubai ' EK ***, cleared direct Umali, descend 2000', accelerate to light speed.'
There is no excuse for rubbish energy control in the descent just as there is no excuse for rubbish sequencing and coordination. Until everyone gets their own houses in order the situation will not improve.
UAE Centre 'EK ***, turn right heading 270, descend to FL160 and slow to minimum clean for sequencing.'
Hand off to Dubai.....
Dubai ' EK ***, cleared direct Umali, descend 2000', accelerate to light speed.'
There is no excuse for rubbish energy control in the descent just as there is no excuse for rubbish sequencing and coordination. Until everyone gets their own houses in order the situation will not improve.
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Schnowzer
It's been done to death many times....but I think it needs explaining yet again.
UAE centre have absolutely no say in the spacing that has to be given through DESDI and BUBIN, that is Dubai's call. If they say 25 miles and 230 knots by the gate, we are compelled to do it.
With some measure of disgust I might add, especially when they now have their two runways in use, but require exactly the same spacing and the restrictions on UAE control have actually been EXTENDED for an hour.
It used to be from 9.30pm local til 2.30am that they required (not requested) 20nm between arrivals through all gates. Now with their 2nd runway in use, the restrictions go from 9pm til 3am...if you can work that out, please give me a call, because i just can't get my head around it.
So, to sum up, Dubai call the ball, it's up to the individual controller to decide whether to vector or hold you. Speaking as a dumb farm boy, if i have to give more than HDG 180 ex ORSAR, I'll stick you in the hold.
When you get onto dubai's frequency, naturally there is plenty of space between you and the guy in front, so invariably they cancel speed and track direct, thereby wasting all the time and effort on the other side of the gate.
As for whether or not it will improve...where there is life, there's hope.
UAE centre have absolutely no say in the spacing that has to be given through DESDI and BUBIN, that is Dubai's call. If they say 25 miles and 230 knots by the gate, we are compelled to do it.
With some measure of disgust I might add, especially when they now have their two runways in use, but require exactly the same spacing and the restrictions on UAE control have actually been EXTENDED for an hour.
It used to be from 9.30pm local til 2.30am that they required (not requested) 20nm between arrivals through all gates. Now with their 2nd runway in use, the restrictions go from 9pm til 3am...if you can work that out, please give me a call, because i just can't get my head around it.
So, to sum up, Dubai call the ball, it's up to the individual controller to decide whether to vector or hold you. Speaking as a dumb farm boy, if i have to give more than HDG 180 ex ORSAR, I'll stick you in the hold.
When you get onto dubai's frequency, naturally there is plenty of space between you and the guy in front, so invariably they cancel speed and track direct, thereby wasting all the time and effort on the other side of the gate.
As for whether or not it will improve...where there is life, there's hope.
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Controllers and Pilots singing off the same song sheet.
To give you controllers a better idea of the way we drivers (should) think, consider this:
For planning purposes; below FL200
a) for the A330: 3x FL plus 1 mile for every 10 knots above 170
b) for 777: 3x FL plus 1 mile for every 10 knots above 190
Using GS instead of TAS gives you some credit for wind; to make it more accurate try adding 1-2 miles for 10 knots tailwind @ FL200
Not perfect, but it should give you a ballpark figure.
Without any doubt, the A330 is harder to decelerate - with flaps in or out -and Emirates management have drilled a scare of unstabilised approaches into crews. At the same time, 777 speedbrakes are more efficient than those on the A330, which makes A330 crews even more cautious.
In any case, putting an A330 on the GS with 170 knots (or 180 with more flaps/drag) and a 777 with 180 should keep drivers out of trouble.
And I couldn't care less about the "my airplane is better than yours" idiocy or whether this is to "superior airfoil design" on the A330, or "superior handling qualities" on the 777. We are unlikely to change the way our particular airplanes behave and we might as well get used to it.
Another part of the problem could be varying descent speeds.
It used to be 300 (previously 310) knots on the A330 and 310 knots on the 777. As management tries to reduce fuel consumption, we descent with cost indices that can drop descent speeds down to 270 knots, or below. (If this continues, some guys may well have to accelerate to 250 KIAS when descending below 10,000.
) The next guy says "hell, stuff this" and descends at 310 as before.
At one stage, I tried to get management interested in using a standard descend speed of let's say 290 knots (for the sake of fuel economy) for all fleets.
