DXB runway change at rush hour!
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4 Holer Poler
I want to take issue with what you said in your post. OK
Firstly you say "it wasn't even busy". How do you know? Do you think that R/T is the be all and end all of our job. He may have had an airworker or air test flight wanting to do something strange and he was up to his eyeballs with the military and all units around him trying to negotiate a clearance for this guy. He may have had strips piling up for pending flights that he had to assess before putting in his board. He may have been trying to help out one of his fellow controllers while doing his own job due to short staffing. There are a million reasons a controller can be busy and sound quiet on the R/T.The radio was quiet; it was 3 in the morning with only three a/c in the hold at DESDI; these were arrivals, directed to the hold.
Secondly you say it was just an observation but it was clearly a dig at us controllers in the UAE No, I wasn't generalizing, keep your hair on. The guy was plain rude - if he didn't want to thumb-suck an EAT then he should say "undetermined. Pilots ask for an EAT because they need to plan ahead., when you said that you wouldn't hear a request for an EAT go unanswered at some other major airports. I just want to point out that at those airports they will have proper flow that tells them not only the order of the sequence but also the landing time of each aircraft. We have neither. The reason a request (3 in the space of as many minutes)may go unanswered is because if we do make an asse pluck and it turns out to be wrong, which it will be 90% of the time, we will cop it from the pilot and if it goes further from our superiors. But again I ask you seriously what should we do. ? We do the best job we can with the equipment and manpower available to us. Agreed. The Gulf as a whole is at least 100 controllers short (to put that in perspective there is roughly 300 controller of all shapes and varieties in the Gulf so that means we are 25% short), and it will only get worse as the dollar depreciates further and the traffic continues to climb. We keep the aircraft apart, and try to provide as best service as we can to our customers, you the pilots. There are some things though that you may expect in other better resourced parts of the world, that sadly you cannot expect here. So when you go into the hold and fuel is an issue, rather than asking me for an EAT, the most useful piece of information for me will be a latest divert time and alternate.You would understand what I'm talking about. Most wouldn't & the arrogant would ask me for my intentions. Now I'm generalizing.
I should have added to the things that can be done to help us, and probably the most important of all,
6. Carry enough fuel to hold for at least 30 minutes and then some, if flying into Dubai or Sharjah between 10.30pm and 2.30am. The way the traffic is going it may also be an idea to expect holding between 3.30am and 5.30am from Asia inbound to Dubai from the East, and between 6.00am and 7.00am from the West.Good advice. I'm not beating up on controllers & certainly didn't intend to flame the DXB controllers as a group. This guy was just out-of-line. 4HP
Firstly you say "it wasn't even busy". How do you know? Do you think that R/T is the be all and end all of our job. He may have had an airworker or air test flight wanting to do something strange and he was up to his eyeballs with the military and all units around him trying to negotiate a clearance for this guy. He may have had strips piling up for pending flights that he had to assess before putting in his board. He may have been trying to help out one of his fellow controllers while doing his own job due to short staffing. There are a million reasons a controller can be busy and sound quiet on the R/T.The radio was quiet; it was 3 in the morning with only three a/c in the hold at DESDI; these were arrivals, directed to the hold.
Secondly you say it was just an observation but it was clearly a dig at us controllers in the UAE No, I wasn't generalizing, keep your hair on. The guy was plain rude - if he didn't want to thumb-suck an EAT then he should say "undetermined. Pilots ask for an EAT because they need to plan ahead., when you said that you wouldn't hear a request for an EAT go unanswered at some other major airports. I just want to point out that at those airports they will have proper flow that tells them not only the order of the sequence but also the landing time of each aircraft. We have neither. The reason a request (3 in the space of as many minutes)may go unanswered is because if we do make an asse pluck and it turns out to be wrong, which it will be 90% of the time, we will cop it from the pilot and if it goes further from our superiors. But again I ask you seriously what should we do. ? We do the best job we can with the equipment and manpower available to us. Agreed. The Gulf as a whole is at least 100 controllers short (to put that in perspective there is roughly 300 controller of all shapes and varieties in the Gulf so that means we are 25% short), and it will only get worse as the dollar depreciates further and the traffic continues to climb. We keep the aircraft apart, and try to provide as best service as we can to our customers, you the pilots. There are some things though that you may expect in other better resourced parts of the world, that sadly you cannot expect here. So when you go into the hold and fuel is an issue, rather than asking me for an EAT, the most useful piece of information for me will be a latest divert time and alternate.You would understand what I'm talking about. Most wouldn't & the arrogant would ask me for my intentions. Now I'm generalizing.
