The 160 knot thread
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Yes 03R I know along with the low level Abu Dhabi - Dubai aircraft, they can cause a problem. The crews in Dubai that have handled that problem best are the ones that use intelligent selective spacing in a timely manner. That is they look out on the big scale, work out the sequence of landing, realise they will have a problem and perhaps ask for one 30 NM gap through Bubin between 2 specific aircraft to facilitate the Darax arrival, rather than letting it go to pot on final. If we are told early that an extra slot is needed (and early is not 10 NM's before BUBIN or DESDI, cos by then we should already have our spacing sorted out), it is no problem and at the same time as asking for specific big gaps, they are also calling to give us reduced gaps when able, the traffic flows brilliantly and everyone is happy. Unfortunately I only know of 2 crews in Dubai that consistantly do this.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Wonder what this will turn into when the Jebel Ali airport comes online, and the MSA is raised significantly due to the worlds tallest building being erected...smells like NY area JFK, LGA and EWR all over again...good luck fellows..interesting times ahead
Join Date: Dec 2002
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An old tread I know but I just saw this in the UK CAA MATS Part 1 Supplementary Instruction No. 1 of 1995
Pilots are expected to maintain as close as possible the speed value allocated by ATC. If the aircraft speed is at variance from the allocated speed by 5 Kt or more then ATC must be informed immediately.
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The speed is XXX - fly it or advise unable to comply. Simple. It's not a request really, it's a control instruction. Just like a heading or altitude. The same reason you don't fly at 5500' when cleared to 5000'.
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So Ernie... are you saying that as UAE residents bound by UAE regulatiuons, we should treat ATC speed instructions the way many (most?) UAE drivers treat posted speed limits on UAE roads?
Join Date: Dec 2002
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ICAO Doc. 4444
4.6 HORIZONTAL SPEED CONTROL INSTRUCTIONS
4.6.1.1 In order to facilitate a safe and orderly flow of traffic, aircraft may, subject to conditions specified by the appropriate authority, be instructed to adjust speed in a specified manner. Flight crews should be given adequate notice of planned speed control.
4.6.1.4 The flight crew shall inform the ATC unit concerned if at any time they are unable to comply with a speed instruction. In such cases, the controller shall apply an alternative method to achieve the desired spacing between the aircraft concerned.
UAE ATC Units are following the ICAO rules and regulations. Happy now ernestkgann? Funny that is how pilots behave according to instructions given in Europe compared to the Middle East, it must be the same as the roadmanners somehow
4.6 HORIZONTAL SPEED CONTROL INSTRUCTIONS
4.6.1.1 In order to facilitate a safe and orderly flow of traffic, aircraft may, subject to conditions specified by the appropriate authority, be instructed to adjust speed in a specified manner. Flight crews should be given adequate notice of planned speed control.
4.6.1.4 The flight crew shall inform the ATC unit concerned if at any time they are unable to comply with a speed instruction. In such cases, the controller shall apply an alternative method to achieve the desired spacing between the aircraft concerned.
UAE ATC Units are following the ICAO rules and regulations. Happy now ernestkgann? Funny that is how pilots behave according to instructions given in Europe compared to the Middle East, it must be the same as the roadmanners somehow
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Min rate of descent?
Great, can you clarify the minimum rate of descent required as well to save me looking it up? I believe 1000 ft/min but a lot of guys want to use less to save fuel...
Join Date: Sep 2001
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As far as I am concerned as long as you meet the 13,000ft height requirement by the appropriate STAR point, descent at whatever rate you like. If I need you to get down faster for whatever reason I will tell you. If when told a rate and you don't comply (so as to save fuel) you will burn more fuel going on a scenic tour of the Gulf, just as happens when you try and cheat on the speed restrictions.
Bottom line guys is we give speeds so we can either not vector you or at least minimise the vectors. If you don't comply with the speed that doesn't change the spacing we have to give Dubai, so we will find an alternative, which may be best case scenario a vector, worst scenario, we will stop your descent and run everyone else through who are doing what they are told while you hold. That will be done and has been done. If you can't fly the speed as instructed tell us sooner rather than later so we can make alternative plans.
Bottom line guys is we give speeds so we can either not vector you or at least minimise the vectors. If you don't comply with the speed that doesn't change the spacing we have to give Dubai, so we will find an alternative, which may be best case scenario a vector, worst scenario, we will stop your descent and run everyone else through who are doing what they are told while you hold. That will be done and has been done. If you can't fly the speed as instructed tell us sooner rather than later so we can make alternative plans.
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V happy thanks, I follow speed instructions as given by ATC unless there's a knot or two in it and I can save on lowering the next flap setting. My point was the relevance of UK regs over our ops. Thanks for the work though.
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Well...its not on the STAR jepp plate. And not in the old Fragment of AIP I received when I joined.
And, well, I did start trying to download a new GCAA AIP and search various ICAO/JAR/FAA/CAA documents and then a thought occurred to me:
"Stop being a sad bastard and go to the beach".
I'll just keep doing my own thang on vectors and in the DESDI hold. Hope it doesn't inconvenience anyone.
And, well, I did start trying to download a new GCAA AIP and search various ICAO/JAR/FAA/CAA documents and then a thought occurred to me:
"Stop being a sad bastard and go to the beach".
I'll just keep doing my own thang on vectors and in the DESDI hold. Hope it doesn't inconvenience anyone.
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True Earnest - UK regs don't apply to our ops - however if you're operating into UK (I know the thread is Dubai ops) then CDA's apply. It's amazing how some guys don't understand this and barrel down to platform altitude, then drag it in in level flight for 5-10 miles