EK Training Revamp
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: DUBAI
EK Training Revamp
Once again, the hire and fire mentality for all these years in EK lingers on. Mobs is gone, how is that going to solve the poor (or lack of) training in EK when they need it most. Check, check, check. Any monkey can sit in that back seat and check......" you screwed that up" ...."yea I know"!
A real trainer is one who can brief his students well enough so that they don't fail it in the first place. ie give a perfect briefing / demonstration of an exercise, then cover all the faults and considerations, and if the exercise is not carried out correctly the instructor should be able to point out why and what do to so as not to repeat the mistake.
Unfortunately we are sitting with the ex 310 training culture where the "dead wood" trainers who were never trainers in the first place, are still holding their positions today. A nightmare for any upgrade or PPC candidate. Play the game or else!
Cummon lets make the trainers take responsibility for failures! Howzat for a healthy training department! Oh and you recruiters, same goes for you.
For all those about to throw mud.....I'm not a failure candidate, I trained myself!!!
A real trainer is one who can brief his students well enough so that they don't fail it in the first place. ie give a perfect briefing / demonstration of an exercise, then cover all the faults and considerations, and if the exercise is not carried out correctly the instructor should be able to point out why and what do to so as not to repeat the mistake.
Unfortunately we are sitting with the ex 310 training culture where the "dead wood" trainers who were never trainers in the first place, are still holding their positions today. A nightmare for any upgrade or PPC candidate. Play the game or else!
Cummon lets make the trainers take responsibility for failures! Howzat for a healthy training department! Oh and you recruiters, same goes for you.
For all those about to throw mud.....I'm not a failure candidate, I trained myself!!!
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: DUBAI
"BROKEN ENGLISH" You happen to be one of these doods who is happy to see an FO with no command experience shoved in the LH seat and be told to get on with the job and get assessed for it from word go. Cummon mate, give the guy a break. If you saw how shoddy the "training" he recieves before entering and while in the LHS it is no wonder there are so many failures. I can't believe anybody would enter his upgrade without preperation, if this is the case then he deserves to fail. However no EK training manuals clearly explain the do's and don'ts of the LHS, so yet again he cannot self teach himself the management skills from the LHS. This is where the "instructor should be pulling out all the stops to "train" the upgrader, rather than check him from word go. If he recieves the quality training he deserves and the recruiters have recruited him correctly as a budding Captain then there will be no problem.
Having said that, a lot of the few good trainers we have are not given a fair time to do this in due to the lack of allocated training time given by the company for these training sessions.
Lowering recruiting standards to fill the required number of pilots needs extra training time. Time = money, little time = poor training, poor training either means more failures or lowering of passing standards, poor operators means a higher risk of the enevitable that no airline wants to see!
I'm sorry but the operational degredation of new terrified (by the system) F/o s and DEC's joining the line is a fact today. A recipe for disaster....hopefully not. Lets watch this space.
A high morale Branson management module is urgently required in EK. Emirates have a wealth of well experienced instructors flying the line of which EK can tap into, this pool of experience trainers are are not interested due to the mentality and politics of the present dept. There has to be a radical change of thinking and policies for the better to attract these guys to join the training dept. No wonder there is always a lack of volunteers.
Ultimately the buck starts with recruitment, then training ... if those depts are in order, then standard of pilots we recieve on line will be of a much higher standard.
Having said that, a lot of the few good trainers we have are not given a fair time to do this in due to the lack of allocated training time given by the company for these training sessions.
Lowering recruiting standards to fill the required number of pilots needs extra training time. Time = money, little time = poor training, poor training either means more failures or lowering of passing standards, poor operators means a higher risk of the enevitable that no airline wants to see!
I'm sorry but the operational degredation of new terrified (by the system) F/o s and DEC's joining the line is a fact today. A recipe for disaster....hopefully not. Lets watch this space.
A high morale Branson management module is urgently required in EK. Emirates have a wealth of well experienced instructors flying the line of which EK can tap into, this pool of experience trainers are are not interested due to the mentality and politics of the present dept. There has to be a radical change of thinking and policies for the better to attract these guys to join the training dept. No wonder there is always a lack of volunteers.
Ultimately the buck starts with recruitment, then training ... if those depts are in order, then standard of pilots we recieve on line will be of a much higher standard.
