LOSA observers at EK

[ruserious]

I think you'd find that a phone call to our own regulatory affairs office over at the Ops centre will confirm that.

I thought that you had been here long enough to realize that these people will lie or mis-represent the truth to you at every opportunity. Just look at the mirrors and smoke emails about leave. BM in the regulatory office is another of our whipped managers, who does what he is told otherwise he loses his job, same with ED.
You are applying logic and reason to a management that optimizes everything possible, even if it is totally wrong or illegal. Why the GCAA is inactive I have no idea, way above my pay grade that one.

[Andu]

Bit like the time some years ago BM did a SYD AKL to "see" what the crew were complaining about - and spent each sector in a First Class seat watching movies or sleeping.

His report? He couldn't see what the crews were complaining about.

[145qrh]

Bit of interesting info on LOSA from Icao....interesting?? well information...
"More then 6000 LOSA observed flights and not one has been used to discipline a pilot " Until EK ...well who knows.
(http://www.icao.int/ANB/humanfactors...alltext.en.pdf)

[atiuta]

LOSA audit, the first question to be asked by airline management is whether the pilots endorse the project. If the answer is “No”, the project should not be initiated until endorsement is obtained. This issue is so critical in alleviating pilot suspicion that the existing LOSA philosophy is to deny airline
assistance if a signed agreement is not in place before commencing a LOSA. A LOSA steering committee is formed with representatives from both groups and is responsible for planning, scheduling, observer support and, later, data verification

Genuine question, were we asked if we supported the LOSA project?

[GMDS]

........ and apparently one skipper has already been taken off the roster ....

[ruserious]

........ and apparently one skipper has already been taken off the roster ....

Oh, shirley they can't be that dumb, can they......

[145qrh]

Another in a long line of Firsts for EK ( if true).

And stop calling me shirley..

[Scooter Rassmussin]

The QAR would pick up operations outside of the limmits. the fact a LOSA observer was present would not have changewd the outcome. Do you as fellow pilots not want protection from unsafe practices....

[GMDS]

True Scooter. Getting somewhat paranoid beyond the 40°.....
Good that BOTH, QAR and LOSA, picked it up, I agree.

[ruserious]

However do we really need someone to fly along with us to identify what the major threats are? I think most of us could tell you what the problems will be before we even get airborne

Yes it does seem obvious, we all know the problems, however it is all pretty anecdotal and subjective. What LOSA has the potential to do, is gather objective data that proves the threats, using a well tried and tested system that uses correct data-mining and statistical structures to prove what threats there are in a system.
So I think it is a good system, BUT, the problem is, I believe you are spot on about the plaque on the wall, never do anything about it management response

[OVERCHINA]

I dont understand ?

Seaman
" I really think this is a PR project and a great waste of money, hence I'm sorry to say I will respectfully say no to the guys."
Sorry I don't get it .Nobody knows what will come of LOSA .You are presuming
it will be a waste of time but you don't know .
Why not ask yourself this questions.
[FONT="Arial Black"]"WHAT if it does make a difference ?"
"What is it costing ME to have an observer on board?"
"What have I got to lose by having an observer come along ?"[/FONT]My answers were "this cost me nothing" "I have nothing to lose here"
I did a LOSA flight and as I said before he was one of "US" a good guy .We had a good trip and it was totally painless...

[Gillegan]

I've had discussions with a couple of LOSA guys already and they come out with all the same sort of reasons why they should come along on flights, but ask THEM if they feel it will do any good and they admit nothing will change. Yes the report wil get published in the PUBLIC forum, but who will take any notice of it? Yes they will publish the threats and make objective comments HOWEVER THAT MEANS NOTHING IF EK TAKE NO NOTICE AND DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THE ENVIRONMENT WE WORK IN!!!!!
Thus I go back to the simple point that yes they may do a worthwile job but what is the point of spending the money on it if nothing will happen...............................and plesae don't tell me that you believe that just because the University of Texas has anything to do with LOSA means EK will actually do something!!!

I agree that based on previous experience, nothing will change - until the investigators are standing around a smoking hole in the ground and ask, "Were there any signs this was coming?". That is when an accurate LOSA report could be valuable. Without it, those responsible will just continue with their modus operandi of blaming others and taking no responsibility for their own actions.

[BYMONEK]

Gilligan

Absolutely agree. It's about Corporate resposibility and with the LOSA findings, they can't then turn round and say we didn't know. Hopefully, any recommendations in the final report will be acted upon.