I should have added to the things that can be done to help us, and probably the most important of all,
6. Carry enough fuel to hold for at least 30 minutes and then some, if flying into Dubai or Sharjah between 10.30pm and 2.30am. The way the traffic is going it may also be an idea to expect holding between 3.30am and 5.30am from Asia inbound to Dubai from the East, and between 6.00am and 7.00am from the West.Good advice. I'm not beating up on controllers & certainly didn't intend to flame the DXB controllers as a group. This guy was just out-of-line. 4HP
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AirNoServicesAustralia,
don't bother man those guys think they are perfect as if they never made a mistake and they will never do any.
they think their job is the best. Another word they are loosers.
keep discovering
don't bother man those guys think they are perfect as if they never made a mistake and they will never do any.
they think their job is the best. Another word they are loosers.
keep discovering
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Guys if this thread is going to degenerate into a flame war between pilots & controllers then I'm going to close it down. That serves no purpose.
4HP
4HP
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I hope this doesn't deteriorate as I think it helps all of us understand each others jobs a bit better. Some will see this as hot air but they don't have to read it if they don't want to.
4HP you originally said
and then said
In most western busy airports and the related control centres, they have the staff to have dedicated planners and dedicated executive controllers. We don't, therefore we have to fill both roles, meaning we not only talk to and control aircraft, but also are on the phone to Dubai App negotiating spacing etc. We also are busy trying to plan our traffic and the levels they want and see if we can accomodate. We also are coordinating with all the surrounding FIR's (Tehran is a nightmare, but we have to persist taking up time that could be spent working out EAT's). So when you say the radio is quiet that does not mean we are not busy. Also at 3am we are generally very busy as that is one of our busiest times with a rush of departures from Qatar crossing with all the Dubai and Abu Dhabi departures and converging with all our overflyers along with having to deal with the departure rush out of Dubai and Sharjah for traffic going East. Bottom line is the guys probably was not quiet, even though the radio sounded like it.
Maybe a trip down to Abu Dhabi to visit the ACC would be of value for everyone, preferably between 1030 and 1230 on a nightshift, so hopefully you might see what we see and the cluster f**k that ensues each night here. It may then help explain why the same guy that handled that, may be a bit rude later on at 3am, and not respond to the request for EAT's as he should.
Sorry if I seemed overly defensive but we all get truly sick of hearing how Heathrow does it this way and Gatwick does it that way, and why can't we be like them. We have 6 or 7 guys on a shift handling about 500 movements a shift, with no flow system to help us, late ugly transfers from Tehran, and a building site for a major airport, with one runway and 15% annual growth in traffic still with an archaic radar system. Next time you are in the UK and want to know why things go smoothly there ask the controller how many controllers are on his shift in relation to the number of movements handled. Ask him what it would be like there if there weren't slot times for departures and arrivals, and what it would be like if you had no control over the aircraft until 100NM's from the airport, and if you need to change something with that neigbouring FIR you have to spend 10 minutes with the phone ringing only for the cleaner to answer it. Ask him if he would like to control all the airlines that have been banned from operating in Europe, the ones that can't speak English, don't know what Indicated Air Speed is, and who descend to the heading that you give them. Ask him how he would like those aircraft in the middle of a 15 aircraft sequence.
4HP you originally said
And it wasn't even busy.
