If not Emirates, then where to ??
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Plovdiv:
The EK contract didn't include a seniroty list, nor excluded DEC's. Read into that whatever you want, they will read it their way.
MR8:
You're applying your point of view, the FO's back in UK will most probably look at it differently..... At least if you accept that your point of view should apply there, you should accept a DEC's point of view here, if you don't want to be accused of applying double standards.
I am not defending DEC's, they act like almost everyone of us would act. It's a fact of aviation that some companies just do it this way. We should persuade them with valuable arguments that our way would be cheaper in the long run. We should ALL stop flying on days off even if it pays a fast buck, in the long run you certainly get less. We should stop flying into discretion, call in sick when fatigued etc. Flights need to be cancelled for lack of crew, then things might change because the incompetent managers will start beeing asked questions and they might turn for our help. We should persuade AS and AAR that they'll find FO's much easier when lowering the requirement to 2500h. These guys would start tomorrow and should be suitable enough. They will need longer to get the 8000h for command, thus wont bitch that quick to change seat, are transferable to the 380 (because they stay longer). Transfer Airbus skippers to the 777 (preferably the only 330 rated) they need about 15 productive days less training than DEC's (+5 less for the only 330 having no 340 conversion). Upgrade the many ready on the Bus to replace them, Bus sims have the capacity, at least more than the 777 for the accelerated command farce. The system would run smoother and CHEAPER (you moron beancounters!!!!)
Bring in other ideas and arguments, but stop lashing out on DEC's who are already here, it's useless.
ttn
The EK contract didn't include a seniroty list, nor excluded DEC's. Read into that whatever you want, they will read it their way.
MR8:
You're applying your point of view, the FO's back in UK will most probably look at it differently..... At least if you accept that your point of view should apply there, you should accept a DEC's point of view here, if you don't want to be accused of applying double standards.
I am not defending DEC's, they act like almost everyone of us would act. It's a fact of aviation that some companies just do it this way. We should persuade them with valuable arguments that our way would be cheaper in the long run. We should ALL stop flying on days off even if it pays a fast buck, in the long run you certainly get less. We should stop flying into discretion, call in sick when fatigued etc. Flights need to be cancelled for lack of crew, then things might change because the incompetent managers will start beeing asked questions and they might turn for our help. We should persuade AS and AAR that they'll find FO's much easier when lowering the requirement to 2500h. These guys would start tomorrow and should be suitable enough. They will need longer to get the 8000h for command, thus wont bitch that quick to change seat, are transferable to the 380 (because they stay longer). Transfer Airbus skippers to the 777 (preferably the only 330 rated) they need about 15 productive days less training than DEC's (+5 less for the only 330 having no 340 conversion). Upgrade the many ready on the Bus to replace them, Bus sims have the capacity, at least more than the 777 for the accelerated command farce. The system would run smoother and CHEAPER (you moron beancounters!!!!)
Bring in other ideas and arguments, but stop lashing out on DEC's who are already here, it's useless.
ttn
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ttn,
completely agree with you. I am against the company taking in DEC's, but can't hold anything against an individual taking up this opportunity.
In case AS or AAR can't live with 2500hr F/O's, why not make them S/O's; you would be able to find people as S/O, suitable for the long range operations. A cheaper way of getting 3 man flightdecks on several flights which are now operated to the limit with 2 pilots. Also, like you say, these people would need at least about 5 years before they have 6000hrs for command. Would solve the F/O shortage and make operations cheaper - why didn't they think about that one yet???
MR8
completely agree with you. I am against the company taking in DEC's, but can't hold anything against an individual taking up this opportunity.
In case AS or AAR can't live with 2500hr F/O's, why not make them S/O's; you would be able to find people as S/O, suitable for the long range operations. A cheaper way of getting 3 man flightdecks on several flights which are now operated to the limit with 2 pilots. Also, like you say, these people would need at least about 5 years before they have 6000hrs for command. Would solve the F/O shortage and make operations cheaper - why didn't they think about that one yet???
MR8
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ttn
My point was more to do with EkWifes' statement that she knew what she was coming to.
She would be correct if she is pointing out that she expects constantly moving goalposts etc. But I don't think she was. Presumably she also knew that they wouldn't be the most popular animal on the farm either.
Having said that, not much changed from around '95 until about a year after the arrival of CK. We were paid fairly, paid just about enough and the non contractual seniority system worked well. EK became an airline that people aspired to work for. Can't say that now.
And if DECs and their wives put themselves up for a lashing, which they do, then people are going to lash.
As individuals they are, with some exceptions, good guys, as a concept they are despised. That's just the way it is.
My point was more to do with EkWifes' statement that she knew what she was coming to.
She would be correct if she is pointing out that she expects constantly moving goalposts etc. But I don't think she was. Presumably she also knew that they wouldn't be the most popular animal on the farm either.
Having said that, not much changed from around '95 until about a year after the arrival of CK. We were paid fairly, paid just about enough and the non contractual seniority system worked well. EK became an airline that people aspired to work for. Can't say that now.
And if DECs and their wives put themselves up for a lashing, which they do, then people are going to lash.