[Mr Mugabe]

Jump seat sorry LOSA

As usual its all done for the right reasons but no thought process involved........ are we or are we not short of crew? Yet they roster a TRE to observe check train two guys going to Sanna with another pilot as an observer in the back, yes four crew. Why not train the FCTI's to do this job and kill two birds with one stone, they can do it on their line fights, not take away line pilots. Some one has to fill in for them.
Hello left hand this is right hand what are you doing today????????

[EK LOSA guy]

A brief history of LOSA at EK

Have been forced to come out of my cave bcos of some of the posted on this topic.

EK was supposed to do a LOSA some years ago. MQ and TCK killed it bcos they were scared of what would be found out and placed on record.

Does that not say anything to all you sceptics about the process?

WE all now the problems.

WE all know that 'short-term' Flt Ops 'mis-managers' have been slowly destroying this company.

WE all know that there are serious safety issues out there.

But they are not documented anywhere. The managers with corpses to hide make sure they buried deep until those same managers get fired. That's happened many times already. The next sucker who replaces him, doesn't even know where the bodies are buried.

TCAS and Ed do not understand what LOSA is about. So they agreed to it.

LET THE PROGRAM RUN GUYS. DO NOT SABOTAGE IT FOR SILLY REASONS.

When it is done, then the problems are on file. Of course they will not be revealed to the pilots. Who cares? We know what they are already. Let's work together to get the issues on record by an objective, respected third-party.

And GMDS - we won't get the jumpseat until TC is no more. Your little jihad will accomplish nothing ol'buddy.

[ruserious]

Yep, couldn't agree more

[GMDS]

EK LOSA guy
Nice post, for your first. But I have to agree with you, a jihad is as efficient as its followers motivation and there seems to be not enough of such.....
I give in to the thought that as long as TC plays Robert around here, there's nothing to expect.
Concerning your enthusiasm about the pressure some LOSA finding will put upon EK, i'd place my bet on a horse that runs (and not one that talks).
The blokes who are in charge here have long sold their pityfull souls to the allmighty doe, so even if they WOULD understand what such a report represents, they would hardly act. They have their return ticket booked in First the very day the s*** hits the fan and will leave the frontrunners to pick up the soap.
Keep hoping

[mensaboy]

A couple of interesting things i've heard about LOSA. One is that if a certain percentage of refusals happen, the results from the observations are disregarded. I don't know what that percentage is, but I'm sure EK will approach that threshold if not exceed it.

I am hoping that the threshold is approached, but we just sneak in under the wire, so that the results are analyzed, yet it becomes apparent... due to the high number of refusals, that there is a serious problem at EK. At the very least there is a problem when it come to transparency, and the obvious 'fear and intimidation' management techniques.

I will say that our LOSA observer was professional to the tee. I don't have any complaints whatsoever about him, although my colleague was less that pleased with some events, and to a certain extent I did understand his apprehensions. The one and only thing I questioned, was his motivation for becoming a LOSA observer, but that is something from which I never got a good answer.

I believe that EK is pre-empting things because in the future, apparently, this will be a requirement of airlines.

I have no misconception that EK will ever change their tactics, but I see no reason not to document the faults now. This airline could be the best airline in the world, if only they would stop hiring the likes of Ed and TCAS. It would take such little effort to repair the damage done here in the last 4 years, but I doubt that they have the forsight or will to do it.

I only wish the LOSA program had the power or inclination to change things, but I suspect it will end up being a fruitless experiment. Oh yes.. don't forget.............. mention the flight time limitation problems.......... that is one area that we might get some results. I doubt that LOSA can remedy the overall management issues, but at least FTL's are something that is concrete and directly relevant to safety.

[ernestkgann]

Mensa I don't disagree with the gist of your post but hoping Ed, TCAS or their replacements will fix things denies the root of the problem. They are Tim Clark's appointees and run flight ops just as he wants it. To run the operation independent of upper management would mean changing from the 'save at all costs philosophy' this company uses. In countries where there is proper oversight this philosophy is tempered by the regulator but, alas, not here.
The two stooges would be required to fall on their swords at some point if they attempted to run the company properly.
It's Timmy's airline and he runs it just as he wants to.

[gatvol2006]

The Big Picture?

Look at your life .... you ... not you EK pilot puppet ... YOU! If any of you or member of your family are stranded somewhere ... do you get a jump seat? Just asking!