DXB Tower RT
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Over the hill and far away
RE the holding area in the CTA, beleive me you are preaching to the converted, but despite numerous requests from OMDB to have either Holds at Pingo/Ostin or even the lower 2 levels of the Des/Bub released to OMDB the GCAA will not approve it. The only exception is in highly unusual situations and as a temp measure OMDB can use Pingo/Ostin as a hold and even then only 1 a/c, but never as a wx hold.
With ref to speed control, you might want to ask to see the requirements sent by EK ops to ATC with recommended speeds on app, you might see why you aren't kept at 230 kts......it seems the A330/340s need to get to 160kt asap!
Mack, sorry, I wasn't suggesting pilots should dep with less than required Wake sep, it just seems as if some take more than the required wake.
With ref to speed control, you might want to ask to see the requirements sent by EK ops to ATC with recommended speeds on app, you might see why you aren't kept at 230 kts......it seems the A330/340s need to get to 160kt asap!
Mack, sorry, I wasn't suggesting pilots should dep with less than required Wake sep, it just seems as if some take more than the required wake.
Joined: Nov 2001
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
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From: Not sure now
Originally Posted by my hands are tied
With ref to speed control, you might want to ask to see the requirements sent by EK ops to ATC with recommended speeds on app, you might see why you aren't kept at 230 kts......it seems the A330/340s need to get to 160kt asap!
TP
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Blighty
Boeing and their speed schedules, should try Airbus, wayyy less draggy, bloody glider in fact 
.
The main prob with the 330 is that with a heavy aircraft, any tailwind, if you get high, the thing with the Trents won't slow down or go down easily. 340's are much better, more drag.
Regarding Wake Vortex sep, some of you guys should spend a day at Heathrow. Thats how to do it! They get very pissed off if you delay, rightly so.
EGGW
. The main prob with the 330 is that with a heavy aircraft, any tailwind, if you get high, the thing with the Trents won't slow down or go down easily. 340's are much better, more drag.
Regarding Wake Vortex sep, some of you guys should spend a day at Heathrow. Thats how to do it! They get very pissed off if you delay, rightly so.
EGGW
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
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From: UAE
CDG in Paris has 1,400 movements a day with 2 pairs of parallel runways. Dubai has 600 movements a day currently working with 1 runway. ie. Dubai has 600 daily movements per day per runway, while CDG has 350 daily movements per day per runway. I am not a Dubai Approach controller by the way. Hardly a doddle though, so why don't you all try showing some respect for a change.
The 2001 data for CDG:
Peak day 1689 ops / peak hour 125 ops 3 rwys
North set of parallels = 1 x 4200 m + 1 x 2700 m
South set of parallels = 1 x 4200 m + 1 x 2700 m
They are both dependant (384m separated)
Guess the short rwys will be used for smaller acft
If you compare airports, I think you should compare similar layouts etc. Lets say DXB currently single rwy compare with London Gatwick!
My guess would be more calm ATCOs in LGW TWR than the "new" ATCOs in DXB
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
John Doe II I don't know where you got your stats from for CDG but according to a report from Air Transport World July 2005, the annual movements for CDG were 516,457, which is a daily movement figure of 1,414.
I don't know about you but I would have thought that workload would be reduced if you can land your light aircraft on the short runway and the big guys on the long runway, whereas at Dubai the slow guys have to land on the same runway as the quick guys, which surely means the workload is higher.
Thanks for putting me onto Gatwick though as an example because latest available figures show that Gatwick handles 241,489 movements (an annual increase of just 2.8%) or 661 movements a day. Dubai last month had about 19,000 movements for the month, and March is traditionally one of the quietest months for the year (an annualised increase of 14%), or 630 movements a day, all with taxiways closed due to works in progress etc. This also with a high proportion of "interesting" Russian and Eastern operators.
Again I say Dubai is not a doddle, and it is time to show a little respect to the guys and girls who work there.
P.S I just found the latest figures for LGW, and they currently have 245,104 movements a year, that is 671 movements daily. Throw a dyce where exactly did you pluck you +150 figure from ??? If you guys consider Dubai to be a doddle then so is LGW.