Last edited by gatvol2006; 1st October 2006 at 03:10.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: DUBAI
This one is for you Mr MAX AB. " Potty trained". Weak mate, you sound as if you are one of these trainer fatcats from over 10 years service willing to reap the extra money but not prepered to put the work into the job.
You are also seen as the "rule by axe" type where you expect every candidate that walks into the training center to brown nose you. Mate your type are the type that have to be erradicated and replaced with competent experinced proper trainers. Until EK get rid of the dead wood trash trainers...nothing will change!
You are also seen as the "rule by axe" type where you expect every candidate that walks into the training center to brown nose you. Mate your type are the type that have to be erradicated and replaced with competent experinced proper trainers. Until EK get rid of the dead wood trash trainers...nothing will change!
Last edited by gatvol2006; 1st October 2006 at 03:11.
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From: In the State of Perpetual Confusion
The thing that disturbs me about much of this thread is that many of the responses suppose that the problem lies with individuals. Unfortunately, this is the same attitude taken by our management that relieves them of the responsibility that many of our problems are due to decisions and policies taken from above. There is no doubt that some of the criticism of the training here is warranted. Where I think the criticism is misplaced is that it seems to be focusing on individuals rather than the system that is spawning the problems. Lets face it, this airline is run by beancounters and has been for years. Ask any middle manager in the company (and not just in Flt. Ops.) and if they are honest, they will tell you that they do not have the resources to do the job adequately. Sim sessions jammed packed with manoeuvres that don't allow time for instruction? It's been that way for years and the minute that anyone suggests stretching it out - perhaps with an extra sim session, the beancounters are on it like you know what - costs too much. Can't do a practice NPA on line? Don't hold your breath for extra sim training to take up the slack. If there is a problem with newer instructors, more than likely the problem is not enough training or supervision when they are starting out. In any type of system, if the data shows a trend (and not just an isolated incident), then by definition, the problem lies within the system (policies, procedures and processes) that has been set up by the company. Of course it is much easier to blame individual pilots/instructors/middle managers.
Emirates is, by a lot of measures, a very successful airline. They maintain a centralized, iron handed control over their costs. We line employees see first hand some of the consequences of that control. The depressing thing is that this might be what is required to run an airline in this day of $70 a barrel oil. It certainly doesn't seem to be unique to Emirates - they just seem to be better at it than others.
Emirates is, by a lot of measures, a very successful airline. They maintain a centralized, iron handed control over their costs. We line employees see first hand some of the consequences of that control. The depressing thing is that this might be what is required to run an airline in this day of $70 a barrel oil. It certainly doesn't seem to be unique to Emirates - they just seem to be better at it than others.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: OZ
gatvol, thankyou for your observations and comments on my personality etc. If you can come up with all that from the two words I posted then impressed I am. Perhaps you should consider gracing a training department with your skills and try and fix the problem you are so passionate about.
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Australia
Gatvol
Your description of a briefing is an interesting one! Just how long do you think it would take to brief it? If you are an airline Pilot, then you should have your research and study skills developed to a high enough level to self brief any item in the syllabus, so why do you expect a training Captain to do it for you.
Highlight the traps and give some helpful hints and suggestions perhaps, but break everything down to an ab-initio level is ridiculous unless that is the level of the trainee.
Spend some time talking to the experienced line crew we have when you are next flying and make use of their knowledge of the job. They don't need to be trainers to give good advise.
As proffessional Pilots we should allways be searching for ways to make ourselves better at this job, not leaving it until Sim day.
Highlight the traps and give some helpful hints and suggestions perhaps, but break everything down to an ab-initio level is ridiculous unless that is the level of the trainee.
Spend some time talking to the experienced line crew we have when you are next flying and make use of their knowledge of the job. They don't need to be trainers to give good advise.
As proffessional Pilots we should allways be searching for ways to make ourselves better at this job, not leaving it until Sim day.
Joined: Sep 1998
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From: Dubai ,U.A.E.
I have to agree that a good performance begins with a good briefing. So that is why conditions and standard of behaviour should be briefed as well as common errors so that they can be possibley eliminated. However when a check is being conducted the TRE should refrain from any input or he is leading or corrupting the performance. During a training Sim then the instructor should allow the student to evolve his own solutions but then correct if a significant deviation occurs. When A trainer has to correct an issue that has not been trapped by the student then an assessment must be made of, was this simply an action slip, error or mistake. When a student is expected to perform to a certain level based on his previous training and he does not, he should be corrected and also marked accordingly. so in summary if you have been briefed as to the expected standard, then expect a grade that reflects that performance. the majority of trainers are trying to to improve the students performance as this is generally their motivation to be involved with training.
