DXB runway change at rush hour!
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DXB runway change at rush hour!
Well done to DXB ATC 
Decided to change runway direction last night right at the start of rush hour, great timing..............NOT.
Every man and his dog holding at DESDI and ATC saying " time in the hold undetermined"
Would it not have been better at take the 5kts tailwind on 30R than to change at one of the most busy time?
Decided to change runway direction last night right at the start of rush hour, great timing..............NOT.Every man and his dog holding at DESDI and ATC saying " time in the hold undetermined"
Would it not have been better at take the 5kts tailwind on 30R than to change at one of the most busy time?
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not trying to defend ATC casue i have my frustrations to, as i am sure the ATC boys have theirs about us also.
But...how many times have you landed with excess tailwind component above 10KTS in Dubai??? How many times have u reported 20-30kts tail at 1000ft??? To me I understand your frustration but would rather have ATC trying then leaving a runway that is not favourable.
But...how many times have you landed with excess tailwind component above 10KTS in Dubai??? How many times have u reported 20-30kts tail at 1000ft??? To me I understand your frustration but would rather have ATC trying then leaving a runway that is not favourable.
I guess it's human nature...
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A close-in hold with a minimum holding height of around 7,000' (a la Lambourne at Heathrow) that serves both runways with approx 20 NM of vectoring ex the hold to touchdown* (*translation = constant descent to touchdown) would minimise the problem of a runway change in busy periods (and a lot of other problems too!).
There's even an aid available for such a hold at DXB - the Sharjah VOR.
Dubai's getting close to being as busy as Heathrow every night during the midnight arrivals rush. If the close-in hold works so well and seamlessly for Heathrow, (arguably the best ATC in the world), why wouldn't it work for Dubai?
There's even an aid available for such a hold at DXB - the Sharjah VOR.
Dubai's getting close to being as busy as Heathrow every night during the midnight arrivals rush. If the close-in hold works so well and seamlessly for Heathrow, (arguably the best ATC in the world), why wouldn't it work for Dubai?
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Wiley..
"Heathrow argueably the best ATC in the world"..
I'd argue Chicago, maybe Schipol (haven't been to Schipol in quite some time though).
Having said that, yes there's probably a better way to manage the busy periods at Dubai. The second runway would help.
Jinglie'd
"Heathrow argueably the best ATC in the world"..
I'd argue Chicago, maybe Schipol (haven't been to Schipol in quite some time though).
Having said that, yes there's probably a better way to manage the busy periods at Dubai. The second runway would help.
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20nm from LAM to LHR? 
In a straight line maybe but not the line I ever get to fly.
Still, agree with the comments about closer holds in Dubai. No doubt the controllers would like to see that as well but airspace utilisation is a political animal I'm afraid.
In a straight line maybe but not the line I ever get to fly. Still, agree with the comments about closer holds in Dubai. No doubt the controllers would like to see that as well but airspace utilisation is a political animal I'm afraid.
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Oops... that '2' should have been a '3', as in "30 NM". Dyslexic fingers.
Let's not argue about my 'arguably'... whether the best is Heathrow, Shiphol, O'Hare or Kalamazoo, the fact remains that the current holds for Dubai are a disaster, and the marathon cross country vectoring ex the holds, all too often at speeds that demand flap extension, incredibly wasteful in unnecessary fuel burn.
Hands up anyone who hasn't been asked for 160 knots with 15 or 20 miles to run, and sometimes in level flight? (I know the ATCOs do their best to achieve the very do-able 180 to 10, 160 to 4, but it doesn't always work when things start to go pear shaped.)
In a 773 close to MLW, 160 knots involves extending the gear, which is damn near the poor man's fuel jettison switch.
Let's not argue about my 'arguably'... whether the best is Heathrow, Shiphol, O'Hare or Kalamazoo, the fact remains that the current holds for Dubai are a disaster, and the marathon cross country vectoring ex the holds, all too often at speeds that demand flap extension, incredibly wasteful in unnecessary fuel burn.
