GF does it again... DECs!!!
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Hey Ironbutt!
I was wondering if you know weather or not you can bid to fly on a particular fleet?
I the event the 320's and 767 are phased out would you have to stay on the airbus side of things coming off the 320?
A buddy of mine was told no problem to go on a different type other than airbus.
I was wondering if you know weather or not you can bid to fly on a particular fleet?
I the event the 320's and 767 are phased out would you have to stay on the airbus side of things coming off the 320?
A buddy of mine was told no problem to go on a different type other than airbus.
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BigEasy, my point was clear - I was not complaining rather I was attempting to explain that moving to the 340/330 is not the godsend people think it is. My friends on the 320 make quite a bit more than I do on the paystub. The last 2 months has seen less OT but prior to that they made good cash.
The simple fact is the Euro stops are bloody expensive so even if I have the same TAFB as the 320/767 guy I spend significantly more of it. Again, it is all point of view is it not? MY sked also flops from day to night far more than the 320/767 guys. I have the skeds of both fleets in front of me. My sked has blocks where I fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night, 24 hours, fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night. My sleep pattern changes 4 times. Far less of that on the other fleets.
Anyway, not to belabour the point, but it 'ain't all roses' on the 330/340.
The simple fact is the Euro stops are bloody expensive so even if I have the same TAFB as the 320/767 guy I spend significantly more of it. Again, it is all point of view is it not? MY sked also flops from day to night far more than the 320/767 guys. I have the skeds of both fleets in front of me. My sked has blocks where I fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night, 24 hours, fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night. My sleep pattern changes 4 times. Far less of that on the other fleets.
Anyway, not to belabour the point, but it 'ain't all roses' on the 330/340.
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Never seen an equipment bid so to speak, once airbus,or boeing, one tends to stay there until command time..then assigned/offered commands where needed by the company...GF have NEVER made anybody redundant when fleets have been changed, or downsized..they always seem to find somewhere to put you...it will be interesting to see how the 767 retirement unfolds if in fact it does..and where crews are placed...the jury is still out on that as far as we know now...lots of rumours..sure at some level a plan is in place, but at this juncture, all we can do is wait until we are in the "need to know" crowd...
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All very interesting......But do now consider the new retirement age of 65y.
It will be interesting to see how many that were terminated against their will at 60y now apply to be rehired....and as what...junior F/O salery or senior Captains salery?
Also how may GF expat Captains now approaching 60y decide to stay on until
65y termination...on their present Captains salery?
What a difference a few days/weeks could make to the total earnings over a further 5 years to these two different pilot groups.
Then there is the......cumulative slow down in commands factor as more and more decide that with no pension they must continue to 65y....and this affect on the F/o salery over five further years or more.... leading to..... further young pilots resignations.
What a pity the GF expat pilots do not have a proper pension scheme like the National GF pilots after twenty years service.
A seniority system does not mean much when retirement goal posts are moved by five years...as always there will be plenty of winners and loosers.
It will be interesting to see how many that were terminated against their will at 60y now apply to be rehired....and as what...junior F/O salery or senior Captains salery?
Also how may GF expat Captains now approaching 60y decide to stay on until
65y termination...on their present Captains salery?
What a difference a few days/weeks could make to the total earnings over a further 5 years to these two different pilot groups.
Then there is the......cumulative slow down in commands factor as more and more decide that with no pension they must continue to 65y....and this affect on the F/o salery over five further years or more.... leading to..... further young pilots resignations.
What a pity the GF expat pilots do not have a proper pension scheme like the National GF pilots after twenty years service.
A seniority system does not mean much when retirement goal posts are moved by five years...as always there will be plenty of winners and loosers.
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Originally Posted by Trader
BigEasy, my point was clear - I was not complaining rather I was attempting to explain that moving to the 340/330 is not the godsend people think it is. My friends on the 320 make quite a bit more than I do on the paystub. The last 2 months has seen less OT but prior to that they made good cash.
The simple fact is the Euro stops are bloody expensive so even if I have the same TAFB as the 320/767 guy I spend significantly more of it. Again, it is all point of view is it not? MY sked also flops from day to night far more than the 320/767 guys. I have the skeds of both fleets in front of me. My sked has blocks where I fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night, 24 hours, fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night. My sleep pattern changes 4 times. Far less of that on the other fleets.
