DXB Tower RT
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The fact emains, ANSA, that you guys simply have somehow to get the message across to your bosses in Abu Dhabi that the rules they make to operate under are grossly inefficient in the traffic densities that are fast becoming the norm every night in Dubai.
A go around costs big bucks, and not just that, with the smell of an oily rag many of us are arriving in Dubai with these days thanks to company cost cutting policies, it can really lead to an 'interesting' situation fuel wise by the time you get back on finals for a second try. The rules you are forced to operate under are leading to unnecessary go arounds. That's a fact. The performance of modern day jets in a go around is such that there is no problem at all allowing them to continue to 200 feet (or even lower) before requiring them to go around.
Sorry if some see this as thread creep, but I have no interest in slanging off at the controllers. I suspect each and every one of them is as frustrated as we pilots are at their having to abide by rules that are simply too conservative.
Bring on the famil flights and many of these problems would disappear within a week or two.
A go around costs big bucks, and not just that, with the smell of an oily rag many of us are arriving in Dubai with these days thanks to company cost cutting policies, it can really lead to an 'interesting' situation fuel wise by the time you get back on finals for a second try. The rules you are forced to operate under are leading to unnecessary go arounds. That's a fact. The performance of modern day jets in a go around is such that there is no problem at all allowing them to continue to 200 feet (or even lower) before requiring them to go around.
Sorry if some see this as thread creep, but I have no interest in slanging off at the controllers. I suspect each and every one of them is as frustrated as we pilots are at their having to abide by rules that are simply too conservative.
Bring on the famil flights and many of these problems would disappear within a week or two.
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Effohx, this is even more thread creep but I want to raise a point you touched on, and that is how much fuel you guys carry. We are more and more often having Emirates aircraft telling us that they can't hold for more than 5 minutes otherwise they will have to divert to their alternate. Almost every night now into Dubai we have some sort of holding. Some nights you may be lucky and sneak through with only a couple of vectors and speed control but surely that is too big a risk to take. Has there been any advice from the company as to how much holding fuel to carry when coming into Dubai in the evening?
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you guys simply have somehow to get the message across to your bosses
Join Date: Nov 2001
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In the UK,a hold of up to 20 mins is regarded as no delay.After that you have to issue EAT's.There is also no such thing as tight on fuel.It's are you declaring an emergency,or get treated the same as everyone else.
ANSA
The biggest problem with all single runway ops is maximum runway
utilisation.The ''Arrogant Tossers'' as you quote are pointing out that it's not efficient as it could be.This causes delays in the air and go-arounds for whatever reason create a lot of hassle.
There are many places in europe that operate with minimum staff,no conflict alert and minimum time off.Don't feel so hard done by,because everyone is short of staff with increasing traffic levels.Even in the UK
ANSA
The biggest problem with all single runway ops is maximum runway
utilisation.The ''Arrogant Tossers'' as you quote are pointing out that it's not efficient as it could be.This causes delays in the air and go-arounds for whatever reason create a lot of hassle.
There are many places in europe that operate with minimum staff,no conflict alert and minimum time off.Don't feel so hard done by,because everyone is short of staff with increasing traffic levels.Even in the UK
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Many true words ....
Hello all,
I am an ATC at Dubai.
In response to the OP's comments regarding the excessive use of terminology demanding expeditious actions, he/she is absolutely correct. I was on the airfield doing an inspection not too long ago and could not believe the amount of this nature of RT being used in situation that not even nearly deemed it necessary.
Reading through this thread, there are many truths, a few stretches of the truth/imagination and a whole bunch of people who need to take a little look around and see the building site (with landing options) for what it is.
In many ways the ATC’s in Dubai are limited to what the regulator has dictated. These dictates are often based on;
1. The construction at the Airport and the associated risk for accident/incident.
2. The difficulty that some Eastern-Block / Russian / [Fill in the Blanks] Aircrews have with the English Language and the (often) performance levels of their aircraft.
3. The increase in the rate of traffic at Dubai and the associated problems caused thereby.
4. The reducing levels of (local) experience based on resignations.
5. [Add more reasons here]
Give Dubai a break, we are working under less than desirable circumstances, and when individuals have had enough and decide to leave, it just gets worse for those of us that remain behind and the knock on effect is invariably passed on to you ...
No big bonuses/pensions here, not many reasons to hang around eh!
Come What May
I am an ATC at Dubai.
In response to the OP's comments regarding the excessive use of terminology demanding expeditious actions, he/she is absolutely correct. I was on the airfield doing an inspection not too long ago and could not believe the amount of this nature of RT being used in situation that not even nearly deemed it necessary.