Hands up anyone who hasn't been asked for 160 knots with 15 or 20 miles to run, and sometimes in level flight? (I know the ATCOs do their best to achieve the very do-able 180 to 10, 160 to 4, but it doesn't always work when things start to go pear shaped.)
In a 773 close to MLW, 160 knots involves extending the gear, which is damn near the poor man's fuel jettison switch.
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all too often at speeds that demand flap extension, incredibly wasteful in unnecessary fuel burn.
Hands up anyone who hasn't been asked for 160 knots with 15 or 20 miles to run, and sometimes in level flight? (I know the ATCOs do their best to achieve the very do-able 180 to 10, 160 to 4, but it doesn't always work when things start to go pear shaped.)
In a 773 close to MLW, 160 knots involves extending the gear, which is damn near the poor man's fuel jettison switch.
Hands up anyone who hasn't been asked for 160 knots with 15 or 20 miles to run, and sometimes in level flight? (I know the ATCOs do their best to achieve the very do-able 180 to 10, 160 to 4, but it doesn't always work when things start to go pear shaped.)
In a 773 close to MLW, 160 knots involves extending the gear, which is damn near the poor man's fuel jettison switch.
Agree completely Wiley. Have you seen this thread?
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Here's a novel thought. Stop arriving all at once and there will be less delays, less vectoring to fit all in, less holding and less fuel burn. I.E. Departure slots and inbound flow control. Sure I've heard about this concept before but just can not put my finger on it.
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Wiley and Jingilied....
"Heathrow arguably the best ATC in the world"
'I'd argue Chicago, maybe Schipol (haven't been to Schipol in quite some time though).'
Pfffft!
Lets see how they would go in the middle of holding and sequencing at the busiest time of the night with 2 American P3's operating 'tactical due regard' (i.e. we will do what we want, when we want and how we want) right in the middle of your traffic at FL145, effectively blocking the most critical levels in the most critical areas of the arrival segments. (especially as Emirates needs to be at A100 at 120 DME 
)
Add to this adjacent sectors that we have no dialogue with that feed 3/4's of your traffic, antiquated equipment, disgusting traffic management procedures (i.e none) and no television in the rest room!!!!
A typical daily scenario I might add.
'I'd argue Chicago, maybe Schipol (haven't been to Schipol in quite some time though).'
Pfffft!
Lets see how they would go in the middle of holding and sequencing at the busiest time of the night with 2 American P3's operating 'tactical due regard' (i.e. we will do what we want, when we want and how we want) right in the middle of your traffic at FL145, effectively blocking the most critical levels in the most critical areas of the arrival segments. (especially as Emirates needs to be at A100 at 120 DME )Add to this adjacent sectors that we have no dialogue with that feed 3/4's of your traffic, antiquated equipment, disgusting traffic management procedures (i.e none) and no television in the rest room!!!!
A typical daily scenario I might add.
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and no television in the rest room!!!!
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Runway change! "They were informed"
I landed at 22:15 local and it was relatively quiet i.e. no dirty dives, speed increases followed by decreases, 160 knots till 0 DME etc etc. Passed to the tower that the wind at 200' was 170 at 10. If that is not a heads up then what is
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I'd settle for the odd upgrade, some ID 75 tickets, and the odd ride in the Jumpseat for some famil flights.
Seriously though as has been said a million times on here, surely it is time to get famil flights up and running again. We have tried from our (ATC) side, and nothing has come of it. Maybe if someone reading this has some pull somewhere with Emirates (or any other of the local airlines, except RAK air, no thanks have a family) they could see what they could do. A lot of these things would be fixed or at least understood over a few hours together in the cockpit, and maybe a few shniffters (as Foxy would say) after getting back.
That's not to say the odd upgrade wouldn't go astray.... memories of the good old days flood back.
Seriously though as has been said a million times on here, surely it is time to get famil flights up and running again. We have tried from our (ATC) side, and nothing has come of it. Maybe if someone reading this has some pull somewhere with Emirates (or any other of the local airlines, except RAK air, no thanks have a family) they could see what they could do. A lot of these things would be fixed or at least understood over a few hours together in the cockpit, and maybe a few shniffters (as Foxy would say) after getting back.