Anyway, not to belabour the point, but it 'ain't all roses' on the 330/340.
The simple fact is the Euro stops are bloody expensive so even if I have the same TAFB as the 320/767 guy I spend significantly more of it. Again, it is all point of view is it not? MY sked also flops from day to night far more than the 320/767 guys. I have the skeds of both fleets in front of me. My sked has blocks where I fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night, 24 hours, fly all day, 24 hours off, fly all night. My sleep pattern changes 4 times. Far less of that on the other fleets.
Anyway, not to belabour the point, but it 'ain't all roses' on the 330/340.
Hi there Trader!
330/340 schedules are far more stable then a 320/767. I don't think there is room for interpretation, since the kind of long haul operation naturally implies less flexibility, leading to less changes. They would change, if they could!
You are complaining about flying all day, 24 hours rest and flying all night?
At least you have 24 hours rest because of the kind of operation the 330 does, we got 11 hours only, or 12 now in BAH.
I don't blame you to be completely out of the loop on what's going on with the 320 fleet. Maybe if you had a taste of flying a cute CCU and fight your way back to MCT and dead head to BAH with 15-16 h night duty, you would appreciate the more civilized operation on the LH fleet.
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LDG NO BLUE,
I can't argue at all about sked stability--- one of my good friends is on the 320 and I see how his sked changes upwards of 40 or 50 times a month!!!!!!!!!
The 767 is the same or worse.
In that regard I can't blame anyone for wanting to get on the LH fleet. MY only point was that it is not all great on the 330/340 either. I would rather have a long day and 12-15 hours off in between - work less total days per month for greater cxredit. Though I will grant you that might not work well if you get the 320 sked with all 45 minute hops.
I think if the company tackled the issue of changing skeds on a daily basis and dealt with favouritism within crew sked on the 320 fleet the crews at GF would be much happier. In fact I think you would even see some people staying on the 320 because they tend to be home more - and depending on your life that may be a real bonus. As I see it, the issue is not so much the 320 as it is the manner in which the crews on that fleet are treated.
I can't argue at all about sked stability--- one of my good friends is on the 320 and I see how his sked changes upwards of 40 or 50 times a month!!!!!!!!!
The 767 is the same or worse.
In that regard I can't blame anyone for wanting to get on the LH fleet. MY only point was that it is not all great on the 330/340 either. I would rather have a long day and 12-15 hours off in between - work less total days per month for greater cxredit. Though I will grant you that might not work well if you get the 320 sked with all 45 minute hops.
I think if the company tackled the issue of changing skeds on a daily basis and dealt with favouritism within crew sked on the 320 fleet the crews at GF would be much happier. In fact I think you would even see some people staying on the 320 because they tend to be home more - and depending on your life that may be a real bonus. As I see it, the issue is not so much the 320 as it is the manner in which the crews on that fleet are treated.
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Hi Trader,
You are absolutely right! The favouritism is the main problem.
Why some guys get always the day trips, scoring overtime easily on ATH, IST and some other keep hoping around the gulf and flying east? We've been discussing this since a long time on prune and nothing happened. There were official complains in the meetings with HOFO (R.H at the time) and the only change we saw was the closing of the rostering counter!
Electronic bidding system!
Take the power out of these rostering guys. Unprofessional, not qualified personnel dealing with a very serious issue.
It will not solve all the problems, but the improvement will be substantial. How much is gonna cost? It pays for itself after a short time, specially with GF and some guys scoring 100 hours O/T and some others flying 50 h.
The thing is, you cannot sleep with an electronic bidding system, nor will it give you gifts when you need something...
Concerning the 330 fleet, I know it sucks to fly to LHR 5 times a month...nevertheless it's wide body time.
The only question is who's going to go there and make the changes, without upsetting certain groups in the company? aHOFO? I don't think so. He has other concerns.
LNB
You are absolutely right! The favouritism is the main problem.
Why some guys get always the day trips, scoring overtime easily on ATH, IST and some other keep hoping around the gulf and flying east? We've been discussing this since a long time on prune and nothing happened. There were official complains in the meetings with HOFO (R.H at the time) and the only change we saw was the closing of the rostering counter!
