Emirates. Decision on F/O Position.
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Being single, I can save quite a lot of money every month, but then again I'm living on crewfood and Baracuda-beers.. 
If you do have a family, it will be very difficult to save a decent amount of money (comparing to West-European countries, no facts or figures, just personal observations which might be wrong..)
+ Schooling is for free in Europe, EK pays about 90%
+ Pre-school (nursery) is free in Europe, about 1000Dhs/month in DXB, not paid by EK
+ Wife and kids want to go home to visit family (tickets & stay in Europe needs to be paid)
+ Pension fund is simply pathetic in EK
+ No social security in EK
+ Anyone thought about health insurance AFTER you leave EK to go back to Europe, you won't be covered anymore, so extra expenses again
+ Eating out is affordable thanks to EPC (Pilots initiative)
+ Health clubs affordable thanks to EPC
+ Beach clubs affordable thanks to EPC
+ You have to dress up a house or apartment, but can be evicted anytime
+ Buying in DXB is way to expensive now (correction expected)
+ ...
Ok guys, these are just a few personal thoughts in between games after a few G&T's, I stand to be corrected as usual...
MR8
If you do have a family, it will be very difficult to save a decent amount of money (comparing to West-European countries, no facts or figures, just personal observations which might be wrong..)
+ Schooling is for free in Europe, EK pays about 90%
+ Pre-school (nursery) is free in Europe, about 1000Dhs/month in DXB, not paid by EK
+ Wife and kids want to go home to visit family (tickets & stay in Europe needs to be paid)
+ Pension fund is simply pathetic in EK
+ No social security in EK
+ Anyone thought about health insurance AFTER you leave EK to go back to Europe, you won't be covered anymore, so extra expenses again
+ Eating out is affordable thanks to EPC (Pilots initiative)
+ Health clubs affordable thanks to EPC
+ Beach clubs affordable thanks to EPC
+ You have to dress up a house or apartment, but can be evicted anytime
+ Buying in DXB is way to expensive now (correction expected)
+ ...
Ok guys, these are just a few personal thoughts in between games after a few G&T's, I stand to be corrected as usual...
MR8
Some folks at EK put positive spin on everything...up to them, makes moving to Dubai seem like a good move...
I would need to save about one third ,roughly, of my income here to get a pension ..(final salary, 1/50th's) the same as the one I left behind...DOH!
Wont make that mistake again..
People forget about the real world when they move to the sandpit, one day we will have to go back, some of us sooner rather than later....but you have to have a fair wedge of cash in the bank to be ready for it when it happens...
F/os' wages.....dont even come close, and there is no way I can save a tenth, never mind a third of my salary...
Dont want to stick up for oblapop , but a grand is 22hrs of OT, not that hard to get, if you had a choice.
I would need to save about one third ,roughly, of my income here to get a pension ..(final salary, 1/50th's) the same as the one I left behind...DOH!
Wont make that mistake again..People forget about the real world when they move to the sandpit, one day we will have to go back, some of us sooner rather than later....but you have to have a fair wedge of cash in the bank to be ready for it when it happens...
F/os' wages.....dont even come close, and there is no way I can save a tenth, never mind a third of my salary...
Dont want to stick up for oblapop , but a grand is 22hrs of OT, not that hard to get, if you had a choice.
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Originally Posted by 145qrh
Dont want to stick up for oblapop , but a grand is 22hrs of OT, not that hard to get, if you had a choice.
Except in a month with leave, sep, sim etc. Or when coming up on 900 hours FT.
Its possible in maybe 5 months of the year, but say goodbye to your life in those months.
Know somebody up on 900 hours and between July and December he cannot do any overtime at all unless he takes two complete months off. This because of the 900 hour rule. Sure, he's been raking it in so far this year. No life to speak of though. And no more overtime money until 2007.
Would be fairly happy with 82-87 hours a month. But the company doesn't work like that. They work our asses off up to 900 hours and then stick us on sim support when we run out of hours.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Simm support still happening
EKLAWYER fact is the company still are rostering guys for simm support. Flew with 2 First officers over the past 2 weeks who were not happy little chappies having done the 100 % productivity thing with the company, gone over 900 hrs been rosterd the following month off then doing simm support.