I don't know about you but I would have thought that workload would be reduced if you can land your light aircraft on the short runway and the big guys on the long runway, whereas at Dubai the slow guys have to land on the same runway as the quick guys, which surely means the workload is higher.
Thanks for putting me onto Gatwick though as an example because latest available figures show that Gatwick handles 241,489 movements (an annual increase of just 2.8%) or 661 movements a day. Dubai last month had about 19,000 movements for the month, and March is traditionally one of the quietest months for the year (an annualised increase of 14%), or 630 movements a day, all with taxiways closed due to works in progress etc. This also with a high proportion of "interesting" Russian and Eastern operators.
Again I say Dubai is not a doddle, and it is time to show a little respect to the guys and girls who work there.
P.S I just found the latest figures for LGW, and they currently have 245,104 movements a year, that is 671 movements daily. Throw a dyce where exactly did you pluck you +150 figure from ??? If you guys consider Dubai to be a doddle then so is LGW.
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 27th April 2006 at 05:24.
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: uk
ANSA,
I know a Watch manager there.They have days of 700+ and mid 50's an hour.
I have done that single runway job at those traffic levels,and it ain't easy.But you have to get your ass in gear sometimes,otherwise they just sit there wasting fuel.As Seaman Staynes says everyone has to play the game.The operators at Gatwick(most of them) use high speed exits,at high speed.
PS.The CAA's figures for EGKK are 261,292 for 2005.That's a wee bit more than you stated.Using your method that's about 715 a day.So on busy days it's got to be 750+.I'll put my handbag down now.
I know a Watch manager there.They have days of 700+ and mid 50's an hour.
I have done that single runway job at those traffic levels,and it ain't easy.But you have to get your ass in gear sometimes,otherwise they just sit there wasting fuel.As Seaman Staynes says everyone has to play the game.The operators at Gatwick(most of them) use high speed exits,at high speed.
PS.The CAA's figures for EGKK are 261,292 for 2005.That's a wee bit more than you stated.Using your method that's about 715 a day.So on busy days it's got to be 750+.I'll put my handbag down now.
Last edited by throw a dyce; 27th April 2006 at 08:31.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 768
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From: Dubai
Well we have got nicely off the topic here and into comparing who's airport is busiest to justify the use of inappropriate terminology.
Well I guess if you can't beat them.....
ANA, LGW is not a full 24 operation like DXB, due to noise quota's it virtually closes down at night (between 2330-0600) to a trickle of traffic. So any statistics are useless, unless you do a peak hour comparison.
Which brings me back nicely to my original point. Go to LGW and listen to the calm precise ATC, in a high density single runway operation, without the use of expedite, late landing clearance and immediate every 15 seconds.
And when things do go wrong at LGW and there is a go around, it stays calm and precise. In the few go arounds I have had in Dubai, controllers have been insistent on getting a reason for the go-around from us, while we are still in the middle of carrying out a dynamic and busy procedure. The safety issues associated with this are obvious.
Well I guess if you can't beat them.....
ANA, LGW is not a full 24 operation like DXB, due to noise quota's it virtually closes down at night (between 2330-0600) to a trickle of traffic. So any statistics are useless, unless you do a peak hour comparison.
Which brings me back nicely to my original point. Go to LGW and listen to the calm precise ATC, in a high density single runway operation, without the use of expedite, late landing clearance and immediate every 15 seconds.
And when things do go wrong at LGW and there is a go around, it stays calm and precise. In the few go arounds I have had in Dubai, controllers have been insistent on getting a reason for the go-around from us, while we are still in the middle of carrying out a dynamic and busy procedure. The safety issues associated with this are obvious.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
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From: UAE
John Doe II I don't know where you got your stats from for CDG ANSA
Guess I don't have to tell since its a "rumours network" But where can you get precise and reliable statistics 
DXB is H24 while many other airports in Europe with single or multi rwy configurations aren't.
Back to the this thread, point is:
Well said "ruserious"
Guess I don't have to tell since its a "rumours network"
But where can you get precise and reliable statistics DXB is H24 while many other airports in Europe with single or multi rwy configurations aren't.
Back to the this thread, point is:
Go to LGW and listen to the calm precise ATC, in a high density single runway operation, without the use of expedite, late landing clearance and immediate every 15 seconds.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 276
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From: T.C.