Electronic bidding system!
Take the power out of these rostering guys. Unprofessional, not qualified personnel dealing with a very serious issue.
It will not solve all the problems, but the improvement will be substantial. How much is gonna cost? It pays for itself after a short time, specially with GF and some guys scoring 100 hours O/T and some others flying 50 h.
The thing is, you cannot sleep with an electronic bidding system, nor will it give you gifts when you need something...
Concerning the 330 fleet, I know it sucks to fly to LHR 5 times a month...nevertheless it's wide body time.
The only question is who's going to go there and make the changes, without upsetting certain groups in the company? aHOFO? I don't think so. He has other concerns.
LNB
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Give the guys and gals in crewing a break, unbeknownst to us there are lots things happening behind the scenes, as commercial dept is trying to rationalise what equipment flys where and when..(a good thing for GF) but many times this causes headaches for ops and of course ultimately us crews as well...as these sudden often daily changes occur, crewing has to react to them often with very little notice...throw in a few tech aircraft here and there, and a bit of sickness, and crew shortages, resignations, (the grass is greener syndrome) that already exist,...and you can imagine what crew control are up against..like "pissing out forest fires"... preferential bidding....funny you should mention that...strong rumour it's in the works...
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Preferential bidding?
You mean a classic North American airline style system . . . the kind where the most junior pilots dine on a steady diet of table scraps, stand-by and the ****iest trips while the senior guys suck the sweetest nectar?
I can understand there are grievances with some of the rostering decisions, but I feel it is a fairer system, with more people sharing the load of the bad trips and reaping the more sought after ones. It has been my experience that the rostering department does entertain requests.
You mean a classic North American airline style system . . . the kind where the most junior pilots dine on a steady diet of table scraps, stand-by and the ****iest trips while the senior guys suck the sweetest nectar?
I can understand there are grievances with some of the rostering decisions, but I feel it is a fairer system, with more people sharing the load of the bad trips and reaping the more sought after ones. It has been my experience that the rostering department does entertain requests.
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How to become a DEC...
...If you are one current, experienced A320 F/O, go to a rapidly expanding Low Cost Carrier like Air Asia [KUL], [100 brand new, factory fresh leather upholstered A320s in the pipline] upgrade within 18 months, fly left seat one year then go back to GF as a DEC! 
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ALso have heard that a new computer sys is in the works but I don't think GF would ever go to a strict seniority bid which can be ineffecient depending on how it is implemented. EK rotating block system works much better with everyone getting a crack at some good flying.
I also agree with Ironbutt - the biggest issue is airplanes going down and the shift in flying it takes to cover the flights. The lack of crews doesn't help........and it goes on. Crew sked is left to pick up the peices and fix the problem.
I also agree with Ironbutt - the biggest issue is airplanes going down and the shift in flying it takes to cover the flights. The lack of crews doesn't help........and it goes on. Crew sked is left to pick up the peices and fix the problem.
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Panama Jack....seniority has to count for something, why shouldnt somebody with 20yrs plus get better trips than some new bloke??? that would be fair...
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I can understand your point of view ironbutt57.
This same logic is also used as justification for the airline pilot salary scale in countries like the USA-- as a new hire you are on a pay scale that practically entitles you for food stamps, but you are told that if you stick it out you will have an excellent package after 15 or 20 years.
Consider it from a humanistic prospective. When does one really need more money and more quality time in life. When one is younger or older? Younger families make do on less out of necesity, but in reality, a better lifestyle and higher pay in the younger years of life is better than when you are in your 50's.
This is one of the things that I have found more attractive about Gulf Air-- a realistic starting salary and all hands sharing the load. It is one additional way to help retain newer people.
Really, I do favor a system where you have an input on preferences and where they are considered on the basis of seniority. As far as I have seen, these requests are already entertained throught the AIM's system (I think they limit it to one or two requests) and that is fair. However, I would hate to see a "build your block" system, where seniority #1 in his position/fleet gets all he wants while the newest guy gets what nobody else wants. Sure, I would also love to have my way with the schedule, but if we are talking about fairness, which system really is more fair?