The radio was quiet; it was 3 in the morning with only three a/c in the hold at DESDI; these were arrivals, directed to the hold.
Maybe a trip down to Abu Dhabi to visit the ACC would be of value for everyone, preferably between 1030 and 1230 on a nightshift, so hopefully you might see what we see and the cluster f**k that ensues each night here. It may then help explain why the same guy that handled that, may be a bit rude later on at 3am, and not respond to the request for EAT's as he should.
Sorry if I seemed overly defensive but we all get truly sick of hearing how Heathrow does it this way and Gatwick does it that way, and why can't we be like them. We have 6 or 7 guys on a shift handling about 500 movements a shift, with no flow system to help us, late ugly transfers from Tehran, and a building site for a major airport, with one runway and 15% annual growth in traffic still with an archaic radar system. Next time you are in the UK and want to know why things go smoothly there ask the controller how many controllers are on his shift in relation to the number of movements handled. Ask him what it would be like there if there weren't slot times for departures and arrivals, and what it would be like if you had no control over the aircraft until 100NM's from the airport, and if you need to change something with that neigbouring FIR you have to spend 10 minutes with the phone ringing only for the cleaner to answer it. Ask him if he would like to control all the airlines that have been banned from operating in Europe, the ones that can't speak English, don't know what Indicated Air Speed is, and who descend to the heading that you give them. Ask him how he would like those aircraft in the middle of a 15 aircraft sequence.
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I don't think this thread is a war between pilots and controllers. The underlying tone of this whole thing is that the entire Dubai airport and all its associated services (EK included) are managed by rank amateurs. Everybody and his dog is trying to re-invent the wheel at this place. I hear people speak of hub-and-spoke, open skies, free flight, yap yap yap etc. All fare and well but DO NOT bleat about fuel burn, severe speed restrictions, huge taxi times, snaking emigration lines and what have you when the cause for this monumental 
-up lies at the door of Emirates Airlines (the owners) itself.
If you want an "Open Skies Policy" make sure you have an "Open Wallet Policy" in place to cover for the fuel loss on your one hour taxi to the holding point, or your time spent flying around your own arse only to divert to RAK.
I am amazed at times how Dubai and her rulers trumpet to world the progress they have made in 30 odd years (and they have), but then you look at how it manages its airport and I can't help but think that they try to run an Olympic 400m hurdles race when the diapers only came off yesterday. Vision is one thing but blind ambition is precisely what it is, blind.
-up lies at the door of Emirates Airlines (the owners) itself. If you want an "Open Skies Policy" make sure you have an "Open Wallet Policy" in place to cover for the fuel loss on your one hour taxi to the holding point, or your time spent flying around your own arse only to divert to RAK.
I am amazed at times how Dubai and her rulers trumpet to world the progress they have made in 30 odd years (and they have), but then you look at how it manages its airport and I can't help but think that they try to run an Olympic 400m hurdles race when the diapers only came off yesterday. Vision is one thing but blind ambition is precisely what it is, blind.
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Sadly, Blue Skye is distressingly close to the mark with this comments, as is Seaman Staynes.
NASA, you continue to take personally criticism of the sadly inadequate system you work in.
Fact: Heathrow/Gatwick do it better.
Fact: As you say, this is because they have a proper SYSTEM in place.
Fact: Particularly during the midnight rush hours, Dubai is getting to be every bit as busy as Heathrow and Gatwick.
Fact: The Dubai/Abu Dhabi ATC SYSTEM, (not the individual controllers), isn’t coping as well with this high volume of traffic. Your system needs fixing, and the men controlling the purse strings need to be convinced they have to spend some money.
I’m not trying to be an arse licking, goodie two shoes company man in trying to save fuel in the descent. I’m wingeing out of pure self-interest, for yet another fact is that it’s not always possible to carry "LOTS" of extra fuel when inbound to Dubai, and if put into the hold, a captain has pick a minimum fuel figure with which to divert, (or if he has ‘committed’ to Dubai, at which he has to say “I need to start my approach right NOW!”).
