Classic RT
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Classic RT
EK flight on transfer from CPDLC to MEL Centre a few days ago. MEL called EK several times with no response. Finally the response comes back "Go ahead good buddy"; no call sign though. Entire content of EK transmissions non-standard and unprofessional. I wonder if anyone can guess the nationality of the pilot? It shouldnt be a surprise; they get enough **** on prune anyway.
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I agree that some of the RT from our colleagues is shockingly bad
I don't know why, it's not hard - it'll get worse though with all these "no speaka da english" new joiners as well
I don't know why, it's not hard - it'll get worse though with all these "no speaka da english" new joiners as well
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EK flight on transfer from CPDLC to MEL Centre a few days ago. MEL called EK several times with no response. Finally the response comes back "Go ahead good buddy"; no call sign though. Entire content of EK transmissions non-standard and unprofessional. I wonder if anyone can guess the nationality of the pilot? It shouldnt be a surprise; they get enough **** on prune anyway.
I didn't do it, but wish I had thought of it.
Personally, I find that US ATC is the most efficient (e.g. ORD) that I've ever experienced even with "non-standard" RT. They must be doing something right.
Now SYD... don't get me started...
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US the most efficient? Seriously? Try getting 20 miles left and right of track with a climb on San Fran HF! You will be in the next FIR before they get back to you... "Read Back!" I rate those useless b@stards up there with Chennai or Kabul! 
I rate those useless b@stards up there with Chennai or Kabul!
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My God you must be as old as me!!!!
Talk about bad, sorry dangerous RT, I had some this morning coming back into DXB from the UAE area guy, and this is one of my pet hates, will someone please explain why Austrailian's have to say the word "TO" when giving level changes, the plonker this morning instructed me to descend "to" 10,000, coming out of MEL last week i got Climb "to" 5000, was that 25000 or altitude 5000.
Piss poor RT and one day it will cause an accident.
Talk about bad, sorry dangerous RT, I had some this morning coming back into DXB from the UAE area guy, and this is one of my pet hates, will someone please explain why Austrailian's have to say the word "TO" when giving level changes, the plonker this morning instructed me to descend "to" 10,000, coming out of MEL last week i got Climb "to" 5000, was that 25000 or altitude 5000.
Piss poor RT and one day it will cause an accident.
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Puff m call
Dearest Puff...as an interested obsever....being Australian and ATC in UAE...
I give you DOC 4444 PANS ATM Chapter 12 12.3 ATC Phrasiologies...
a)Climb (or Descend) followed by
1) TO (level)
2) TO and maintain...
The rest of it is there if you give it a glance...
To sum up, the ATC is following ICAO standard phrasiologies...perhaps you may like to do the same??
I give you DOC 4444 PANS ATM Chapter 12 12.3 ATC Phrasiologies...
a)Climb (or Descend) followed by
1) TO (level)
2) TO and maintain...
The rest of it is there if you give it a glance...
To sum up, the ATC is following ICAO standard phrasiologies...perhaps you may like to do the same??
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Divingduck....
Please... let me just duck out and buy me a copy of said doco.
Bus canuck.... I agree! I think the Yanks (especially ORD) do it quite well.
In particular they way they handle climb and descent instructions...
'Climb and maintain....' , 'Descend and maintain....'
MJB
Please... let me just duck out and buy me a copy of said doco.
Bus canuck.... I agree! I think the Yanks (especially ORD) do it quite well.
In particular they way they handle climb and descent instructions...
'Climb and maintain....' , 'Descend and maintain....'
MJB
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puff m'call, it did cause an accident once, the Flying Tiger 747 approach into Subang in bad wx who was told to " decend two five thousand " ( 2,500' ? ) and ended up in the trees killing all four.
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I seem to recall that the communication misunderstanding in the Tiger accident at KUL was actually the result of the controller saying: "Descend TWO four zero zero ft " and the pilot interpreting it as: "Descend TO four zero zero ft ".
The pilot thought he had a clearance to 400 ft. The controller thought he had issued a clearance to 2400 ft. With QNH set, and no intervening action by the crew, this proved to be fatal.
Largely as a result of that accident, ATC phraseology regarding altitude assignments was changed to long hand - ie "descend to two thousand four hundred ft"
The pilot thought he had a clearance to 400 ft. The controller thought he had issued a clearance to 2400 ft. With QNH set, and no intervening action by the crew, this proved to be fatal.
Largely as a result of that accident, ATC phraseology regarding altitude assignments was changed to long hand - ie "descend to two thousand four hundred ft"
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" decend two five thousand "
as far as australians and r/t go. we trained from the college onwards to follow the requirements laid down in ICAO docs and the relevent rules given to us by the governing body of the FIR in which we work. if you think it is poor r/t practice to follow those rules then perhaps a working group of pilots and atc should get together and partition ICAO and the relevent FIR authorties to get it changed. there are always things that can be improved and if removeing "to" from that part of ICAO docs would improve safety then work out a safety case with all the relevent proof and do something about it. based on what statorblade has said(and i have to agree) removing "to" wouldn't improve the situation. at the same time we should also look at those pilots/atc who don't follow std r/t and do something about them too.
i am curious though. aussies are often called retentive, restrictive etc when it comes to r/t, readbacks, sep and rules.... but pilots are given set speeds, flap settings etc to fly for landing as part of the SOP's issued from the manufacture.... if they dont fly outside these parameters/rules does that also make them retentive, restrictive etc ?????? SOP's for both pilots and ATC are there for a reason lets all try and follow them
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I always wonder why the Nigels sound so puffed-up and stodgy whilst doing something as basic as reading-back a frequency. You get the impression they're trumpeting the arrival of the queen or something. Y'all love hearing yourselves talk.