Do not expect any back up from the guys in our Flight Safety when this topic is brought to there attention as the response will be
Spinless back up.
The whole purpose when we have gone over the 900 hrs is to give you a month off so you rest and recover not to prop up simm support sessions.
Problem is that it is usually the F.O.s and they dont have the support of the company so unless they have big brass ones the practise will continue despite what has been written on the Pothole.
The Medical Department will support you with days off when others dont.
Do not expect any back up from the guys in our Flight Safety when this topic is brought to there attention as the response will be
"we try not to roster you for simm support..."
The whole purpose when we have gone over the 900 hrs is to give you a month off so you rest and recover not to prop up simm support sessions.
Problem is that it is usually the F.O.s and they dont have the support of the company so unless they have big brass ones the practise will continue despite what has been written on the Pothole.
The Medical Department will support you with days off when others dont.
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Chaps, I don't want to get drawn into an argument about the pro's and con's of company policy etc - we would be here for ever moaning about it, lets just agree that 98% of company policy sucks as far as the F/O's and their families are concerned!
But just to clarify a couple of points:
1. I am an F/O (I started using 'Oblaaspop' 6 years ago when I was a skipper and couldn't be bothered to change the profile! sorry)
2. The entire point of my post is definately not to BIG UP Emirates (god forbid!), but to simply state that I am considerably better off here than where I was in the UK.
3. You could in theory take the housing allowance, an live in a tent (with aircon) or your mates garden shed, in which case that money (1500 squid) would be yours, for you to dispose of as you wish...True?
4. Admitedly, the allowance will not cover all your mortgage/bills (probably only 60-70%), however when you sell the house (assuming it hasn't fallen over) you will have 60-70% or more equity than you would have had if it just came out of your own pocket - and that equity can be taken with you - its YOURS not the Sheiks.
5. In a previous post someone (I forgot who - sorry), stated that a new joiner would start on £2860 at todays exchange rate (7 ish), but failed to mention the exchange rate protection (which is there to go some way towards protecting against high rates) which would give about another £200 on top. (I'm sure you just forgot to mention it, so I thought I would
)
6. I still come up with a figure of just under £5k (with the accom allowane)- help me out peeps what have I missed?
Finally, dont have a pop at a guy for stating facts and figures, unless you are prepared to provide PRECISE facts and figures to counter the argument and not just vague emotionally charged heresay.
Taking cover!!!
But just to clarify a couple of points:
1. I am an F/O (I started using 'Oblaaspop' 6 years ago when I was a skipper and couldn't be bothered to change the profile! sorry)
2. The entire point of my post is definately not to BIG UP Emirates (god forbid!), but to simply state that I am considerably better off here than where I was in the UK.
3. You could in theory take the housing allowance, an live in a tent (with aircon) or your mates garden shed, in which case that money (1500 squid) would be yours, for you to dispose of as you wish...True?
4. Admitedly, the allowance will not cover all your mortgage/bills (probably only 60-70%), however when you sell the house (assuming it hasn't fallen over) you will have 60-70% or more equity than you would have had if it just came out of your own pocket - and that equity can be taken with you - its YOURS not the Sheiks.
5. In a previous post someone (I forgot who - sorry), stated that a new joiner would start on £2860 at todays exchange rate (7 ish), but failed to mention the exchange rate protection (which is there to go some way towards protecting against high rates) which would give about another £200 on top. (I'm sure you just forgot to mention it, so I thought I would
)6. I still come up with a figure of just under £5k (with the accom allowane)- help me out peeps what have I missed?
Finally, dont have a pop at a guy for stating facts and figures, unless you are prepared to provide PRECISE facts and figures to counter the argument and not just vague emotionally charged heresay.
Taking cover!!!
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Oblaaspop, xrate protection is based on rolling rates from when you join the company. Someone joining today doesn't get it today. They may get it later if the rate moves against them, over time it can disappear all together. Another little known fact is that not all nationalities actually get it.