Another fact is that with Dubai’s remote holding patterns and the “magical mystery tours” at who knows what speed that we are forced to take after leaving the hold, it’s almost impossible to guess how much fuel you’re going to burn between leaving the hold and touchdown.
...and from an “end user’s” point of view, THAT’S what’s wrong with the present system.
NASA, you continue to take personally criticism of the sadly inadequate system you work in.
Fact: Heathrow/Gatwick do it better.
Fact: As you say, this is because they have a proper SYSTEM in place.
Fact: Particularly during the midnight rush hours, Dubai is getting to be every bit as busy as Heathrow and Gatwick.
Fact: The Dubai/Abu Dhabi ATC SYSTEM, (not the individual controllers), isn’t coping as well with this high volume of traffic. Your system needs fixing, and the men controlling the purse strings need to be convinced they have to spend some money.
I’m not trying to be an arse licking, goodie two shoes company man in trying to save fuel in the descent. I’m wingeing out of pure self-interest, for yet another fact is that it’s not always possible to carry "LOTS" of extra fuel when inbound to Dubai, and if put into the hold, a captain has pick a minimum fuel figure with which to divert, (or if he has ‘committed’ to Dubai, at which he has to say “I need to start my approach right NOW!”).
Another fact is that with Dubai’s remote holding patterns and the “magical mystery tours” at who knows what speed that we are forced to take after leaving the hold, it’s almost impossible to guess how much fuel you’re going to burn between leaving the hold and touchdown.
...and from an “end user’s” point of view, THAT’S what’s wrong with the present system.
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Fact: The Dubai/Abu Dhabi ATC SYSTEM, (not the individual controllers), isn’t coping as well with this high volume of traffic. Your system needs fixing, and the men controlling the purse strings need to be convinced they have to spend some money.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
The "NEW" Abu Dhabi radar display system which started operation during the end of last year (2006), was ordered in 1994!!!! 12 years after the spec's was accepted!!
If you compare it to the eurocat 2000 system (replaced by the Eurocat X in 2004) which was used us SA from 1996 to 2003, ..... ??? there is no comparisson. It is planely sh...t.
Wiley, you are 100% correct.
The UAE does not even have an integrated system between the 6 major airports.(OMAA,OMDB,OMSJ,OMRK,OMFJ,OMAL) The money is here(or so the say), but each airport/ATC centre has a different operating system, not compatable with the other. So what do you expect???
I think the controllers are doing their best with whatever is available to them to handle the amount of traffic on a daily basis....not forgetting the rules applicable to this region.(which are plenty)
So, tell this to the authorities with the $$$$ in hand!!!
Stop stalling on contracts!
Stop accepting the cheapest tender! (AUH new DVOR system???)
Upgrade ATC systems at least every 4 to 5 years to keep up with technology!
Link the whole Gulf area into one/same radar operating system!
RE
The "NEW" Abu Dhabi radar display system which started operation during the end of last year (2006), was ordered in 1994!!!! 12 years after the spec's was accepted!!
If you compare it to the eurocat 2000 system (replaced by the Eurocat X in 2004) which was used us SA from 1996 to 2003, ..... ??? there is no comparisson. It is planely sh...t.
Wiley, you are 100% correct.
The UAE does not even have an integrated system between the 6 major airports.(OMAA,OMDB,OMSJ,OMRK,OMFJ,OMAL) The money is here(or so the say), but each airport/ATC centre has a different operating system, not compatable with the other. So what do you expect???I think the controllers are doing their best with whatever is available to them to handle the amount of traffic on a daily basis....not forgetting the rules applicable to this region.(which are plenty)
So, tell this to the authorities with the $$$$ in hand!!!
Stop stalling on contracts!
Stop accepting the cheapest tender! (AUH new DVOR system???)
Upgrade ATC systems at least every 4 to 5 years to keep up with technology!
