watertheflowers

On the other hand what about all the alarm bells left ringing, gear left down, terrain warnings due TOGA not applied that happen in the simulator. Mostly because the guy hasn't given a moments thought to what he will really do if an engine does fail at V1 and has no recall of the required sequence of actions.

I do not exagerate (much) and briefings are for the briefer to review his actions for his own benefit as well as the briefees.

Chances are that when a crew have to follow a complicated procedure that is not rehearsed or repeated on a regular basis they will make mistakes. This could include EFATO, RTO and probably NPAs as well.

No great fan of the EK brief as a whole but when an engine stops we might be pleased that we thought about it just half an hour ago rather than at the last recurrent check.

WTF

ruserious

Andd of course the ONLY failure you will ever have in real life is a EFATO or RTO. Monkey see, monkey do, monkey has very few skills

watertheflowers

S'pose that along with avoiding flying into a hill and windshear recovery EFATO and RTO require immediate recall of rarely used memory actions, whereas most other failures are managed as time allows using aircraft or paper checklists.

Forgot to mention circling approaches, mostly flown to a standard somewhere between mediocre and bad. Which brings into question the usual spiel that includes the visual quick return after takeoff, often briefed without consideration to the hazy conditions that would make such a manouvre hazardous in the extreme.

WTF

ruserious

OK, I'll bite..
Yes they are time critical events, but in every other airline I have flown the bus, we managed to get by on just the critical points. Not the verbalising of every possible action you are going to make including what autopilot modes you are going to select, when you are going to select them etc. etc. Who gives a monkeys about what you are going to do to the FCU above 1100', its just unnecessary noise.

Give your average pilot an engine failure at 200' and watch how many mess it up, because they are so preprogrammed into the paint by numbers V1 EFATO.

Briefs should be about the important aspects and threats to a specific flight. Due to the humans limited ability to listen and concentrate, they need to be brief and contextually pertinent, not the same old waffle that drones in one ear and out the other.

flareflyer

Guys,
in stead of bothering Aussies or other nationalities why don't we stick to the thread?

If i am not wrong the thread was about lack of pilots for emirates recruitment.............

So, we better show our management that we are professionals.................

Who cares about the briefing? Follow S.O.P. that's it.

Brix

Cant't help it. By reading this thread about making simple things complicated there's just one reply: pathetic. Are you lads still getting the Volmet wx of all of central Europe when taking off from Munich to Dubai? The common (wealth) sense doesn't seem to be changing which makes me feel a lucky punk cos I' ve changed it - for meself.

Happy holidays - if there is one.

MTOW

I wouldn't be bothered if it was a briefing. Instead, it's a multi-volume, time-consuming tome, and as many have already said, I honestly think most don't hear what's being said and some who intone it don't have clue what they're saying - they just say it by rote.

As someone has already said - the Boeing FCTM says to mention only what's going to be different about the departure. Like most things from Boeing, it's only put into print after careful and well-considered deliberation by some people who are considerably smarter than most of us.

And getting back to the subject of the thread, yes, I believe that recruiting are struggling to find enough candidates of the same calibre they are used to having to choose from, but I don't consider it would be a bad thing at all if they were instructed to broaden their search to include high time turbo prop pilots to come here as FOs.

I think most such people would make excellent FOs, and probably better ones than many who have gone straight into big jets from their initial training.

BYMONEK

MTOW

Can't agree with your last comment i'm afraid. Do you think Jamie Oliver would be a better chef if he'd cut his teeth flipping burgers in Mcdonalds.............."pucker".........."lovely jubbily"!

That doesn't mean to say, however, that I don't agree with recruiting prop guys. I'm not so sure that our training department's current 'checking' culture is set up for it. Getting guys to be aware of, let alone execute CDA's, is frustrating until you realise they've simply not been taught throughout training. Some have never even heard of it! If there was one sure way of improving fuel costs, even by 0.5%, this would be it. last week, level at 2000' while 12 miles out.....with speedbrake until 2500'. Bonkers! I bet we're still one of the worst into the UK. After the yanks.

And before someone tries to tell me otherwise, yes, it is possible to combine one without compromising on a stabilised approach.

MTOW

OK, I'm happy if we agree to disagree. It's just that I don't think it's a bad thing to have some prople among the FO ranks who've had a fright or two and dealt with it themselves in second level (turbo prop) operations.

I accept they might require a bit more training - but most of them might be a bit more content to accept that they'll need a few years in the right seat before they start demanding their upgrade.