Reading through this thread, there are many truths, a few stretches of the truth/imagination and a whole bunch of people who need to take a little look around and see the building site (with landing options) for what it is.
In many ways the ATC’s in Dubai are limited to what the regulator has dictated. These dictates are often based on;
1. The construction at the Airport and the associated risk for accident/incident.
2. The difficulty that some Eastern-Block / Russian / [Fill in the Blanks] Aircrews have with the English Language and the (often) performance levels of their aircraft.
3. The increase in the rate of traffic at Dubai and the associated problems caused thereby.
4. The reducing levels of (local) experience based on resignations.
5. [Add more reasons here]
Give Dubai a break, we are working under less than desirable circumstances, and when individuals have had enough and decide to leave, it just gets worse for those of us that remain behind and the knock on effect is invariably passed on to you ...
No big bonuses/pensions here, not many reasons to hang around eh!
Come What May
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Thanks OLDI, the inappropriate use of terminology was my only agenda on starting this thread. But it kinda grew wings.
This forum has real potential for improving (or if used wrongly destroying) the relationship between ATC and pilots in Dubai.
I had standard phraseology beaten into me by a anally retentive Englishman, way back at the start of my career and to be honest he did me a favour.
However, since a previous thread started by an ATCO regarding incomplete pilot R/T calls was made, I make even more effort to try and nail my calls.
It doesn't matter what side of the fence we are on, sometimes it is hard to look past our own perspective. The limits, policies, procedures and frustrations that our organisations thrust on us are never apparent to the person at the other side of a microphone. So lets try and keep it constructive, humorous and don't bite the bait too often.
This forum has real potential for improving (or if used wrongly destroying) the relationship between ATC and pilots in Dubai.
I had standard phraseology beaten into me by a anally retentive Englishman, way back at the start of my career and to be honest he did me a favour.
However, since a previous thread started by an ATCO regarding incomplete pilot R/T calls was made, I make even more effort to try and nail my calls.
It doesn't matter what side of the fence we are on, sometimes it is hard to look past our own perspective. The limits, policies, procedures and frustrations that our organisations thrust on us are never apparent to the person at the other side of a microphone. So lets try and keep it constructive, humorous and don't bite the bait too often.
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GUYS GIVE IT A BREAK..... Dubai is doing just fine, traffic is getting heavier, a lot of the pilots and I mean a LOT of the pilots who fly in the area have't flown in demanding enviroments, (US, Canada, EU) so when they are asked to maintain a certain speed to final fix, either they freeze or don't comply. Finally ATC planning goes to the toilet.
Try not to comply with ATC requirements in other sides of the world an somebody will be on the gate waiting for you, but the HUGE fear on speed, and not to be stabilized makes a lot of guys be very low and slow on approach, so instead of talking crap comply with ATC, learn what your airplane can and can't do, and help the rest of US , were all tired and want to get home fast.
Try not to comply with ATC requirements in other sides of the world an somebody will be on the gate waiting for you, but the HUGE fear on speed, and not to be stabilized makes a lot of guys be very low and slow on approach, so instead of talking crap comply with ATC, learn what your airplane can and can't do, and help the rest of US , were all tired and want to get home fast.
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rus when i started my thread on pilot r/t all i hoped was that i made 1 pilot(hopefully more) take a look at themselves and go back to the basics they were taught and do it right. i'm not saying that you did it wrong in the first place but you said you make more effort to nail your call so thanks. that has a knock on effect so that the guy next to you sees you being professional and (hopefully) will follow your lead, you switch crews and they see it too so on and so forth.
as far as listening to what the pilots say about atc i do the same as you. i may not be doing it wrong but i'll make really sure that i improve in areas that i can. i dont use expidite etc because thats used for when things are going to go to
. same goes for giving you 3000ft decent rate then get you to slow to 250IAS as well. its one or the other as i know you cant do both without turning the plane insideout. most guys are the same as we had good training back home but, just as with pilots, some atc have forgotton or were never taught these basics. i like you will keep plugging away trying to nail it and hope that others follow suit.
i agree with most guys here in that the procedures and circumstances that we operate under both in the center as well as in dubai app/twr are poor at best. the procedures have been designed but folks who last worked in the center when the airspace was overloaded with 700 movements per day. we are nearly double that (1387 busiest day so far i believe) and increasing all the time. on top of that throw in works at dubai and some "unprofessional" companies and you start to see some of the problems we atc/pilots face.
just a couple of points
1) the guys/girls who read this forum are professionals who do a good job. do you really think that joe bloggs who couldn't seperate his arse cheeks with both hands or billy erktnwrejn who doesn't understand that 250IAS means just that not 300IAS is going to get on here to discuss the finer points of atc/flying??