When the perception that the training department is there to beat guys then the feedback, training and goals of the training department have been lost.
When the perception that the training department is there to beat guys then the feedback, training and goals of the training department have been lost.
Last edited by Desert Driver; 1st October 2006 at 23:36. Reason: typo
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: DUBAI
Hey Max I would not waste my valuable time, skills, and effort for an organisation who treats their trainers / students as just another piece of sausage being mashed out on the other side. They have no loyalty to us, so do you realy thing we should reciprocate? Sorry mate I enjoy my OFF time and overtime far more than ageing myself. Let the circus continue.
Shockwave, correct me if I am wrong, you seem to be one of these EK brainwashed "teach yourself" types. Hopefully you are not a trainer, this could be worrying. Its pretty obvious we are not talking abinitio here, we are talking how to do it the "EK way". How is a starter, even knowing the books backward supposed to know how EK want you to do it? Cummon lets talk "checking culture" for now and hopefully one day when this department gets smart they will hopefully employ a "training" culture. Good training will mean far less failures, less remedial training, save on sim time and obviously money. As far as line pilots teaching collegues on line.....forget it mate, firstly they are not qualified to do so and are not paid to do so. When a guy is signed out to fly the line, surely he is expected to perform well at his duty without being carried by the other pilots. Is this happening today? Oh so not.
Shockwave, correct me if I am wrong, you seem to be one of these EK brainwashed "teach yourself" types. Hopefully you are not a trainer, this could be worrying. Its pretty obvious we are not talking abinitio here, we are talking how to do it the "EK way". How is a starter, even knowing the books backward supposed to know how EK want you to do it? Cummon lets talk "checking culture" for now and hopefully one day when this department gets smart they will hopefully employ a "training" culture. Good training will mean far less failures, less remedial training, save on sim time and obviously money. As far as line pilots teaching collegues on line.....forget it mate, firstly they are not qualified to do so and are not paid to do so. When a guy is signed out to fly the line, surely he is expected to perform well at his duty without being carried by the other pilots. Is this happening today? Oh so not.
Last edited by gatvol2006; 2nd October 2006 at 03:15.
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From: here
I think that the management should remember that a TRAINER is a person that can TRAIN people. It is very easy to EXAMINE someone, a lot harder to TRAIN and INSTRUCT. TOO MANY of the 'trainers' at EK are EXAMINERS who don't know how to train.
Many of our 'trainers' have never trained before, have not been formally taught how to train and so revert to what they have seen at EK during their initial training and upgrade. It is all very well to say how it is written in the book but much harder to actually notice what a trainee is actually doing wrong, then correct it. I would suggest that the STANDARDS dept should fly with all the trainers regularly, to make sure that they are doing is standard and not totally at odds to what others are doing (no names)!!!
The sooner we get away from 'knowledge is power' ie I'm a trainer and I know lots of stuff which you don't, so I'll belittle you and make you realise how little you know, to one where trainers train and give constructive ideas and thoughts,the better.
By the way we have some very good trainers out there, if you are lucky enough to fly with them you will realise how poor some of the others are!!
Many of our 'trainers' have never trained before, have not been formally taught how to train and so revert to what they have seen at EK during their initial training and upgrade. It is all very well to say how it is written in the book but much harder to actually notice what a trainee is actually doing wrong, then correct it. I would suggest that the STANDARDS dept should fly with all the trainers regularly, to make sure that they are doing is standard and not totally at odds to what others are doing (no names)!!!
The sooner we get away from 'knowledge is power' ie I'm a trainer and I know lots of stuff which you don't, so I'll belittle you and make you realise how little you know, to one where trainers train and give constructive ideas and thoughts,the better.
By the way we have some very good trainers out there, if you are lucky enough to fly with them you will realise how poor some of the others are!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: DUBAI
Minicooper, 100% my man I could'nt have put it better. Can I vote you to joining the "training dept" ? We need people like you! Unfortunately its the management and EK mentality that will be very hard to change.
I could'nt have put it better. Can I vote you to joining the "training dept" ? We need people like you! Unfortunately its the management and EK mentality that will be very hard to change.