And by the way, signing-off with "Buh-bye" sounds....gay. Please stop it.
And by the way, signing-off with "Buh-bye" sounds....gay. Please stop it.
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I was at a conference a couple of years ago and the presenter was the head of CASA (Aus regulator). He was pontificating on about how good the Aus ATM system was, in an open discussion a couple of foreign pilots, including me pointed out that Australian ATC was tangibly different to the rest of the world. He was quite put out by this and very defensive. As usual I had not really thought out my argument before opening my mouth, however, I was saved by a Qantas Captain who pointed out that at that time there were 15 pages of differences between Aussie regulations and the ICAO SARPS in the Jepp text, unlike countries like India and the UK who had very few.
One thing I find, is that while the Australian system of aviation is very professional, they do love re-inventing the wheel, creating lots of rules and regulations and basically making things difficult for us dumb jet-jockeys.
Oh and lets not mention Dick Smith
One thing I find, is that while the Australian system of aviation is very professional, they do love re-inventing the wheel, creating lots of rules and regulations and basically making things difficult for us dumb jet-jockeys.
Oh and lets not mention Dick Smith
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Originally Posted by mensaboy
''Roger that, understanded cleared to TWO FIVE OH........... is amiguous, lengthy and downright stupid. (for example, was that a FL or a heading in that readback?)
"..Oka-aaaay, understand cleared to too five oh fer 2 oh 1...."
Originally Posted by mensaboy
''clearance readback, without added phrases and sayings,
READBACKS?
''heading 220, emirates 201"
''climb FL 150, emirates 201"
''contact Bahrain 126.7, emirates 201''
READBACKS?
''heading 220, emirates 201"
''climb FL 150, emirates 201"
''contact Bahrain 126.7, emirates 201''
The 3rd world pilots are equally deserving, let's not forget that. You can hear entire conversations in the 3rd world where a callsign is never mentioned at all, especially by Indian controllers.
Just ignore them when they don't use the callsign and answer when they do, it will slowly teach them. Painful, I know, but it seems to be the only way these twits will get it through their fat heads.
Originally Posted by mensaboy
I won't even enter into a discussion about whether or not its more common amongst americans to totally bastardize RT (especially considering it is their first language), because it is the absolute truth. But I sincerely would like to know why.
"too five OH..." Love it!!!
"Ah roger, okay understand too wun oh is cleared to too five oh for runway one."
Runway ONE?????
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they do love re-inventing the wheel, creating lots of rules and regulations
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That's correct...."Runway One".
Yanks quit caring what the Nigels thought of them about 230 years ago. O'hare has approximately twice the number of a/c movements per year as Heathrow, and 10 out of 10 of the world's busiest airports (by this same standard) in the world are in the U.S. I believe they all depend on that "bastardized" R/T some here are fussing about.
But I'm sure that the R/T experts at such a big fish as EK in the tiniest of ponds (OMDB) could show them how it's done! I myself would simply be riveted hearing what the difference between "Ready for takeoff", and "FULLY ready for takeoff", is.
Buh-bye!
Yanks quit caring what the Nigels thought of them about 230 years ago. O'hare has approximately twice the number of a/c movements per year as Heathrow, and 10 out of 10 of the world's busiest airports (by this same standard) in the world are in the U.S. I believe they all depend on that "bastardized" R/T some here are fussing about.
But I'm sure that the R/T experts at such a big fish as EK in the tiniest of ponds (OMDB) could show them how it's done! I myself would simply be riveted hearing what the difference between "Ready for takeoff", and "FULLY ready for takeoff", is.
Buh-bye!
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while they or any FIR pays my bills i stick to their rules
As I said to the CASA chappie when he was waxing lyrically how the Aus ATM had plans to be the best in the world..
My definition of best, is the ones that are closest to ICAO SARPS and that shares the most standardisation with the rest of the world.
As a pilot we are expected to know and follow everyones rules, variations and idiosyncrasies. In the case of the Aus ones, that was 15 pages worth, that is putting a lot of demand on the average hypoxic, dehydrated, jet lagged, village idiot of a pilot (at least that's what my girlfriend affectionately refers to me as).
Guess you are lucky your control tower or centre does not move and you have only one or two sets of rules to learn, there you are I knew I would eventually find a reason to want to become a controller
This explains a lot....
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Uplock,
Yes, it explains that we have a sense of humor. It's something you aquire when you shed musty, dusty old trappings like monarchies, titles, and Houses of Lords.
Has the queen Knighted any more pop singers lately?
Yes, it explains that we have a sense of humor. It's something you aquire when you shed musty, dusty old trappings like monarchies, titles, and Houses of Lords.
Has the queen Knighted any more pop singers lately?