Time to throw my two penny worth in. Ex UK, EGKK tower and radar, now Dubai tower and radar. Firstly some of the statements from the pilots about how they will spend as much time on the runway as they want, or do there own vortex etc is prety unproffesional and not helping making a very awkward situation at Dubai worse.
The complaints and requests we get on the R/T here, never happened in the UK, when asked to fly 160kts to 4 DME at EGKK, pilots do it if they can't comply they are broken off and repositioned, fact. When given take off clearance they roll, when told to vacate the runway they expedite, we don't tell inbound crews to expect late landing clearance, it always is late.
The situation at Dubai is awkward, the airport has got too busy too quickly, the procedures are abysmal, and the staffing levels low. Losing 10 controllers this year and we are already short staffed, ATCO's are tired. Think we can all work out how long its going to take to train up the necessary replacements.
Going back to procedures, how about this for a rule. Between landing and departing aircraft we have to apply runway seperation, ie the landing aircraft MUST be over the threshold of the landing runway when the departing aircraft is over the threshold at the upwind end, a full runway length between them, thats 4km. Total crap when trying to run single runway ops, and an indication of why things run smoother at other airports.
By the way if ATCO's don't adhere to these procedures they are suspended, and that can mean re-training, another full practical check, and written and oral test. Too many incidents and you are sacked!!!
Inbound procedures, the UAE have to provide us with 15 or 20 mile seperation in trail between aircraft. Riduculous distance, and I can say that You guys at the UAE centre are doing well to achieve. I agree holding is best, but holds only work if the approach controller can have control over the holds, so when gap sizes change, depending on wether the tower controller needs gaps, the approach controller can bring more off the hold or leave them in it. Simple really.
Good procedures evolve, they don't happen overnight, unfortunaly that his not happening in the UAE, nobody is willing to accept some responsibility and make the changes.
Enough said really.
The complaints and requests we get on the R/T here, never happened in the UK, when asked to fly 160kts to 4 DME at EGKK, pilots do it if they can't comply they are broken off and repositioned, fact. When given take off clearance they roll, when told to vacate the runway they expedite, we don't tell inbound crews to expect late landing clearance, it always is late.
The situation at Dubai is awkward, the airport has got too busy too quickly, the procedures are abysmal, and the staffing levels low. Losing 10 controllers this year and we are already short staffed, ATCO's are tired. Think we can all work out how long its going to take to train up the necessary replacements.
Going back to procedures, how about this for a rule. Between landing and departing aircraft we have to apply runway seperation, ie the landing aircraft MUST be over the threshold of the landing runway when the departing aircraft is over the threshold at the upwind end, a full runway length between them, thats 4km. Total crap when trying to run single runway ops, and an indication of why things run smoother at other airports.
By the way if ATCO's don't adhere to these procedures they are suspended, and that can mean re-training, another full practical check, and written and oral test. Too many incidents and you are sacked!!!
Inbound procedures, the UAE have to provide us with 15 or 20 mile seperation in trail between aircraft. Riduculous distance, and I can say that You guys at the UAE centre are doing well to achieve. I agree holding is best, but holds only work if the approach controller can have control over the holds, so when gap sizes change, depending on wether the tower controller needs gaps, the approach controller can bring more off the hold or leave them in it. Simple really.
Good procedures evolve, they don't happen overnight, unfortunaly that his not happening in the UAE, nobody is willing to accept some responsibility and make the changes.
Enough said really.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 987
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From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Ok this is the last post on movement figures as it is hijacking the thread, but I took offense to the comment about it being a doddle in Dubai. Throw a dyce I used the figures from the Gatwick airport website, and if you are talking about peak days and peak periods, then as Dubai has average daily movements of 630 a day, on some days they have over 700. Just as LGW doesn't have high movements at night, and has the traffic compressed into a short period, Dubai has a couple of extremely busy arrival periods (11.00pm-1am from the West and 4am-6am from the East) and a couple of extremely busy departure periods (2.30-4.30am to the East and 1.30am-3am to the Nth and West). And as posted previously LGW movements are growing by between 2.5% and 4% a year, while Dubai traffic has increased by a minimum of 10% every year for the last 3 years, with the airport being one constant building site, with taxiways shut and runways shut or shortened.