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OK lets state the facts Oblaaspop,
If you worked in the UK doing the same type of work for VS or BA you would be getting 4000 GBP Take Home and have more days off.
You would definetly be treated with a lot more respect.
You could even go onto 50% or 75% rosters and pay, which is not an option at EK.
I would not compare British Middland with EK.
For that matter I will not even compare Ryanair, Easy Jet, Jet 2 that some of our colleagues have joined over the last 18 months.
The fact that the Salary is Tax Free does not realy matter as all that counts is how much you take home.
EK pays F Ohs around 3000 GBP.
The accomodation allowance should no be included as most of us who moved to Dubai kept our houses, and most of us chose to keep one of our properties vacant as we needed a place to call home.
Even if you do rent your property out, some months of the year it remains vacant so you do have costs associated with non Dubai property.
The EK schooling allowance is good, although I must admit that I did not have the choice of sending my kids to a public school in Dubai (Not that I would), but back in the UK and any where you come from you have that choice. Public schooling is very good in a lot of places around the world.
Schools in Dubai are good though, we had no problem with JESS.
I would not include over time, because again at VS and BA that changes the salary significantly. People do not join an airline to do over time. If they care about money, they go on contract and get paid loads...
Allowances around the world have been dropping at EK, I remember doing LGWs for 70 quid and when I left they where down to 55 GBP.
It seems that the other airlines have not yet encountered deflation around the world.
All reputable airlines in the UK and in Europe for that matter have a private pension, and they all have private health insurance for their pilots and their families.
The EK Clinic is nothing more than the GP we have in the UK, and I get the same standard of service.
All reputable airlines in Europe allow the use of Jump Seat priviledges, and they allow their employees to be upgraded to a higher class without asking the permision of the Head of State and his mother.
I can live in France and commute to the UK to work, and on my days off I do not have to to ask for permission from fleet management to leave.
I can go into parks with my children with their bicycles as it is allowed, unlike Dubai.
The beaches both in the UK, and in France do not belong to a Sheikh, and I can use them without an EPC card...
My houses in the UK, and in France do not cost 60-70% of what they cost when I bought them.
They cost 200 % more over the last 5 years, and they will continue to grow. This in itself is an extra amount of money that I have and I would not have at EK.
I am not worried about how many thousands of new houses will come on the market, nor am I worried about what George will do in the region, or how many subcontinent people decide to move to Dubai.
More importantly my life does not revolve around Emirates, as I do not live in a very nice company labour camp, and I do not constantly worry about what the new cost neutral policy is going to be.
Emirates policies are an extension of the Emirati view on expatriate workers. We are all "labourers" with a beautification policy to make us believe that we where not. We lived in very nice labour camps, got picked up by company transport, where given a liquor licence and a pilot's club card so that the company could keep an eye on our social life, and where forced to spend our money back in the Dubai Economy as leaving Dubai on short breaks required permission from fleet management, and seat availability which did not exist.
As the Master Card advert goes, living in Europe 3000 Euros, pay taxes
50% of the salary, happiness of self and family priceless...
Keep Discovering....
I realy do hope that EK sorts itself out, as I have good friends there who are top quality and deserve a lot more than what they are getting, and they deserve a better treatment than what EK is giving them. The quality and talent of flight deck crews that EK is blessed with, is unfortunately not appreciated by management, and they realy do not deserve the people they have working for them.
I would not be touching EK at present, unless I was jobless, homeless, or looking for a step on a bigger aircraft as a DEC and then hapily move one to less sandy pastures...
If you worked in the UK doing the same type of work for VS or BA you would be getting 4000 GBP Take Home and have more days off.
You would definetly be treated with a lot more respect.
You could even go onto 50% or 75% rosters and pay, which is not an option at EK.
I would not compare British Middland with EK.
For that matter I will not even compare Ryanair, Easy Jet, Jet 2 that some of our colleagues have joined over the last 18 months.
The fact that the Salary is Tax Free does not realy matter as all that counts is how much you take home.
