The offer is out to ANZ guys - thoughts?
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FSM, I can see where you are coming from, and in a way I do agree with you. What you say makes sense, and indeed, without representation, the only way for our T&C's to improve is a staff shortage.
Having said that, I still cannot see a big difference between the NZ guys and myself for example. When I came to EK, officially I did resign, but I knew my previous company would take me back whenever I want to return. Although it was not written on paper, the company knew me and would take me back anytime.
As I understood out of the previous posts, the NZ guys would have to do the same interview to join, would have a three year bond and thereafter can decide if they want to stay or go.. Only difference is that it's written on paper for these guys.
Of course, if the kiwi boys get a different treatment than 'normal' EK pilots, then it's a completely different matter.
Something that would be unacceptable would be the hiring of contract Captains, but that's the same discussion as the DEC one.
MR8
Having said that, I still cannot see a big difference between the NZ guys and myself for example. When I came to EK, officially I did resign, but I knew my previous company would take me back whenever I want to return. Although it was not written on paper, the company knew me and would take me back anytime.
As I understood out of the previous posts, the NZ guys would have to do the same interview to join, would have a three year bond and thereafter can decide if they want to stay or go.. Only difference is that it's written on paper for these guys.
Of course, if the kiwi boys get a different treatment than 'normal' EK pilots, then it's a completely different matter.
Something that would be unacceptable would be the hiring of contract Captains, but that's the same discussion as the DEC one.
MR8
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OK I can see it from your point of view, but for me and many others there was no going back unless you went back to the bottom. So to come here there was risk, and to accept that risk there was reward, ie the package. Now to keep people coming, EK can increase the reward which we all benefit from, or reduce the risk, which favours only guys like those from NZ. I guess we will have to wait and see if the rumour becomes fact and what the details are. At any rate, I can't see it as a positive for me.
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Sounds like a case of "WIFM & The Green Eyed Monster".
One things for sure, I doubt that any professional reading some of the thoughts here would be that keen on joining Emirates....
Oh I get it now....duh....try to put applicants off, Emirates doesn't get pilots, package increases....
PIDGAS
One things for sure, I doubt that any professional reading some of the thoughts here would be that keen on joining Emirates....
Oh I get it now....duh....try to put applicants off, Emirates doesn't get pilots, package increases....
PIDGAS
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Atiuta, you are wrong with your assumption, I would like people to come, I don't want to work 90-100 long/short haul hrs a month for ever. EK needs pilots to expand and that will help my life style. But market forces are our only tool for change in conditions and the cycle in our favour does not come around very often. It is here now and I would like to see it benefit me and the others who are already here, not to much to ask. On the balance I am happy here, happy enough to stay anyway. No one has to post here to put people off, the Ts and Cs are doing that for us and hooray for that.
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What I do not understand is why we constantly avoid tackling the issue of Ts & Cs and do everything else which is costing more?
One way or another EK is losing out by not attracting the pilots it needs, experienced pilots resigning, sub-contracting training, hiring contract pilots etc etc. I cannot believe that they have chosen the cheapest option.
One way or another EK is losing out by not attracting the pilots it needs, experienced pilots resigning, sub-contracting training, hiring contract pilots etc etc. I cannot believe that they have chosen the cheapest option.
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looks bad when you need to use the airlines you compete with to do your training ie; BA and SQ. do you get the feeling the fat lady is clearing her throat?oh but there never will be basings, i guess you should never say never
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Interestingly (possibly)... the managers dream of DEC Commanders occured in Gulf Air 1975 onwards.
Unfortunately it did not remain a dream and soon a whole raft of BA and RAF and Cathay retired and LWOP from other major career airlines were direct entried onto the new Gulf Air L1011 fleet as Captains,First Officers and Flight engineers.
Their daily allowance was more than twice the going rate for GF crews and their salery was started at the 10years of service increment level....when I asked why... the explanation was they expect more than ex Dan Air UK pilots!
Also they were given first crack at the better GF houseing.
To improve Gulf Air First officer morale further... the Gulf Air operations manager at that time a Mr Peter Bruce Souster issued a memo to the effect that all future Gulf Air Commanders would be Nationals or DEC.. BA or Cathay retirees... if there were no National was available...another board of directors dream that eventually turned into an operations department nightmare...this memo was cancelled after the number of excellent GF Captains and first officers resigned to go to airlines such as Laker, SIA and Cathay.
Even flight engineers decided to walk or resign and some joined BA for a career, life style, and pension....all highly ready trained previousely for GF by BA at great cost... on LVP on the L1011.