Dubai ATC just like the rest of us, is trying there best to hang in there, and is doing so by there fingernails and so being told that we aren't working any traffic and so should get down and pay homage to the mighty UK controllers cos they have so much more traffic than we do, is a crock to be frank. Every place has it's own pressures and is all relative. How many other ATCO's did the guy have in the tower to help him when he wasn't calm enough for you? How long had he gone without a break? How many times had he tried to say the simple transmission to the semi english speaking pilot before you came on frequency? But no you guys have decided that the guys in the UK and Europe have the hardest job in the world and as such are the best in the world, and we are not worthy in the Middle East.
Dubai ATC just like the rest of us, is trying there best to hang in there, and is doing so by there fingernails and so being told that we aren't working any traffic and so should get down and pay homage to the mighty UK controllers cos they have so much more traffic than we do, is a crock to be frank. Every place has it's own pressures and is all relative. How many other ATCO's did the guy have in the tower to help him when he wasn't calm enough for you? How long had he gone without a break? How many times had he tried to say the simple transmission to the semi english speaking pilot before you came on frequency? But no you guys have decided that the guys in the UK and Europe have the hardest job in the world and as such are the best in the world, and we are not worthy in the Middle East.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 32
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From: UAE
Doddle?
I'm with ANSA on this - unless these very qualified-to-judge drivers are holders of a valid ATC licence (and TCAS doesn't apply 
) at the airport in question, and are intimately familiar with the local 
procedures - then...
please keep your intimations and guesses about our job being a doddle to yourselves. Fly the heading and speed (after all there are 2 of you to manage that task) and have a nice day. Just like Gatwick. Just like anywhere else...
PS: As we ATC are short staffed, those drivers with ATC ratings and validations please feel free to help us out...
) at the airport in question, and are intimately familiar with the local procedures - then...please keep your intimations and guesses about our job being a doddle to yourselves. Fly the heading and speed (after all there are 2 of you to manage that task) and have a nice day. Just like Gatwick. Just like anywhere else...
PS: As we ATC are short staffed, those drivers with ATC ratings and validations please feel free to help us out...
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 987
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From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
JD II I'm very calm thanks. Just find it incredible that jet drivers think that now that they have a TCAS display they are experts in all things ATC. Yes I am ACC and Dubai App/Twr and us work together and rely on each other everyday to keep things safe in the UAE, so when I hear pilots belittling the job my colleagues do (when I see the generally very high standard job they do, in very trying conditions right now), I get my back up and defend them.
So JD II, I am very calmly pissed off at the lack of respect shown on here by some towards fellow Aviation professionals.
So JD II, I am very calmly pissed off at the lack of respect shown on here by some towards fellow Aviation professionals.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 768
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From: Dubai
ANA et al, if you can't take a bit of constructive criticism from other aviation professionals, who do have some experience globally, you are in a pretty sad position, cause that's what reading your posts looks like to me.
Like it or not (and you obviously don't) TCAS is a wonderful situation awareness tool for pilots, that combined with all the other cues we get from our environment, such as radio calls and looking out the windows, tells us remarkably accurately how busy you are.
Our experience elsewhere in the world gives us a benchmark to measure the overall performance of an ATSU and quality of its RT. Hence my initial statement about use of phraseology.
So this will be my last post on the issue, I had hoped that something could be done to reduce the level of unnecessarily emotive and verbose urgency phrases from some controllers in DXB tower, just as a controller recently did regarding poor pilot RT.
Guess I failed.
Like it or not (and you obviously don't) TCAS is a wonderful situation awareness tool for pilots, that combined with all the other cues we get from our environment, such as radio calls and looking out the windows, tells us remarkably accurately how busy you are.
Our experience elsewhere in the world gives us a benchmark to measure the overall performance of an ATSU and quality of its RT. Hence my initial statement about use of phraseology.
So this will be my last post on the issue, I had hoped that something could be done to reduce the level of unnecessarily emotive and verbose urgency phrases from some controllers in DXB tower, just as a controller recently did regarding poor pilot RT.
Guess I failed.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: T.C.
