EK - Why bother?!

[TangoUniform]

Sorry, haven't even met Capt. America or wouldn't know him if I tripped over him. But I guess I should have read the forum rules first and realize there is no positive posting allowed.

I guess fatigue can be a personal issue. If you're tired-you're tired. Simple as that. And good for the guys that took the time off. What I am comparing EK in the fatigue factor is what I have been doing for the past 10 years-and this type of flying is much easier and less fatiguing-for me. Twenty four hour layovers-nice. And how nice that there is a medical department that backs the pilot in the fatigue area. A medical department that is more than window dressing. A medical department? What's that? So thank you for making my point, that EK does have some very positive aspects and it isn't all negative. Isn't that what this thread was about in the first place?

I am not arguing that there are not fatigue issues at EK, but to take at face value what is being touted here as the gospel that everyone is dragging ass around the CBC is not the whole story. So I guess I better get some rest or you will see me at the clinic.

TU

[Vorsicht]

TU

You are full of ****e.

It is common knowledge that 24hr layovers are unmanageable for proper rest, that is why the FTDL is less when you have had between 18 and 30 hrs rest. That is also why EK crews suffer chronic fatigue. Because they fly short, medium, long and ultra long haul in the same month, often with 24 hr rests between duties.

When you get some time up, come back and argue your point properly.

V

[ironbutt57]

TangoUniform do not confuse being tired or sleepy at the end of a block or in your room downroute with chronic fatigue...two very different animals....

[Ahad Adump]

Boooooyyyyyysss

Toddler Undertraining has done less than 18 mnths.
We were there once too, remember?
Give him time.......we'll see him at the KAL interview soon.

[ruserious]

there is no positive posting allowed

Is that a dummy I see tumbling through the air after being freshly spat-out
I get a bit sick of the old argument that its only people who feel negative about the company that post here, inferring that all the people who feel good don't post. You can post good, bad or indifferent comments here, but if you say something that people don't agree with, or in your case TU, a load of bollox, then you will have it commented on.
My experience is that every day I go to work, I get to fly with other pilots who are knackered and very unhappy with the company's dishonest and irresponsible behaviour. Yes there are a minority that are still happy here, but then they tend to be new hire F/O's who have come from somewhere worse. 3 year F/O's in my experience, tend to be the most pissed off.

[twieke]

Try 3 years and 8 months FO's

[uplock]

Just so you dont trip over this guy

Brian became a Legend in his own Mind and an instant Celebrity when he was outed by the Moderator on this board who highlighted a split personality. One of the more entertaining posts here...but just so you do not trip over in the CBC next time Tango Uniform

[ruserious]

Try 3 years and 8 months FO's

I wish I could offer you more than sympathy.
However it does effect everyone, the more crap like the upgrade time debacle, that they think they can get away with, the more they are encouraged to try other genius HR cunning stunts on the rest of us.

[Bigyin]

Thank you all so much for the lively debate that ensued my initial request for some sensible info.
After all that I am now none the wiser.
What I have deducted from all your posts are mainly issues with a negative twist.
It seems that most of you are not happy with (in no particular order):
- Management
- Pay
- FDTs
- Actual Time to Command (vs promised time to Command)
- Lack of training with big "T" and poor training
- The building site that is referred to as Dubai
- Lack of a seniority based system
- Ts & Cs (i.e most of the above)
- Low morale
- Inflation
- Traffic on roads
- Lies from company
- Heat
- Sand
- Laws
- Cheap furniture in provided accommodation
- Provided accommodation
- ???? I am sure I have missed some....
But generally you all seem happy with:
- Nice, big, new shiny jets
- Leasure activities (when not suffering from exhaustion!!)
- ???? Hmm. Guess that is it.
So, all in all, it still sounds like a dire outfit to work for.....!
Oh, what the heck! Nothing ventured nothing gained (or lost in this case). Booked my ticket to the desert this afternoon, so will go and see with my own to eyes how bad it is. Always been interested in architecture, so even if I fail my assessment miserably, I can spend a few days admiring the sights/ sites.
Thanks again and I wish you all a much happier future career wherever you chose to go.
Regards,
Bigyin

[violate]

That pretty well covers it, however depending on your current situation it might be still worth a punt, just remeber that your expectations will take a continuous pounding after you get here.

[point8four]

And you thought KEEP DISCOVERING was meant for passengers only.