This same logic is also used as justification for the airline pilot salary scale in countries like the USA-- as a new hire you are on a pay scale that practically entitles you for food stamps, but you are told that if you stick it out you will have an excellent package after 15 or 20 years.
Consider it from a humanistic prospective. When does one really need more money and more quality time in life. When one is younger or older? Younger families make do on less out of necesity, but in reality, a better lifestyle and higher pay in the younger years of life is better than when you are in your 50's.
This is one of the things that I have found more attractive about Gulf Air-- a realistic starting salary and all hands sharing the load. It is one additional way to help retain newer people.
Really, I do favor a system where you have an input on preferences and where they are considered on the basis of seniority. As far as I have seen, these requests are already entertained throught the AIM's system (I think they limit it to one or two requests) and that is fair. However, I would hate to see a "build your block" system, where seniority #1 in his position/fleet gets all he wants while the newest guy gets what nobody else wants. Sure, I would also love to have my way with the schedule, but if we are talking about fairness, which system really is more fair?
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Bidding according to seniority is always more fair. Because the senior guys already have paid their "dues" when they were the "juniors."
Why, for example, should any senior crew member be made to fly a night flight from LAX to JFK, so that a junior crew member, a new kid on the block, can fly a "senior" trip, day flight from LAX to HNL...? Impractical logic.
Why, for example, should any senior crew member be made to fly a night flight from LAX to JFK, so that a junior crew member, a new kid on the block, can fly a "senior" trip, day flight from LAX to HNL...? Impractical logic.
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Originally Posted by GlueBall
...If you are one current, experienced A320 F/O, go to a rapidly expanding Low Cost Carrier like Air Asia [KUL], [100 brand new, factory fresh leather upholstered A320s in the pipline] upgrade within 18 months, fly left seat one year then go back to GF as a DEC!
Hey there Glueball!
I tried to resign my 320 FO position and join again as DEFO on the 330, but they didn't let me....
LNB
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Seniority!
A better seniority should grant the pilot better conditions!
If you are a more senior FO, or Capt, it's to assume you have family with children (stereotyped), therefore it's only fair that this pilot gets more time at home, if he wants! It shouldn't bother a pilot to "suffer" the first years, because he knows the company (not GF) will provide better conditions as the career progresses!
Seniority for:
- promotions and transfers
- demissions or demotions in restructuring phases
- vacations
- salary grades
- staff travel
- base wishes
- block wishes
- food wishes
- prettier FA
- and so on
Now that GF is braking this rule (again), what's left for us here?
LNB
If you are a more senior FO, or Capt, it's to assume you have family with children (stereotyped), therefore it's only fair that this pilot gets more time at home, if he wants! It shouldn't bother a pilot to "suffer" the first years, because he knows the company (not GF) will provide better conditions as the career progresses!
Seniority for:
- promotions and transfers
- demissions or demotions in restructuring phases
- vacations
- salary grades
- staff travel
- base wishes
- block wishes
- food wishes
- prettier FA
- and so on
Now that GF is braking this rule (again), what's left for us here?
LNB
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ironbutt57, the only problem with saying that the senior guys should get better blocks is that they had the benefit of good blocks when they were junior as well!!!! They never worked under strict seniority and so had the benefits of a 'fair' system throughout their career here.
For a senior pilot to say that he now DSERVES a good block due to his seniority is, in my opinion, quite hypocritical.
Personally, I like Emirates system with rotating blocks that ensures everyone has some good months.
AT GF, I also see no reason why each pilot should not be able to list THREE preferences on their monthly bid to be given in order of seniority (instead of the current one choice). This is effecient for BOTH the company and the pilot since it distributes flying to pilots who have particular wants.
For example, a friend on the 320 does not want 4 or 5 day blocks, His friend loves those blocks (due to high TAFB). But he uses his one choice to bid a specific day or set of days off so he and his wife can plan activities. If he was given 3 choices he could bid his days off as well as a bid saying no 4 day blocks while his friend could bid the opposite. In the end each pilot gets some of his choice and the flying gets distributed nicely. This reduces the need for trading and, in my opinion, would reduce sick days.