ANSA,agree with your comments, this post is for you and all the rest of the hardworking guys and gals at the centre and Dubai.
Emirates pilots read on, you have a shocking reputation at both EGLL and EGKK. Your R/T is sloppy, words have to be repeated, taxi instructions are read back wrongly and your performance on the runways is, shall I say compensated for. I know for a fact that at EGKK you are NEVER slotted in for departure in a 6 mile gap.The tower controller rings radar and asks for a 7 miler, just using the word EMIRATES.
Stop criticising ATC here, we are doing the best we can, with crap procedures, shortage of staff, and low pay.
To make matters worse, Emirates are actually the BEST operators at the airport in Dubai, perhaps now a few of you "gods" can see what we are dealing with on an everyday basis.
Nobody wants a thread to get into a slanging match, but I reckon ATC in the middle east deserve some respect. I work harder here than I ever did in the UK, you ask a UK ATCO to sit in a busy position for 2 and a half hours without a break, then just get half an hour off, the air would be blue. Things are better in the UK, but not due to the skills of the controller, but because they have excellent procedures, good staffing levels,good equipment and good management support who back them if and when the need arises.
GCAA could learn a thing or two. Only mention what its like in the UK, as thats what I know, sure it is the same in other 1st worls countries.
Emirates pilots read on, you have a shocking reputation at both EGLL and EGKK. Your R/T is sloppy, words have to be repeated, taxi instructions are read back wrongly and your performance on the runways is, shall I say compensated for. I know for a fact that at EGKK you are NEVER slotted in for departure in a 6 mile gap.The tower controller rings radar and asks for a 7 miler, just using the word EMIRATES.
Stop criticising ATC here, we are doing the best we can, with crap procedures, shortage of staff, and low pay.
To make matters worse, Emirates are actually the BEST operators at the airport in Dubai, perhaps now a few of you "gods" can see what we are dealing with on an everyday basis.
Nobody wants a thread to get into a slanging match, but I reckon ATC in the middle east deserve some respect. I work harder here than I ever did in the UK, you ask a UK ATCO to sit in a busy position for 2 and a half hours without a break, then just get half an hour off, the air would be blue. Things are better in the UK, but not due to the skills of the controller, but because they have excellent procedures, good staffing levels,good equipment and good management support who back them if and when the need arises.
GCAA could learn a thing or two. Only mention what its like in the UK, as thats what I know, sure it is the same in other 1st worls countries.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 97
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From: On the pale Blue Dot
Can I just put a bit of perspective on this for my flying colleagues who have never worked a scope. They may think that it’s great in the UK the states etc etc, but have they not noticed how often they are handed off to a new freq when in these areas of the world. The main fact of the matter is number of aircraft handled per controller. I’ll put money on it that in Europe the aircraft per controller on a single frequency is probably less than half what it is here. Now ATC need to keep the picture (Hopefully) and the less aircraft you have on a freq at any one time the easier to keep the picture and sound oh so calm. The most amazing piece of airspace for me is (believe this or not) the Bombay TMA. There you have one controller controlling a piece of airspace 40NM radius with no proper holding fixes and a shed load of aircraft all wanting to do there own thing. That there aren’t more incidents there is truly amazing. Just as a exercise next time it is busy try and work out what call sign belongs to which TCAS target and then work out where you fit into the sequence. Good fun and great for your big picture situational awareness of everybody.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 13
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From: ex OBBI
AirNoServices makes a great point. Trafic numbers are irelevant in the ME, and you cant compare ATC units based on numbers.
It is the poor RT (yes, on both sides), pilots not listening, dodgy english, poor comms, lack of procedures, constantly having to repeat simple instructions (not requests) and having to use double radar separation (in parts of the FIR) because the equipment is inadequate.
The individual workload of the controller is the factor, not just numbers.
We averaged over 700 movements arrving, departing and transiting the FIR over Nov/Dec, this is a quiet time of the year. Summer will be close to 1000 a day and growing as the ME airlines expand.
Some units also do not have the luxury of a planner position, so as well as high levels of RTF we are constantly on the phone coordinating with adjacent units, some of which we do not have direct lines to and have to be transfered through third parties.