EK pays F Ohs around 3000 GBP.
The accomodation allowance should no be included as most of us who moved to Dubai kept our houses, and most of us chose to keep one of our properties vacant as we needed a place to call home.
Even if you do rent your property out, some months of the year it remains vacant so you do have costs associated with non Dubai property.
The EK schooling allowance is good, although I must admit that I did not have the choice of sending my kids to a public school in Dubai (Not that I would), but back in the UK and any where you come from you have that choice. Public schooling is very good in a lot of places around the world.
Schools in Dubai are good though, we had no problem with JESS.
I would not include over time, because again at VS and BA that changes the salary significantly. People do not join an airline to do over time. If they care about money, they go on contract and get paid loads...
Allowances around the world have been dropping at EK, I remember doing LGWs for 70 quid and when I left they where down to 55 GBP.
It seems that the other airlines have not yet encountered deflation around the world.
All reputable airlines in the UK and in Europe for that matter have a private pension, and they all have private health insurance for their pilots and their families.
The EK Clinic is nothing more than the GP we have in the UK, and I get the same standard of service.
All reputable airlines in Europe allow the use of Jump Seat priviledges, and they allow their employees to be upgraded to a higher class without asking the permision of the Head of State and his mother.
I can live in France and commute to the UK to work, and on my days off I do not have to to ask for permission from fleet management to leave.
I can go into parks with my children with their bicycles as it is allowed, unlike Dubai.
The beaches both in the UK, and in France do not belong to a Sheikh, and I can use them without an EPC card...
My houses in the UK, and in France do not cost 60-70% of what they cost when I bought them.
They cost 200 % more over the last 5 years, and they will continue to grow. This in itself is an extra amount of money that I have and I would not have at EK.
I am not worried about how many thousands of new houses will come on the market, nor am I worried about what George will do in the region, or how many subcontinent people decide to move to Dubai.
More importantly my life does not revolve around Emirates, as I do not live in a very nice company labour camp, and I do not constantly worry about what the new cost neutral policy is going to be.
Emirates policies are an extension of the Emirati view on expatriate workers. We are all "labourers" with a beautification policy to make us believe that we where not. We lived in very nice labour camps, got picked up by company transport, where given a liquor licence and a pilot's club card so that the company could keep an eye on our social life, and where forced to spend our money back in the Dubai Economy as leaving Dubai on short breaks required permission from fleet management, and seat availability which did not exist.
As the Master Card advert goes, living in Europe 3000 Euros, pay taxes
50% of the salary, happiness of self and family priceless...
Keep Discovering....
I realy do hope that EK sorts itself out, as I have good friends there who are top quality and deserve a lot more than what they are getting, and they deserve a better treatment than what EK is giving them. The quality and talent of flight deck crews that EK is blessed with, is unfortunately not appreciated by management, and they realy do not deserve the people they have working for them.
I would not be touching EK at present, unless I was jobless, homeless, or looking for a step on a bigger aircraft as a DEC and then hapily move one to less sandy pastures...
Last edited by formerekdriver; 19th Jun 2006 at 20:20.
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Here's one. They don't take that long to find you know, England being an Island an all that. Some pebbly, some sandy, but they are there. You must be an Ozmate, Watchdog! But if you are having difficulty finding a British beach, try here: http://www.goodbeachguide.co.uk/
EKPilot,
yep you picked me outa the line up -all I have seen here in the mother country is mud so far.
This is kinda what I was referring to
http://www.pbase.com/koca69/image/40416260
(that's me with the beard)
yep you picked me outa the line up -all I have seen here in the mother country is mud so far.
This is kinda what I was referring to
http://www.pbase.com/koca69/image/40416260
(that's me with the beard)
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Jan 06 payscale for an F/O at virgin shows a basic of 44 624. You are then contracted to fly 750 hours at an hourly rate for an F/O of 13.66 which equates to a further 10 245. Basic plus variable equals 54 869. That comes to a gross of 4573 per month.
Shanghai allowance comparison: EK 30 hr layover 82 USD. VS 48 hr layover 285 USD which is approx 2.2 times more per 24hr period.