That would have made us more predictable for ATC who would no longer have to increase the speed of slow traffic (means more fuel burn) or reduce the speed of the faster traffic (means more fuel burn, since they extended the cruise portion beyond the point where they could have descended at a lower speed), but management never got the picture and the proposal must have gone straight to file 13, because I never even got an acknowledgement.
Interesting to note that you controllers put altitude into the equation and consider the fact that 300 KIAS @ FL200 moves us a lot faster across your screen than 300 KIAS at FL100. It must be literally part of the way each of us sees the picture and applies mental arithmetic. You see a blip moving across the screen at the same 300 knots, but different altitudes and rates; while we pilots work on FL X 3 plus whatever to figure out required track miles.
Great talking to you, gents.
For planning purposes; below FL200
a) for the A330: 3x FL plus 1 mile for every 10 knots above 170
b) for 777: 3x FL plus 1 mile for every 10 knots above 190
Using GS instead of TAS gives you some credit for wind; to make it more accurate try adding 1-2 miles for 10 knots tailwind @ FL200
Not perfect, but it should give you a ballpark figure.
Without any doubt, the A330 is harder to decelerate - with flaps in or out -and Emirates management have drilled a scare of unstabilised approaches into crews. At the same time, 777 speedbrakes are more efficient than those on the A330, which makes A330 crews even more cautious.
In any case, putting an A330 on the GS with 170 knots (or 180 with more flaps/drag) and a 777 with 180 should keep drivers out of trouble.
And I couldn't care less about the "my airplane is better than yours" idiocy or whether this is to "superior airfoil design" on the A330, or "superior handling qualities" on the 777. We are unlikely to change the way our particular airplanes behave and we might as well get used to it.
Another part of the problem could be varying descent speeds.
It used to be 300 (previously 310) knots on the A330 and 310 knots on the 777. As management tries to reduce fuel consumption, we descent with cost indices that can drop descent speeds down to 270 knots, or below. (If this continues, some guys may well have to accelerate to 250 KIAS when descending below 10,000.
) The next guy says "hell, stuff this" and descends at 310 as before.At one stage, I tried to get management interested in using a standard descend speed of let's say 290 knots (for the sake of fuel economy) for all fleets.
That would have made us more predictable for ATC who would no longer have to increase the speed of slow traffic (means more fuel burn) or reduce the speed of the faster traffic (means more fuel burn, since they extended the cruise portion beyond the point where they could have descended at a lower speed), but management never got the picture and the proposal must have gone straight to file 13, because I never even got an acknowledgement.
Interesting to note that you controllers put altitude into the equation and consider the fact that 300 KIAS @ FL200 moves us a lot faster across your screen than 300 KIAS at FL100. It must be literally part of the way each of us sees the picture and applies mental arithmetic. You see a blip moving across the screen at the same 300 knots, but different altitudes and rates; while we pilots work on FL X 3 plus whatever to figure out required track miles.
Great talking to you, gents.
Last edited by Eldin; 4th Jul 2007 at 04:33. Reason: typo
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Like I said profile descents with specific altitude and airspeed gates.."insert and fly" will it work in the UAE??? or is the airspace too "complex"??
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Diving Duck,
Let me start by saying this is not personal, it is directed to the GCAA.
No it doesn't! It needs fixing!
For goodness sake, Dubai is in the UAE. Its like saying that in the UK, they can't coordinate traffic in Hampshire!
I had heard that the Danish one had been moved sideways so now must be a good time to get it right. Dubai is the biggest airport in the Middle East and UAE Centre is the National Air Traffic Control Centre for......Dubai. Cut the political crap and provide a Service. Dubai and the UAE need to get together to provide the Service their customers, the aircraft require.
As the penguins say in Madagascar 'I don't want reports, I want results!'
Let me start by saying this is not personal, it is directed to the GCAA.
It's been done to death many times....but I think it needs explaining yet again.
For goodness sake, Dubai is in the UAE. Its like saying that in the UK, they can't coordinate traffic in Hampshire!
I had heard that the Danish one had been moved sideways so now must be a good time to get it right. Dubai is the biggest airport in the Middle East and UAE Centre is the National Air Traffic Control Centre for......Dubai. Cut the political crap and provide a Service. Dubai and the UAE need to get together to provide the Service their customers, the aircraft require.
As the penguins say in Madagascar 'I don't want reports, I want results!'