Some controllers go to alot of effort to at least make some sort of spacing for A/C eastbound to the UAE, to give our collegues over there at least a fighting chance, others couldnt give a damn.
Teh bottom line is you cant comment on aTC units based purely on numbers, you have to take into consideration all of the management and equipment factors, go there, walk a mile and do the hard yards.
It is the poor RT (yes, on both sides), pilots not listening, dodgy english, poor comms, lack of procedures, constantly having to repeat simple instructions (not requests) and having to use double radar separation (in parts of the FIR) because the equipment is inadequate.
The individual workload of the controller is the factor, not just numbers.
We averaged over 700 movements arrving, departing and transiting the FIR over Nov/Dec, this is a quiet time of the year. Summer will be close to 1000 a day and growing as the ME airlines expand.
Some units also do not have the luxury of a planner position, so as well as high levels of RTF we are constantly on the phone coordinating with adjacent units, some of which we do not have direct lines to and have to be transfered through third parties.
Some controllers go to alot of effort to at least make some sort of spacing for A/C eastbound to the UAE, to give our collegues over there at least a fighting chance, others couldnt give a damn.
Teh bottom line is you cant comment on aTC units based purely on numbers, you have to take into consideration all of the management and equipment factors, go there, walk a mile and do the hard yards.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 987
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From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Ruserious, constructive criticism is fine, and I actually agree that the term expedite is overused here, and waters down its importance for the times you really need it. What I took offence at was the couple of posts by the arrogant tossers belittling the traffic levels in Dubai. The number of aircraft per controller in this part of the world whether talking tower, approach or area, is a lot higher than in Europe and the US, and all this is being done with less advanced equipment at our disposal. I mean how many units in Europe operate these days without any automated conflict alerts, either short term or medium term. We have neither and won't have for probably at least 3 years. We usually have 1 planner available to be used between 4 positions, and if used means we work 2 1/2 hours on 1/2 hour off. Ask our European colleagues how their staffing levels compare. Our traffic levels are increasing at 10-15 % per year, and at the moment is nudging 1200 movements a day, and like our tower, approach and neighbouring FIR colleagues, we are seriously struggling to keep our head above water.
So again Ruserious the constructive criticism from you is duly noted, but the cheap misguided snipes from your colleagues is not. I am guessing these guys are the same ones that block the busy frequency wondering why they are not able to have the straight in runway for SHJ, or why there are delays into Dubai (Hello, it's 11.30pm on a Friday night, there are always delays!). We will try and stay sounding calm, if you guys agree to give us your level passing on first contact, meet ATC requirements, fly the speeds given and generally act in a professional manner. Thank you.
And Buller Boy, the efforts of the guys in Bahrain who try and help us out by getting DB landers abeam or under the over flyers is appreciated. We realise you guys are under the pump and as such can't always put things on a silver platter for us, but what you can do for us is appreciated. I hope most of the UAE guys try and recipricate by putting Bahrain landers under or abeam the overflyers when they can. I know unless the traffic is going off, I try as best I can to help you guys out. Of course a change in prcedures with parallel tracks through BALUS and TUGOS, to split landers from overflyers would be even better but thats another topic. Cheers.
So again Ruserious the constructive criticism from you is duly noted, but the cheap misguided snipes from your colleagues is not. I am guessing these guys are the same ones that block the busy frequency wondering why they are not able to have the straight in runway for SHJ, or why there are delays into Dubai (Hello, it's 11.30pm on a Friday night, there are always delays!). We will try and stay sounding calm, if you guys agree to give us your level passing on first contact, meet ATC requirements, fly the speeds given and generally act in a professional manner. Thank you.
And Buller Boy, the efforts of the guys in Bahrain who try and help us out by getting DB landers abeam or under the over flyers is appreciated. We realise you guys are under the pump and as such can't always put things on a silver platter for us, but what you can do for us is appreciated. I hope most of the UAE guys try and recipricate by putting Bahrain landers under or abeam the overflyers when they can. I know unless the traffic is going off, I try as best I can to help you guys out. Of course a change in prcedures with parallel tracks through BALUS and TUGOS, to split landers from overflyers would be even better but thats another topic. Cheers.
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 29th April 2006 at 12:59.