That's not to say the odd upgrade wouldn't go astray.... memories of the good old days flood back.
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Fox3Snapshot...
Pfft, dohh... Right back at ya..
Been there, done that. In a P3, due regard, in Dutch AND Brit airspace. If there was EVER an issue, they sure never told us in the post trip debriefing. (Not Schipol or O'Hare, but yes right next door to Heathrow) VERY straight forward is all I can say.
If there is a return to Jump Seat famil flight's fer ya'll, more than welcome on my flight. But...this is Emirates, I don't see it happening soon. No profit potential.
JInglie'd
Pfft, dohh... Right back at ya..
Been there, done that. In a P3, due regard, in Dutch AND Brit airspace. If there was EVER an issue, they sure never told us in the post trip debriefing. (Not Schipol or O'Hare, but yes right next door to Heathrow) VERY straight forward is all I can say.
If there is a return to Jump Seat famil flight's fer ya'll, more than welcome on my flight. But...this is Emirates, I don't see it happening soon. No profit potential.
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NASA, I understood that famil flights were approved quite some time ago by EK's Chief Pilot, H al H. If this is so, I can't think why they haven't gone ahead unless the holdup is at your end.
Fox3, no one, certainly not me, is trying to sling off at the undoubted abilities of the individual controllers who work Emirates and Dubai App/Twr. My point was - and is - that the SYSTEM at Heathrow is also vey good, allowing the controllers there - (who are also very good) - to run a very efficient operation.
What's particularly good from a pilot's perspective is the close in holding patterns at Heathrow. The innermost one for traffic inbound from the East is Lambourne, (there are others, further out, wich are only used if Lambourne fills up), which usually allows all incoming traffic to maintain clean speed until the start of the base turn.
Some 777 pilots offer the Heathrow App controllers their min clean speed when first checking in. Some Heathrow controllers (not all) note this and allow them to maintain that speed until the final turn. (230 k instead of the standard 220 k ex Lambourne.)
The close in hold works a treat - for all concerned. the pilots get to save some fuel, the controllers have a lot of flexibility with the easily stretchable 'S' turn from Lambourne to touchdown. With a minimum holding altitude of 7,000' and a miles to run from the hold of approx 30 miles, this usually allows a very comfortable decelleration and 'dirty up' without dragging the aircraft in - sometimes with gear down and in level flight - which all too often is the case into Dubai.
A hold over the Sharjah VOR with a min holding alt of 7000' would not interfere with arrivals and departures at Sharjah. (Granted, it would require an amendment to some DXB SIDS.) It would also provide the DXB APP controllers with almost the same flexibility as LAM does the Heathrow controllers - and would involve far less of a fiddle for all concerned is the runway had to be changed in the middle of the nighty rush hour.
Fox3, no one, certainly not me, is trying to sling off at the undoubted abilities of the individual controllers who work Emirates and Dubai App/Twr. My point was - and is - that the SYSTEM at Heathrow is also vey good, allowing the controllers there - (who are also very good) - to run a very efficient operation.
What's particularly good from a pilot's perspective is the close in holding patterns at Heathrow. The innermost one for traffic inbound from the East is Lambourne, (there are others, further out, wich are only used if Lambourne fills up), which usually allows all incoming traffic to maintain clean speed until the start of the base turn.
Some 777 pilots offer the Heathrow App controllers their min clean speed when first checking in. Some Heathrow controllers (not all) note this and allow them to maintain that speed until the final turn. (230 k instead of the standard 220 k ex Lambourne.)
The close in hold works a treat - for all concerned. the pilots get to save some fuel, the controllers have a lot of flexibility with the easily stretchable 'S' turn from Lambourne to touchdown. With a minimum holding altitude of 7,000' and a miles to run from the hold of approx 30 miles, this usually allows a very comfortable decelleration and 'dirty up' without dragging the aircraft in - sometimes with gear down and in level flight - which all too often is the case into Dubai.