Some crew even went to Saudia..which showed just how peeded off people were as Saudi was not considered the ideal airline career.
Some Gulf Air Captains even took F.O. positions with Cathay.
Company loyalty just fell apart in three years thanks to DEC policy and other attacks on terms and conditions.
All this eventually proved so not cost effective that even the management noticed that quality career first officers and flight engineers now refused to join GF and to top it all off the BA and Cathay Commanders already here decided they did not like non union treatment much, or the min rest, and only 28day rosters, issued late and had the nerve to say so and when ignored resigned or jumped ship.....after about four years it all went away and things got back to normal....however the poison had been laid and the spirit of the operations department destroyed...now as soon as someone got a command they then went to SIA or basically anywhere....and to prove a point some of the fully funded from zero flight time local pilots did too!...
This GF management policy did continue in other areas of terms and conditions and eventually IMHO progressively ratcheting down the terms and conditions produced a series of serious incidents and eventually the A320 crash and has resulted in the past six years of misery and problems and caused Gulf Air to arrive at what it is today....I find it very interesting (seeing what these policies produced at Gulf Air) why other airlines now follow this same management style 30+ years on....maybe I do not see the management "bigger picture" and only remember the horror of the Gulf Air A320 crash shown on the BBC TV when I had been retired....I feel the first drop of GF crash poison was laid all thoes years ago....and I feel the results at EK could be the same....someone once said..."Forgive them father for they know not what they do"...maybe that is why they are called managers and not pilots and why I do not understand it all.
Unfortunately it did not remain a dream and soon a whole raft of BA and RAF and Cathay retired and LWOP from other major career airlines were direct entried onto the new Gulf Air L1011 fleet as Captains,First Officers and Flight engineers.
Their daily allowance was more than twice the going rate for GF crews and their salery was started at the 10years of service increment level....when I asked why... the explanation was they expect more than ex Dan Air UK pilots!
Also they were given first crack at the better GF houseing.
To improve Gulf Air First officer morale further... the Gulf Air operations manager at that time a Mr Peter Bruce Souster issued a memo to the effect that all future Gulf Air Commanders would be Nationals or DEC.. BA or Cathay retirees... if there were no National was available...another board of directors dream that eventually turned into an operations department nightmare...this memo was cancelled after the number of excellent GF Captains and first officers resigned to go to airlines such as Laker, SIA and Cathay.
Even flight engineers decided to walk or resign and some joined BA for a career, life style, and pension....all highly ready trained previousely for GF by BA at great cost... on LVP on the L1011.
Some crew even went to Saudia..which showed just how peeded off people were as Saudi was not considered the ideal airline career.
Some Gulf Air Captains even took F.O. positions with Cathay.
Company loyalty just fell apart in three years thanks to DEC policy and other attacks on terms and conditions.
All this eventually proved so not cost effective that even the management noticed that quality career first officers and flight engineers now refused to join GF and to top it all off the BA and Cathay Commanders already here decided they did not like non union treatment much, or the min rest, and only 28day rosters, issued late and had the nerve to say so and when ignored resigned or jumped ship.....after about four years it all went away and things got back to normal....however the poison had been laid and the spirit of the operations department destroyed...now as soon as someone got a command they then went to SIA or basically anywhere....and to prove a point some of the fully funded from zero flight time local pilots did too!...
This GF management policy did continue in other areas of terms and conditions and eventually IMHO progressively ratcheting down the terms and conditions produced a series of serious incidents and eventually the A320 crash and has resulted in the past six years of misery and problems and caused Gulf Air to arrive at what it is today....I find it very interesting (seeing what these policies produced at Gulf Air) why other airlines now follow this same management style 30+ years on....maybe I do not see the management "bigger picture" and only remember the horror of the Gulf Air A320 crash shown on the BBC TV when I had been retired....I feel the first drop of GF crash poison was laid all thoes years ago....and I feel the results at EK could be the same....someone once said..."Forgive them father for they know not what they do"...maybe that is why they are called managers and not pilots and why I do not understand it all.
Last edited by scanscanscan; 9th Apr 2007 at 18:48.
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scanscan,
The head-honcho at EK learned his craft as a manager at GF. Perhaps he was there during the cluster-$#@& you mentioned and has always thought it was a good idea.
The head-honcho at EK learned his craft as a manager at GF. Perhaps he was there during the cluster-$#@& you mentioned and has always thought it was a good idea.