I have enjoyed working for both airlines but have definately saved more money each month by coming to EK. Financially for me it was the right move and will do until something which pays better comes along.
Rgds.
Shanghai allowance comparison: EK 30 hr layover 82 USD. VS 48 hr layover 285 USD which is approx 2.2 times more per 24hr period.
I have enjoyed working for both airlines but have definately saved more money each month by coming to EK. Financially for me it was the right move and will do until something which pays better comes along.
Rgds.
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Hello all.
I was interested in some info from the EK employed pilots, regarding the fast track system if there is any yet in place with all the DEC being hired.... If any one of u have got info about the required hours to qualify for fast track and also if you do not qualify at the time of joining, can one build his total towards fast track if he/she has any previous command experience.. Thanks.. CHEERS...
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fast track
Thanks EK pilot, Do understand with the aircafts getting delayed coming in there wont be any movement,... But do u have any idea on the requirements on fast track or accelerated command. The latest info i got was that u need to have 8000 hrs tt, and 2500 command time to be eligible for fast track. My query is can one built time while he is flying online with EK if he does not meet the 8000tt criteria. eg he has got 7600 tt. Can he fly the other 400 hrs with EK and be elligible for command.
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Yep, possible..
But the official policy still states that 3 year guys will have priority over fast tracks, so you'll have to wait anyhow...
Then again, seeing the recent developments in upgrade policy, who knows?? It's just a big gamble, so don't let any upgrade lure you to EK, because conditions and requirements change overnight.
MR8
But the official policy still states that 3 year guys will have priority over fast tracks, so you'll have to wait anyhow...
Then again, seeing the recent developments in upgrade policy, who knows?? It's just a big gamble, so don't let any upgrade lure you to EK, because conditions and requirements change overnight.
MR8
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NO you are not allowed to build time once with EK. What you come with is what you maintain with respect to accelerated commands. The whole accelerated command opportunity will likely not be of benefit to those who qualify, in the future. That is just my opinion, based on what has been told to me by those apparently 'in the know' regarding the latest uproar over mostly accelerated guys doing the transition course to the 777. No slag intended on the accelerated guys at all, just that this latest ammendated/revised/abused policy has caused another round of grief to every single airbus F/O and it has become quickly apparent to management.
Policy states that qualified F/O's will be first choice for upgrades, although i agree this has not always been the case. But as i see it, if you were to join today with the hopes of accelerated command it likely won't happen except in exceptional cases, as by the time you qualify there will be many non-accelerated F/O's who will have qualified in the next year and a half. This is not the case on the 777 at present, it is easily the case on the Airbus, but on both types will easily be the case within the next year to year and a half.
Policy states that qualified F/O's will be first choice for upgrades, although i agree this has not always been the case. But as i see it, if you were to join today with the hopes of accelerated command it likely won't happen except in exceptional cases, as by the time you qualify there will be many non-accelerated F/O's who will have qualified in the next year and a half. This is not the case on the 777 at present, it is easily the case on the Airbus, but on both types will easily be the case within the next year to year and a half.
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Mensaboy,
With all due respect, they recently changed the policy. You are in fact allowed to count your time at EK towards meeting the Accelerated Command requirements. I read it myself (can't remember where though
) and I know at least one person who was short a few hundred hours total time, and who now qualifies. In fact, he's in the command programme as we speak.
With all due respect, they recently changed the policy. You are in fact allowed to count your time at EK towards meeting the Accelerated Command requirements. I read it myself (can't remember where though
) and I know at least one person who was short a few hundred hours total time, and who now qualifies. In fact, he's in the command programme as we speak.
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fast track
Mensaboy. Thanks a lot for your post, Things are more clear. Although one can built time with EK but the restriction of policy where one should be employed with EK for 12 months and should clear all progress checks in first attempt still stands. Would u please confirm that. Or is it now that when u make the mark of 800tt u directly go for upgrade with no time limit on period served with EK. Could u please shine some light on this area if u have the info. CHEERS...