A hold over the Sharjah VOR with a min holding alt of 7000' would not interfere with arrivals and departures at Sharjah. (Granted, it would require an amendment to some DXB SIDS.) It would also provide the DXB APP controllers with almost the same flexibility as LAM does the Heathrow controllers - and would involve far less of a fiddle for all concerned is the runway had to be changed in the middle of the nighty rush hour.
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Dxb Runway change- ask requested by the Pilots!!
We do not have a lucky draw to determine at what time to change a runway. I comes after the "tailwind on final call" or MET man normally covers all his bases when asked what the wind will do so no real heads-up here either.
Not helping:
The UAE Area boys have to kill a snake in a telephone booth with a golf club as a friend always say. No space for an error or any room to work with. Dubai have to control with one eye close on Noah's radar with one hand behind the back and I think comparing us with Heatrow an Chicago is a bit far-fetched( Just remember they have been in this game far longer than the GCAA or DCA or SERCO and they have a thing called slots vs OPEN SKIES policy here.)
Tell you guys another little secret; a number of our local talent here have never worked parrallel runway operations and the idea scares the are
out of them. The new opening will be interesting with all the new taxiway conflictions. Standby for accidental crossings of active runways by guys getting confused with where to go and where to stop.
EK Boys Stop complaining about the waste of fuel you Dont pay for it with your Platinium Card do you?
Now let see, odds we change the runway evens we don't ......the dyce rolls the runway will....
Changing a runway near you soon
Dct no Speed
Not helping:
- All ariving at the same time
- All departing at the same time
- All complaining at the same time
- Not wanting to be delayed outbound
- Not wanting to be delayed inbound
- Work in progress leaving limited taxiways open only 1 to the holding point
- Restrictions on outbound traffic making finding parking for all as difficult as finding a upgrade on an Emirates flight (10min Riket 5 min Maxmo 5 min Gidis no more Papar no agreement on inbounds from Darax,)
- Airline Operations calling about each and every plane holding and wanting a reason for it(controller ammusement it seems is not a good enough reason)
- Only one downwind
- No close in holds
- and NO COFFEE MACHINE IN THE CONTROL CENTER
The UAE Area boys have to kill a snake in a telephone booth with a golf club as a friend always say. No space for an error or any room to work with. Dubai have to control with one eye close on Noah's radar with one hand behind the back and I think comparing us with Heatrow an Chicago is a bit far-fetched( Just remember they have been in this game far longer than the GCAA or DCA or SERCO and they have a thing called slots vs OPEN SKIES policy here.)
Tell you guys another little secret; a number of our local talent here have never worked parrallel runway operations and the idea scares the are
out of them. The new opening will be interesting with all the new taxiway conflictions. Standby for accidental crossings of active runways by guys getting confused with where to go and where to stop. EK Boys Stop complaining about the waste of fuel you Dont pay for it with your Platinium Card do you?
Now let see, odds we change the runway evens we don't ......the dyce rolls the runway will....
Changing a runway near you soon
Dct no Speed
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I heard two guys ask a local controller in Dubai for an EAT the other night; one of them asked twice. He just ignored them - silence. And it wasn't even busy.
Just an observation. That I wouldn't be able to make about Heathrow or Schipol.
4HP
Just an observation. That I wouldn't be able to make about Heathrow or Schipol.
4HP
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Ok you guys tell me how we can give an EAT that is anywhere near accurate when the following is going on:
1. The runway is being changed so the Dubai boys and girls have an airshow going on trying to clear up the last of the ones landing on the old runway, while juggling the ones that have already got in their airspace before we at the ACC could hold everyone.
2. We have at least a dozen aircraft in the hold on the West and probably 5 or 6 in the hold to the East with a few stragglers coming in from the North and the odd domestic one from AUH/FUJ/RAK.
3. We may have to give 15 or 20 or 25 NM's depending on dpeartures (ie. Dubai can't keep landing guys without departing some or there will be nowhere to park the planes.
4. We are up to our eyeballs with R/T and we have no automated flow tools, so we have to first find the time to work out which number to land you are when we aren't even talking to half the aircraft (ie. they are holding on the other side).