Re the CDRs: I'm still amazed how many FO's I encounter who are unwilling to use V/S mode because they tell me some captains have criticised them for using it. Had a guy drag it in at 2000' for God knows how many miles with 20 flap out a couple of days ago. It would have been soooo easy to have made it a continuous descent - and saved a bucketload of fuel.

scanscanscan

IMHO v/s should only be used on final descent configured to land on a npa and used to control small changes in the ROD if required.
To see v/s mode used by a new Fo in prolonged descent from cruise or even used in the climb autopilot in or when manual flying caused me to rapidly wake up as my stall protection had just been lost.
Sorry... but based on 10years B767 flying and the things I saw that is my two fills worth. Off to take my medication.

BYMONEK

I can see the concern regarding V/S use in the climb, with a high rate commanded or at high level, but in the descent? I'm sorry, but shouldn't we both be awake anyway regardless of the mode we're using. And if some people don't like it then open up the throttles in FLT/CHG. You are allowed to touch them you know!

chinawladi

Wow, scanscan, you might have been shook by some FO, but now you scare me! Prop guy's might have a certain lack of experience, but you seem to have too much and should consider leaving a two man cockpit meethinks.
I very much back up BYMONEK on this.

typhoonpilot

Nobody is saying to use Vertical Speed in a prolonged descent from cruise or when climbing with the autopilot disengaged.

Not directed at you per say, but at others who may have the mistaken impression that a B777 is a B767. A Boeing 777 IS NOT a Boeing 767. Keep your old company procedures and your old aircraft ideas out of the picture. Read Chapter 9 of the FCOM, specifically "Pitch Envelope Protection". You'll find that it really is very difficult to stall a B777.

The use of Vertical Speed in the terminal environment to accurately fly a CDA approach is widely accepted. It can be done in FLCH with the thrust levers, but that requires a lot more work and heads down time and isn't anywhere near as smooth.

Have you noticed the number of TCAS RAs being reported recently? Guys need to be aware of their rate of climb or descent in RVSM airspace. If it is too high when approaching the cleared level they must decrease it to less than 1500FPM ( preferably 500 to 1000FPM ). One way to easily do that is to use Vertical Speed.

The use of Vertical Speed was brought up recently. I think those who were teaching that it stood for "Very Seldom" have now been put straight.


Typhoonpilot

BYMONEK

Typhoon

Couldn't agree more Just a shame the training dep't don't emphasise it more!

ruserious

Ahhh but Studi, you would then have to think for yourself. I agree completely with you a well planned and executed open descent ought to be the optimum method.

typhoonpilot

I agree with you also studi, but ATC contrainsts often times prevent that from happening. What the guys here are talking about is that perfect "open descent" plan getting messed with by extra track miles on downwind, etc. Then what do you do? Some people leave it in that descent until level, not adjusting for the extra track miles, resulting in a long period of level flight. That is where the use of Vertical Speed, or some other method to reduce the descent rate, would be preferred.


Typhoonpilot

ruserious

Anyway, as Open Descent requires some thought, we would have to call the FCDM for permission to use it, as we are not allowed to think independently any longer

scanscanscan

Sorry guys.. my error... I failed to notice this was titled as an Emirates thread.
Please do whatever you like on the B777.
Happy for you if Boeing have finally fixed this killer mode on their new machines.
Chinawaladi...you can relax... I retired in May 2000...hope you make retirement also.

Wiley

As someone has mentioned already, I find you frequently have to consider using V/S mode in the climb these days if in very crowded airspace or risk setting off an TA or even an RA on the TCAS. I accept that this was a very bad idea on earlier types, but Boeing seem to have covered most bases very well on the 777, as since selecting V/S in the last 1000' or so of the climb always involves a major reduction in RoC and both pilots are very much aware of what's going on in doing so, the chances of getting into a stall are almost non existent.

I think you can save considerable amounts of fuel (and not blow the noise monitors in places like Heathrow) using V/S and the 'green banana' to effect in descent rather than always using Level Change, which can result in repeated noisy, costly spool-ups.

But it would seem there are a few die hards still out there who think using V/S puts you into an open descent. It might have been true on a 707, but it isn't on a 777.

atiuta

Two things about this topic.

1. It's off topic.

2. May as well join you, I can't recall anyone getting excited about V/S in descent. Use it to reach TOC and you may get someone's attention, but I can't see what the issue is otherwise. Yes we all know about risk of TCAS (the real one) approaching an intermediate level, but I'm talking close to optimum altitude when the climb rate is normally less than 1000 fpm. Why on earth would you want to use V/S at this point?

Once-upon-a-time, Emirates used to ban the use of V/S in the climb and apart from the discussed possibility of TCAS there really is no need to use that mode and every reason not to. Spare a thought for the other guy if he gets a bit edgy in those circumstances.