The fact is we all have lives and with only 8 days off per month it is difficult to have a family life or private life. I would guess that HALF of all pilot sick days have to do with their need to be at their childs school play, activities wuth visiting relatives and then seeing the what happens in the example above - 2 pilots getting the opposite of what they would like when they could each get what the like.
For a senior pilot to say that he now DSERVES a good block due to his seniority is, in my opinion, quite hypocritical.
Personally, I like Emirates system with rotating blocks that ensures everyone has some good months.
AT GF, I also see no reason why each pilot should not be able to list THREE preferences on their monthly bid to be given in order of seniority (instead of the current one choice). This is effecient for BOTH the company and the pilot since it distributes flying to pilots who have particular wants.
For example, a friend on the 320 does not want 4 or 5 day blocks, His friend loves those blocks (due to high TAFB). But he uses his one choice to bid a specific day or set of days off so he and his wife can plan activities. If he was given 3 choices he could bid his days off as well as a bid saying no 4 day blocks while his friend could bid the opposite. In the end each pilot gets some of his choice and the flying gets distributed nicely. This reduces the need for trading and, in my opinion, would reduce sick days.
The fact is we all have lives and with only 8 days off per month it is difficult to have a family life or private life. I would guess that HALF of all pilot sick days have to do with their need to be at their childs school play, activities wuth visiting relatives and then seeing the what happens in the example above - 2 pilots getting the opposite of what they would like when they could each get what the like.
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Think I have to agree with you on this one Trader - some kind of rotating preference system would be more palatable in my opinion. HOWEVER, that's in an ideal world!
Unfortunately, I'd be fearful that the ever present GF nepotism would infect any such system and we would be back to square one.
Reality is, it doesnt matter a damn what we think or want anyway, we are just the hired help, a neccessary evil, and are only tolerated because we are needed - for the time being. An ugly fact, but one that has to be accepted all the same in order to survive in the sand. Banging ones head against the wall will only give you a headache and nothing else, and no one will care.
what to do!!
Unfortunately, I'd be fearful that the ever present GF nepotism would infect any such system and we would be back to square one.
Reality is, it doesnt matter a damn what we think or want anyway, we are just the hired help, a neccessary evil, and are only tolerated because we are needed - for the time being. An ugly fact, but one that has to be accepted all the same in order to survive in the sand. Banging ones head against the wall will only give you a headache and nothing else, and no one will care.
what to do!!
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Well...we have a rotating seniority system in place for annual leaves..havent quite figured out how it works...I train a new guy and he winds up ahead of me in the rotation...but none the less..I guess I'd have to agree with Trader, the same rotation system could be applied to a sked bidding system as well..we'll see
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Back to the initial discussion
Quite interesting discussion about seniority, sked bidding and so on... guess that would also make things improve over here...
Now, back to the initial discussion on this thread, it is now a fact that a couple of DECs are in town for B767 training, plus the guy that came back from Air Arabia.
On the other hand, 2 upgrades from A330/A340 to A320 going on and 2 more scheduled for the end of July.
Jackbauer, since this is a fact now, why did the office deny it 1 week ago?? Either they really don't have the absolute minimum grip of what's going on over here or they deliberately meant to fool you/us...
Ironbutt57, being a trainer on B767 fleet, what is your insight on the fleet's manpower right now? Do you think that would be possible to carry out more upgrades on it?? Is there a real need for these DECs?? What's opinion??
LNB, don't try to resign and then come back, unless you are a local!!!
Safe Flights,
JJ
Now, back to the initial discussion on this thread, it is now a fact that a couple of DECs are in town for B767 training, plus the guy that came back from Air Arabia.
On the other hand, 2 upgrades from A330/A340 to A320 going on and 2 more scheduled for the end of July.
Jackbauer, since this is a fact now, why did the office deny it 1 week ago?? Either they really don't have the absolute minimum grip of what's going on over here or they deliberately meant to fool you/us...
Ironbutt57, being a trainer on B767 fleet, what is your insight on the fleet's manpower right now? Do you think that would be possible to carry out more upgrades on it?? Is there a real need for these DECs?? What's opinion??
LNB, don't try to resign and then come back, unless you are a local!!!
Safe Flights,
JJ