Link the whole Gulf area into one/same radar operating system!
RE
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According to all the latest international journals (Flight International and the like) ,National and International press releases and of course Middle East Business periodicals....THE UAE WILL BE THE HUB OF THE WORLD FOR AVIATION.
More realistically will be the hub for all the air safety investigators in the world to accumulate when two bang together...that is the long and the short of it.
The agenda we all have to work under....
Flight Deck: Flown till they can fly no more.
Cabin Crew: Used and abused.
Engineers: Keep them flying or we will send you home.
Support Staff: Take the abuse, its part of your job.
ATC: International conventions and safety standards, when practicable
Management and the Regulators: Yes we agree to all the above.
More realistically will be the hub for all the air safety investigators in the world to accumulate when two bang together...that is the long and the short of it.
The agenda we all have to work under....
Flight Deck: Flown till they can fly no more.
Cabin Crew: Used and abused.
Engineers: Keep them flying or we will send you home.
Support Staff: Take the abuse, its part of your job.
ATC: International conventions and safety standards, when practicable
Management and the Regulators: Yes we agree to all the above.
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Hey plt330....
This is the typical answer you expect from a local driver!!
"If you are not happy...leave"
Sorry pal, wrong answer. Talk to your friends and raise the standards if you want to compete with the rest of the world!!
It is guys like you who always complain on frequency. Improve the facility to enable ATC to provide you with a beter service and there will be less complaints.
Oh, by the way.....I am
Enough is enough!!
This is the typical answer you expect from a local driver!!
"If you are not happy...leave"
Sorry pal, wrong answer. Talk to your friends and raise the standards if you want to compete with the rest of the world!!
It is guys like you who always complain on frequency. Improve the facility to enable ATC to provide you with a beter service and there will be less complaints.
Oh, by the way.....I am
Enough is enough!!
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PLt 330..
Ya right, walk away from the problem rather than admit your shortcomings and FIX IT!!
This is a great thread as far as I am concerned. Good input from controllers especially. Without question there are lots of improvememnts needed here. As was mentioned earlier, it might take a "bang" in the sky before the big boys here decide to get their collective ****e together and spend the money on facilities and people.
Jinglie'd
Ya right, walk away from the problem rather than admit your shortcomings and FIX IT!!
This is a great thread as far as I am concerned. Good input from controllers especially. Without question there are lots of improvememnts needed here. As was mentioned earlier, it might take a "bang" in the sky before the big boys here decide to get their collective ****e together and spend the money on facilities and people.
Jinglie'd
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Nothing will ever be done about anything here!!
Minimum expenditure to keep things on the move for today. THAT is it. Tight as ducks arseholes and lots of PR PIFF PAFF!!!!
A bang in the sky!! SO WHAT nothing will be done even then!!! its already factored into dollars and cents!!
It will hurt the airline for a while but they will move on and it will be CHAOS as usual!! With a bit of finger pointing and a handful of sackings!!
Then the slow gradual decline to Gulf Air levels will begin!!
The writing is on the wall!!
I am relatively happy here but you must have an exit strategy when the inevitable slow decline accelerates!!
Talking of tight as ducks arseholes no mention of education allowances or Utilities allowance. No increases then!!
Minimum expenditure to keep things on the move for today. THAT is it. Tight as ducks arseholes and lots of PR PIFF PAFF!!!!
A bang in the sky!! SO WHAT nothing will be done even then!!! its already factored into dollars and cents!!
It will hurt the airline for a while but they will move on and it will be CHAOS as usual!! With a bit of finger pointing and a handful of sackings!!
Then the slow gradual decline to Gulf Air levels will begin!!
The writing is on the wall!!
I am relatively happy here but you must have an exit strategy when the inevitable slow decline accelerates!!
Talking of tight as ducks arseholes no mention of education allowances or Utilities allowance. No increases then!!
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radioexcel ,
I say again
LEAVE !
jinglied,
totally agree with what you said but you know what this is the worng place to bitch..