2) i haven't seen any real change either on the airwaves or in the center as a result of the goings on in this forum. sorry. i would love to be proved wrong on that one. hopefully though it is being used as a good place to find out how we ALL can do a better job and understand the pressures that each other is under.
3) each country/airport/center is different. dubai does not have slot times or flow control to make sure that a/c arrive at DESDI/BUBIN at time----. major airports in australia/usa/europe etc work on slot arrival/depature times and enroute flow control. usa has max of 12a/c per sector we have up to 18. eurocontrol has max of 1 conflict point per sector we have 5+ and all the major centers have STCA and MTCA as well as all the other nice little features like electronic strips, handoff function etc etc which we don't. do we handle as many a/c as some other 1st world centers? in raw numbers no. are we as busy as them due to all the above factors and all the others i havn't mentioned? YES.
4) alot of the guys who were in us/aus/euro/uk/sa have come here and are lots busier then back home due to point 3. some handle it better then others. some phrases are overused here by some people. but at least we are all talking about it and trying to understand what each other is going through. lets not try and punish each other with a "this will teach him attitude". if asked to expidite then try and do it and advise if you cant. then take 10 min and go to the tower/app after landing or give then a call on the phone and have a chat to the guys/girls up there and find out the whole story. most are willing to tell you and have a coffee/chat. same for atc. dont give penalty vector/orbit etc unless its for seperation. tell the pilot he missed the requirement and when you have a chance give him the number of work and have a chat to him. a calm talk to let each other understand why they needed to do as instructed will have a much longer lasting, benificial effect then bitching and bleating to each other on the air.
as far as listening to what the pilots say about atc i do the same as you. i may not be doing it wrong but i'll make really sure that i improve in areas that i can. i dont use expidite etc because thats used for when things are going to go to
. same goes for giving you 3000ft decent rate then get you to slow to 250IAS as well. its one or the other as i know you cant do both without turning the plane insideout. most guys are the same as we had good training back home but, just as with pilots, some atc have forgotton or were never taught these basics. i like you will keep plugging away trying to nail it and hope that others follow suit.i agree with most guys here in that the procedures and circumstances that we operate under both in the center as well as in dubai app/twr are poor at best. the procedures have been designed but folks who last worked in the center when the airspace was overloaded with 700 movements per day. we are nearly double that (1387 busiest day so far i believe) and increasing all the time. on top of that throw in works at dubai and some "unprofessional" companies and you start to see some of the problems we atc/pilots face.
just a couple of points
1) the guys/girls who read this forum are professionals who do a good job. do you really think that joe bloggs who couldn't seperate his arse cheeks with both hands or billy erktnwrejn who doesn't understand that 250IAS means just that not 300IAS is going to get on here to discuss the finer points of atc/flying??
2) i haven't seen any real change either on the airwaves or in the center as a result of the goings on in this forum. sorry. i would love to be proved wrong on that one. hopefully though it is being used as a good place to find out how we ALL can do a better job and understand the pressures that each other is under.
3) each country/airport/center is different. dubai does not have slot times or flow control to make sure that a/c arrive at DESDI/BUBIN at time----. major airports in australia/usa/europe etc work on slot arrival/depature times and enroute flow control. usa has max of 12a/c per sector we have up to 18. eurocontrol has max of 1 conflict point per sector we have 5+ and all the major centers have STCA and MTCA as well as all the other nice little features like electronic strips, handoff function etc etc which we don't. do we handle as many a/c as some other 1st world centers? in raw numbers no. are we as busy as them due to all the above factors and all the others i havn't mentioned? YES.
4) alot of the guys who were in us/aus/euro/uk/sa have come here and are lots busier then back home due to point 3. some handle it better then others. some phrases are overused here by some people. but at least we are all talking about it and trying to understand what each other is going through. lets not try and punish each other with a "this will teach him attitude". if asked to expidite then try and do it and advise if you cant. then take 10 min and go to the tower/app after landing or give then a call on the phone and have a chat to the guys/girls up there and find out the whole story. most are willing to tell you and have a coffee/chat. same for atc. dont give penalty vector/orbit etc unless its for seperation. tell the pilot he missed the requirement and when you have a chance give him the number of work and have a chat to him. a calm talk to let each other understand why they needed to do as instructed will have a much longer lasting, benificial effect then bitching and bleating to each other on the air.
