typhoonpilot

Can somebody, for the love of God, please tell Dubai Approach control to stop telling B777-300s to slow to 160 knots until within about a 6 mile final!!!

Typhoonpilot

ruserious

It may be obvious to you or me why that is a problem, however any ATCO's reading this may need a bit more explanation of the problem

inverter

Hey TP, try this R/T pharseology with the controller, "DUBAI APPROACH, EMIRATES (what ever) UNABLE 160Kts. Plus try to explain it while they tell you to unwind before 4NM.
Regards
INV

typhoonpilot

I've said that phrase more than 50 times now. One would think they would begin to see a trend. I've written a CSR or two, e-mails, etc, but the problem persists. Heathrow Director seems to be the only ATCO that understands and can plan accordingly.


You're right of course, but needed an attention getter to start the thread. The problem is thus: A Boeing 777-300 at max landing weight ( which is what we often arrive at ) has a min clean speed of 229 knots; flaps 5 speed of 189 knots; and flaps 15/20 speed of 169 knots. To go any slower than 169 knots we have to put the landing gear down. That is something that we would like to avoid prior to the normal glideslope intercept point.

It seems that even when a controller uses 170 knots they haven't actually planned the spacing based on that and you end up very close to the preceeding aircraft. The tower tells you to slow to min speed on initial contact, ( which is 154, by the way ). It gets very uncomfortable with a late landing clearance and in some cases a go-around ensues.

I know the controllers are doing the best they can and have limited airspace with which to work us. It takes a lot of extra radio time to explain to them that we would prefer not to accept 220, 180, 160. Wouldn't it be better to just plan 777-300s based on 230, 190, 170 ? It would save a lot of extra radio calls and reduce the number of go-arounds.



TP

ruserious

From my experience on the line, speed control has become a mantra that the DXB controllers sing, sometimes with little awareness of actual relative velocities. The difference between doing 160 and 170kts over a distance of 4 miles is bu**er all squared. I follow ATC's speed instructions as best I can, but sometimes common sense and airmanship has to prevail.

boeing-man

Alternatively, just comply instead of lengthy radio explainations. After all dropping the gear and doing 154 or 160 for the rest of the flight only entails an additional burn of about 2 to 3 hundred. We burn that much just to speed up 1 minute!

EGGW

TP, just fly 169 kts, like Ruserious says the difference over 6 miles is bugger all. Saves lengthy explanations over the RT. Maybe someday we can do some jollies for the ATCO's in DXB, and maybe they will understand the issues different aircraft face on approach.

EGGW

Wiley

Kamelf, (love the handle, by the way), you may have misunderstood. With the 777, it's quite normal to find yourself landing at or very near Max Landing Weight into Dubai after carrying minimum fuel from your departure point. It has something to do with how clever those folks in Seatttle were in designing the aeroplane and how clever those people in EK Commercial Dept are in filling it to the optimum with payload.

Roll on the ATCO famil flights, I say. I thought they'd been approved some months ago, but as far as I'm aware, they haven't started yet.

dunerider

I realise TP you are rule bound and not flexible enough to simply fly a couple knots faster however why dont you ask your mate BM's alter ego to go in and see the boss about your speed problem.I'm sure the management hasn't the inclination to bother with your written requests.By the way we hardly ever land at max landing weight in DXB

typhoonpilot

I'll ignore your childish attempts at winding me up .

You may be flying different flights than me, If it's not 169 then its 168, 167, 166. The point is it isn't 160 that we can do and it isn't good to fudge. If you accept 160 that is what ATC expects you to be flying. Any ATCOs please chime in if I'm wrong in that statement.

TP

southflyer

Oh, and I thought I was the only one getting bored in Dubai.......

You heard of "operational flexibility" ??

Hey Paco, if you are listening to these pilots at your radar screen, could you please decipher this puzzle and give them some peace?

Now I will go do my FCOM revisions.......

...and yes, I am 17 by the way

dunerider

Typhoon you are a joke and the only child around here. If we were all as inflexible as you the A/C wouldn't get of the ground. Try for once to take your company hat off and think like a real pilot and give the professionals in ATC some flexibility. They are well aware of what you can and can’t do.

FlightDetent

Once a Frankfurt Director was VERY clear and loud about this. Eversince I make all of my best efforts to ensure that things go exactly that way. Albeit my cockpit voting percentage is 0. If I want ATC to be considerate I must not cut any corners, catch 22. It may not be apparent at first glance yet the easiest way to achieve things is by the book.
Cheers, FD
(the un-real)

Tivoli Vertigo

Do you also expect to be +/- 5 NMs separated to other traffic???

Just fly the speed given!

Aircraft no. 1: 160 kts becomes 155 kts and
Aircraft no. 2: 160 kts becomes 165 kts

No. 2 is 10 kts faster, not a lot but that's 1/2 NM in 3 mins = loss of separation! If you have to space them tight

Tell us your speed (e.g. 170kts) early enough and we'll make it happen some how

sec 3

A little bit off the thread but...After going into Khartoum today, you won't hear me complaining about ATC anywhere else!!

typhoonpilot

Thanks for the answer Tivoli.