[ShockWave]

Some leave, most think about it (at least occasionally),and some leave and come back again! It ain't all bad or all good for that matter(just like anywhere else), as stated above keep discovering(for yourself)!


Have heard a rumour that at least one recently departed crew member has decided to leave his new job with J* and return to EK????

[Cyberbird]

... just in case i have to come up with my "B-plan"

... well the hard facts are (at least for me) ...

i'm now sitting over (!) 3 years on the RHS of a nice shiny A 332 (after not having enough hard hours on my previous command) - doing lots of overtime,
can't take my leave (portal says: Sorry - nothing avail/ all red!) and scored all my recent PPC's with 4 or better - and have NOT yet been called for aninterview for my upgrade - there is apparently a "capacity-problem" @the training department - what a bull***i. as they keep training DEC on behalf of ours - well, i know, i know it's their trian-set ...

... nd i wouldn't be whinging, if my salary wouldn't have gone DOWN some 25%-ish against the EWuro, which means i'm working some 90plus hours monthly for some crappy 4000ish Euros - that sucks really !!!!

So, a salray-increase of 30%-ish would just (but just !) cover my LOSSES from my salary i've received three years before !!

If that doesnT happen - i've just apdated my CV's on diferent databases -
just in case i have to come up with my "B-plan" - be prepared !!

[dedeita]

Originally Posted by Cyberbird

....

... nd i wouldn't be whinging, if my salary wouldn't have gone DOWN some 25%-ish against the EWuro, which means i'm working some 90plus hours monthly for some crappy 4000ish Euros - that sucks really !!!!

Basic salary 19660 dhs equals 4112 euros for 78 hours, 325 dhs for each productivity hours above 78 and you said you made 90plus hours that is around another 1000 euros. 5200 euros/month tax free, company accom, education allowance,car loan, 42 days leave, still continue being better than my package in my own country flying for a national flag carrier.

B-plan could be: send a letter to the EU goverment to devaluate the euro at least 20%. Traveling to Europe is more expensive each day
Regards

[Fart Master]

Dedeita, I think you have some fair comments......however,
1. How many months a year do you want to do 90 hours of Short/Medium/long & ULH, going east to west, min days off etc.

2. 4112 Euros = what I was earning after tax 4 years ago as an FO in europe, high cost of living etc, nope that doesn't stand up.

3. Company accom, swings both ways really, if you get your mortgage paid at home then it is a bonus, however if you want to go home to decompress from DXB once or twice a year it's nice to do it in your own home = having to pay your mortgage anyway= co. accom a bit of a benefit, also don't talk about buying/renting accom in DXB, bad karma dude

4. Ahh yes, 42 days leave, where a working week with weekends = 9 days leave, so we get 42/9 = 4.67 weeks leave per year, thats if the leave people will give it to you, I personally have no complaints, but I know a lot of people who have had rough deals.

5. Education allowance- I can get the same standard of education for my children for free at home, so I don't see it as a benefit at EK.

6. Car loan, the second word is loan, thats right you still have to pay it back. But yes I will give you the point thats it's interest free, so a small benefit there.

7. Although I have had to make comparisons with my home country to answer your points, I am not sure why you said it was better than the package in your own country, you won't be living in your own country. The one exception I will say is whether you have to send money home for mortgages etc. the AED is not worth much these days + UAE inflation is starting to hurt.

I hope my points may bring some perspective to your points, adios compadre

[dedeita]

Originally Posted by Fart Master

Dedeita, I think you have some fair comments......however,
1

. How many months a year do you want to do 90 hours of Short/Medium/long & ULH, going east to west, min days off etc

. I been doing 90 for more than 10 years,as an example at my company roster..NRT-MEX-48hrs rest-MEX-MAD,i still in the short/medium haul

2. 4112 Euros = what I was earning after tax 4 years ago as an FO in europe, high cost of living etc, nope that doesn't stand up

.
my basic salary is 3000 euros/month, usually i dont see that amount because we fly a lot overtime but i dont want to tell you what happen when for some reason you dont hit overtime

3. C

ompany accom, swings both ways really, if you get your mortgage paid at home then it is a bonus, however if you want to go home to decompress from DXB once or twice a year it's nice to do it in your own home = having to pay your mortgage anyway= co. accom a bit of a benefit, also don't talk about buying/renting accom in DXB, bad karma dude

no more thank God mortgages payments, we have a nice place in the Mexican Riviera that we are not keep it if we move to EK