If you are really concern why don’t you write to the GCAA or the company about it and don’t give me the excuse that everyone is giving that no one will listen to you. If you guys write as much to the company and the GCAA about your worries as much as you write here I think or I should say I’m sure this company would have lesser problems.
But what really pisses me off is when someone has a strong case and instead of complaining to the right people he comes here and bitch and say bad things about emirates and Dubai
… My friend even where you come from is not perfect and I agree with a lot of people that emirates used to be better and there are a lot of things and areas could have been done better but I say again without your inputs to the right people nothing will change. There are many guys here say why should I be bothered I’m only here for 3 or 4 max 5 and then I will leave.
That's why we are going down !!
Cheers
Keep Discovering
I say again
LEAVE !
jinglied,
totally agree with what you said but you know what this is the worng place to bitch..
If you are really concern why don’t you write to the GCAA or the company about it and don’t give me the excuse that everyone is giving that no one will listen to you. If you guys write as much to the company and the GCAA about your worries as much as you write here I think or I should say I’m sure this company would have lesser problems.
But what really pisses me off is when someone has a strong case and instead of complaining to the right people he comes here and bitch and say bad things about emirates and Dubai
… My friend even where you come from is not perfect and I agree with a lot of people that emirates used to be better and there are a lot of things and areas could have been done better but I say again without your inputs to the right people nothing will change. There are many guys here say why should I be bothered I’m only here for 3 or 4 max 5 and then I will leave.
That's why we are going down !!
Cheers
Keep Discovering
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plt330, you really do know less than I thought you did if you really think writing to the GCAA will help. Believe me I have written and spoken to people who could and should change things until I am blue in the face, and nothing is done. Nothing is done until god forbid the worst happens as Foxy said, and then something will be done. Until then everyones head remains firmly buried in the sand. Lucky for them there is a lot of sand. The change needed here requires huge money to be spent, and that would reduce the almighty profits, and that just isn't going to happen.
So, we will continue to be not as good as Heathrow etc. and we will all just have to do our best, and hope our best proves to be good enough.
So, we will continue to be not as good as Heathrow etc. and we will all just have to do our best, and hope our best proves to be good enough.
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Give a man a tool, and he can perform his duties. Give him s....t and he keeps looking for the tool.
PLT330, being here in the gulf for more that 6 years, I have decided that irrespective what you do or say, it is farting against thunder!!)
Your advice is taken!!!! thank you
This forum as I see it, is supposed to be a bitching/help/informative forum??? This is how this thread originally started by "puff m'call". So what are you actually saying???
Everyone reading PPrune needs to find out what is going on in the aviation industry?? or am I wrong??
All I am trying to say is that the people in authority of this country should speak to their colleagues in authority in the next emirate, and by chance, they could reach the same goal and improve the system so that you MR PLT330 and I can and will able to serve the general public with the service they expect to get in the UAE.
As ANSA said, irrespective of what we(the ATC's here in the Gulf) write or say, NOTHING is taken seriously and nothing will be done. BUT when the big boys talk(that is now you and our flying partners), then somehing will be done.
RE
PLT330, being here in the gulf for more that 6 years, I have decided that irrespective what you do or say, it is farting against thunder!!
)Your advice is taken!!!! thank you
This forum as I see it, is supposed to be a bitching/help/informative forum??? This is how this thread originally started by "puff m'call". So what are you actually saying???
Everyone reading PPrune needs to find out what is going on in the aviation industry?? or am I wrong??
All I am trying to say is that the people in authority of this country should speak to their colleagues in authority in the next emirate, and by chance, they could reach the same goal and improve the system so that you MR PLT330 and I can and will able to serve the general public with the service they expect to get in the UAE.
As ANSA said, irrespective of what we(the ATC's here in the Gulf) write or say, NOTHING is taken seriously and nothing will be done. BUT when the big boys talk(that is now you and our flying partners), then somehing will be done.
RE