5. A couple of go arounds which is common with the one runway and Dubai trying to squeeze out the departures very tightly due to the above mentioned reason, means all the spacing is forgotten and we go back to holding until advised while the mess is again cleaned up.
Bottom line we will tell you if we possibly can, but to be honest when we have that many aircraft all having to be stepped down in the hold, along with all the extra aircraft coming to us from Tehran that are already below what aircraft are holding at, due to the requirement for Tehran to descend aircraft to FL230 or FL250 or FL270 20NM NW ORSAR (not great when the top of the stack is at FL300!!), we are completely snowed under, so unless you are anywhere near fuel critical, please try not to ask us for an EAT. If I get asked I will always give a time, as I am required to, but it probably will have dark tinge of brown to it, cos you know where I plucked it from just to shut you up, so I can get that next aircraft out of the hold and not blow out the next space.
Also as Fox said, the US Military P3's decide that since DESDI is close to the Iranian islands it is a good place to stooge around and FL155 is a good level to do that, and since they fly due regard, they will talk to us if they feel like it and will tell us that they are changing level or turning if they feel like it.
I hope that paints a bit of a picture for all of you.
Things that everyone could do to help.
1. Give us your level passing and cleared level on first contact.
2. Always use a callsign...ALWAYS.
3. Listen out, and know your callsign, so as not to answer another aircrafts descent clearance. Pretty important in the above mentioned towering holding stack.
4. Not ask the reason for the hold when it is between 10.30pm and 2.30am local. It must be pretty obvious by now the reason for the hold, that is, too many bloody aircraft and not enough runways/sectors/controllers/decent procedures/coffee.
1. The runway is being changed so the Dubai boys and girls have an airshow going on trying to clear up the last of the ones landing on the old runway, while juggling the ones that have already got in their airspace before we at the ACC could hold everyone.
2. We have at least a dozen aircraft in the hold on the West and probably 5 or 6 in the hold to the East with a few stragglers coming in from the North and the odd domestic one from AUH/FUJ/RAK.
3. We may have to give 15 or 20 or 25 NM's depending on dpeartures (ie. Dubai can't keep landing guys without departing some or there will be nowhere to park the planes.
4. We are up to our eyeballs with R/T and we have no automated flow tools, so we have to first find the time to work out which number to land you are when we aren't even talking to half the aircraft (ie. they are holding on the other side).
5. A couple of go arounds which is common with the one runway and Dubai trying to squeeze out the departures very tightly due to the above mentioned reason, means all the spacing is forgotten and we go back to holding until advised while the mess is again cleaned up.
Bottom line we will tell you if we possibly can, but to be honest when we have that many aircraft all having to be stepped down in the hold, along with all the extra aircraft coming to us from Tehran that are already below what aircraft are holding at, due to the requirement for Tehran to descend aircraft to FL230 or FL250 or FL270 20NM NW ORSAR (not great when the top of the stack is at FL300!!), we are completely snowed under, so unless you are anywhere near fuel critical, please try not to ask us for an EAT. If I get asked I will always give a time, as I am required to, but it probably will have dark tinge of brown to it, cos you know where I plucked it from just to shut you up, so I can get that next aircraft out of the hold and not blow out the next space.
Also as Fox said, the US Military P3's decide that since DESDI is close to the Iranian islands it is a good place to stooge around and FL155 is a good level to do that, and since they fly due regard, they will talk to us if they feel like it and will tell us that they are changing level or turning if they feel like it.
I hope that paints a bit of a picture for all of you.
Things that everyone could do to help.
1. Give us your level passing and cleared level on first contact.
2. Always use a callsign...ALWAYS.
3. Listen out, and know your callsign, so as not to answer another aircrafts descent clearance. Pretty important in the above mentioned towering holding stack.
4. Not ask the reason for the hold when it is between 10.30pm and 2.30am local. It must be pretty obvious by now the reason for the hold, that is, too many bloody aircraft and not enough runways/sectors/controllers/decent procedures/coffee.