4

. Ahh yes, 42 days leave, where a working week with weekends = 9 days leave, so we get 42/9 = 4.67 weeks leave per year, thats if the leave people will give it to you, I personally have no complaints, but I know a lot of people who have had rough deals.

last year took only 10 days because the remaining 30 were paid,i couldnt say anything because was Union voted

5. Education allowance- I can get the same standard of education for my children for free at home, so I don't see it as a benefit at EK

.
Hey Man remember that i am from Mexico,I wouldnt recommend goverment public school not even to my worst enemy(kindergarden around 300 euros/month)

6. Car loan, the second word is loan, thats right you still have to pay it back. But yes I will give you the point thats it's interest free, so a small benefit there.

Yes interest free, car loan annual interest in Mexico around 15% plus an annual payment they call TENENCIA of 2.6% the value of your car(1300 euros my case)


I

hope my points may bring some perspective to your points, adios compadre

I really appreciate your time for reply, you gave me a perspective, i think that EK must be considered base on each individuals

Hasta la vista

[V2+ A Little]

i wish my only worry was to ek or not................

[ekpilot]

So children, to summarise: If you are from a Third World Country* then EK is for you, as the salary is fantastic compared to your home countries, the lifestyle enviable and the education far better than Bogota Grammar. However, if you're from Europe, Australia, NZ or the US and faced with the 'to EK or not EK' then it's hardly worth it.

Now does that statement reflect the current demographic make up of those joining and those leaving?

* Third World Country used as purely a reference to those countries that are normally commonly referred to as such, and certainly not part of the G8 group of nations. It does not reflect my own point of view as after all, Malaysia does have serious industrial aspirations and the Proton is a very fine car indeed. And Mexico? Don't they still manufacture VWs?

[Check 'Six']

Comparisons are one thing.

What your salary buys you in Dubai is another subject entirely.

Who cares about whether you are earning double what you are making now in your hometown? The real issue is what buying power do you have living in Dubai? Seeing as you and your families are going to be spending a large portion of your time and money here.
Now if you happen to have anything left over after spending on your expenses in DXB? That's great! Now you can look at what's left over to make any sort of comparison as to what that left over can buy you back home? Be it a mortgage a holiday etc...

Unless one decides that living in DXB as a single person, whilst the family lives abroad. Shares the cheapest accomodation one can find i.e paying for a room in a villa at Mirdiff. Keep expenditures to an absolute minimum and commute whenever and however possible to spend time with the family.

Commuting is very tough in EK. It was a lot easier years ago with an older rostering system called SBS. And simply because there were no restrictions on bidding for days off. I remember on a regular basis getting six days at the end of one month followed by another six or even eight at the beginning of the following month. Plus as a captain on the A310, doing 95 hours a month. Long before the 330/340.

And yes the cost of living was a lot cheaper. So my left over salary back then, bought me a lot back home and abroad.

In conclusion; Unless EK stick their hands deep in their pockets for a substantial pay increases and a massive change of their attitude toward their staff? The flood gates will remain open. They will not be able to retain key staff positions and they are certainly having a tough enough time to convince pilots to join.
They have saved huge sums of money by paying peanuts across their staff network for years. It's about time they put some of that hard earned money back into their own employees, which happens to be their biggest asset. But unless that big change in attitude occurs, we probably wont see anything significant in monetary terms either. Pity, really.

Check 'Six'

[Gillegan]

Originally Posted by Check 'Six'

They have saved huge sums of money by paying peanuts across their staff network for years. It's about time they put some of that hard earned money back into their own employees, which happens to be their biggest asset. But unless that big change in attitude occurs, we probably wont see anything significant in monetary terms either. Pity, really.
Check 'Six'

Spot on as was the rest of your post. To folks sitting on the fence (either to leave or to come), the change in attitude is what is required and is what we probably won't see. This place really started to slide downhill about 4 years ago. Think back to what happened - the start of the hyper expansion and the appointment of a new airline president. Neither shows any signs of going away. This flight department is run exactly like the boys in the head office want it to be run. If the rumour is true that the jumpseat was denied us yet again when it finally made its way to the big guys desk, then it just goes to show that nothing has changed and most probably, nothing will change.