This from another ATCO:

"To be very straight, I'd expect you to fly 180 to 10 miles and 160 to 4 miles. If I assign 160, why would you only slow to 170?

Now, to be totally honest, it's hard to tell from my seat if someone assigned 190 for instance is actually flying 190, or 200 or 180 for that matter.

But in the middle of a tight sequence, where everyone's playing nice, assigned and flying the same speed, except for one... guess who gets pulled out if it doesn't work? Or guess who everyone gets to thank when I have to start assigning "final approach speed" 15 miles from the airport?

Now I do realize that there are human factors, fudge factors and everything else involved, but I expect you to fly the assigned speed as closely as you can.

The airport I do approach control for has essentially a single runway, and we are asked to provide gaps for departures by the tower when they need it. This has us slowing aircraft to 170 20 miles out or so, to hold a six mile gap or so with the preceding aircraft who's going to slow drastically once within about 5 miles of the field."


So guys, instead of fudging it by up to 9 knots why don't we help out the ATCOs by telling them exactly what we can do. If EVERYBODY did that then maybe they would start to use 170, 190, 230 when necessary.


Typhoonpilot

futr-kofeshop-dweler

I loved this comment! As an Approach Controller in DXB, I usually finish my understaffed 9 hour midnight shift, and rush home to firstly compute minimum clean speeds for not only 777-300, but also IL76's, F50's and even the odd PA28, from any point within 20 miles of Dubai, all dependent on their weight of course. I then (this is before I get sleeping mind you) load all these parameters into flight simulator 95 (Can't afford the lastest version) and do practice approaches into Dubai, wearing nothing but my Captains hat, listening to "Learn to Fly" by the Foo Fighters, dreaming I too could one day be a pilot and get that cool 50% discount card for the cyclone! ...

I think I speak for a lot of the controllers here, our f-in hands are tied by all the crap going on here. If you are working arrival and fail to say "180 to 10, 160 to 4", any fellow controller in the room who is "Dual Validated (tower and approach) will then start to choke u with their headset wires... and tell u to go work upstairs in the tower when a 777 is bearing down at "170kts" not "160kts" on AeroAsia who is trying to find the "on" switch for his airplane while lined up for takeoff....

Point is if we say 160, it's because that's what the guy ahead is doing, and tower is busy puckering their sphinxter to get a departure off in between. So if u could be so bothered please, feel free to use airbrakes, flaps, landing gear, parachutes, hands out of open windows, whatever slows u down, your choice, we're easy, but if u get too close to the guy ahead, you're going to go around, and not only you, but also add a couple of laps to your good friends doing gulf sightseeing tours at Desdi and Bubin... and then all u boys/girls of the skies will get home that much later and not be able to play your ATC/Tracon simulator games...

Post of the week award - thanks futr-kofeshop-dweler - you made our day 4HP

Wiley

Time out for a group hug.

I have to say that one thing that has improved enormously in DXB, (thanks to necessity with the single runway ops), is ATC allowing aircraft to depart with aircraft relatively close in on finals. 12 months ago, you'd sit at the holding point and wait if an aircraft was 10 miles out when you called ready. Today, they'll let you go with just enough spacing to have the other guy at 200' as you rotate - and it works.

Despite the few who've admitted here that they think they know better and just fly the speed they want to rather than that assigned, the Approach controllers seem to have got the spacing down almost if not equal to Heathrow spacing, with the No 2 getting landing clearance about as late as is comfortable as the No 1 clears the runway. Again, it usually works very nicely, (unless some clown doesn't read his Notams and tries to clear at M6).

Now for the sting in my message: I really wish I was getting that late landing clearance with about 800 kgs more fuel in my tanks than I usually have coming into Dubai (and would have at most other ports we operate into) thanks to the cross country vectoring and the too early descent points that result in anything but constant descents into Dubai.

Please, give us holding patterns close enough to the field so that we can stay clean until we need to dirty up for landing. And please give us descent points that will allow a constant descent - and delayed descent points if holding is expected. The F270 requirement 20 miles before ORSAR or the UAE FIR boundary must be costing every airline using Dubai a fortune in unnecessary fuel burn.

my hands are tied

Maybe some A330 pilots would like to put in their tuppence worth on how 160 kts at 10nm is TOO FAST when there is anything over a 5 kt tailwind

Oh the fun we are going to have when the A380 arrives.

When we eventually get 2 Rwys we will be able to use 1 for Airbus a/c and 1 for Boeing, that should solve it.

PS our LVO ops are based on a/c doing 160 kts from 15 miles !!

my hands are tied

Thanks for the appreciation shown, as you say a landing clce as you cross the Threshold is as tight as it can possibly get, unfortunately there have been several Go Aounds recently due to, dare I say B777s being considerably slower than A330s on vacating the Rwy

For our benefit could somebody clarify what exactly is an acceptable speed for taking a high speed turn off at?

Finally you, me, the cleaners and caterers all know the benefit of having closer holds, but it hasn't quite seeped thru to GCAA yet.

Our Hands Are Tied