As individuals they are, with some exceptions, good guys, as a concept they are despised. That's just the way it is.
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Any DEC who once belonged to a previous airline that had a seniority list,and upgrade policy knows exactly what they have done by coming to EK on whichever scale they are on.24-30 K whatever.TCK put this flawed policy in place against all advice,it was divide & conquer from the start.
Each to their own,however seeing DECs here from my old airline who were members of the union and fought ANY attempt to degrade their Ts &Cs then,yet alone mention DEC is laughable hypocrisy.Some DECs are very able some are extremely average operators,yet feel thy ae a credit to EK and CRM nightmares,it is this lack of standardisation in the DECs that will be the Achilles heel.I see it time and again in the simulator and on line.
The DEC programme was not temporary as we were told,it is a FACT of EK life now but has IMHO been a huge mistake in the damage it has done to the workforce which is even more uncohesive than it was before.EK has lost credibility we are guns for hire in a dog eat dog airline that is sliding rapidly.
It is very man for himself(herself EK wife),sad but very true.Time will tell but EK is the loser in the long run for self inflicted damage.
The pub awaitsQB
Each to their own,however seeing DECs here from my old airline who were members of the union and fought ANY attempt to degrade their Ts &Cs then,yet alone mention DEC is laughable hypocrisy.Some DECs are very able some are extremely average operators,yet feel thy ae a credit to EK and CRM nightmares,it is this lack of standardisation in the DECs that will be the Achilles heel.I see it time and again in the simulator and on line.
The DEC programme was not temporary as we were told,it is a FACT of EK life now but has IMHO been a huge mistake in the damage it has done to the workforce which is even more uncohesive than it was before.EK has lost credibility we are guns for hire in a dog eat dog airline that is sliding rapidly.
It is very man for himself(herself EK wife),sad but very true.Time will tell but EK is the loser in the long run for self inflicted damage.
The pub awaitsQB
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I have 14000 hrs 4500 command 767 and im stuck on the friggin Airbus with no future ,no command in the forseeable future and no scores less than fours ,
and im not allowed to leave and come back , but believe me i am leaving ......................
and im not allowed to leave and come back , but believe me i am leaving ......................
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...interesting that nowadays FO`s are deciding if a commander is good or not....Maybe EK should ask some of you guys selecting DEC`s 
. Allways the same, there is always a conspiration theory...
....
. Allways the same, there is always a conspiration theory... ....
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You could say that you are a DEC posing as a First Officer who has spent the last few months posting platitudes about aging DECs in an attempt to make yourself appear respectable.
And why not?
A DEC from a fading European non EEC flag carrier (but not your flag). Spoken highly of, by the way.
Need I say more?
And why not?
A DEC from a fading European non EEC flag carrier (but not your flag). Spoken highly of, by the way.
Need I say more?
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I have to agree with EKwife. We all say we wouldn't do it, but given a chance to go DEC onto a 777 or Airbus we would all do it. To increase our pay, job security and marketabilty of ourselves.
Emirates is there to do business and make money and will do whatever it takes, hire whoever it wants to sit in the left seat if they think safety is being compromised. It is their airline and we are all expates here.
Not to defend them, I personally think they have not given the current FO's enough credibility in doing the job from the other seat. The day when we get away from this BS ..."lowest common denominator" and see that some of our FO's were very experienced Captains, or perhaps very experiences FO's from the States, Canada or wherever and can fly circles around some captains, then only will the upgrades happen.
I hear that and it irks me. I am not a local cadet pilot that started flying yesterday.
Its funny if someone left here and went back to europe and got a DEC on a 737, flew 3 years could come back here and be worthy of the left seat.
Emirates is there to do business and make money and will do whatever it takes, hire whoever it wants to sit in the left seat if they think safety is being compromised. It is their airline and we are all expates here.
Not to defend them, I personally think they have not given the current FO's enough credibility in doing the job from the other seat. The day when we get away from this BS ..."lowest common denominator" and see that some of our FO's were very experienced Captains, or perhaps very experiences FO's from the States, Canada or wherever and can fly circles around some captains, then only will the upgrades happen.
I hear that and it irks me. I am not a local cadet pilot that started flying yesterday.
Its funny if someone left here and went back to europe and got a DEC on a 737, flew 3 years could come back here and be worthy of the left seat.
Last edited by readytocopy; 20th Mar 2006 at 05:52.
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I had asked this question some time ago, where does the real problem lie at EK? Is it the housing, EK pays for it and the bills. Sure it might not be the place you desire but living in a villa for free you can sock away a lot of money.
Schedule, does it suck? Over worked and under paid? DEC's , sure I can relate to that.
My opinion, tax free place to live and a good provident fund you can certainly retire. Sure it's not like it used to be but it seems to be like that every where. EK seems a lot more stable than some other places in Europe and North America.
You can travel to Europe easily or where ever you want to go. Schools seem pretty good and a new emerging city in the world. So can someone please explain why EK is messed up.
I have an interview coming up and I see more postives in EK than negatives. I just want to make a few bucks like everyone else and fly some good equitment and travel around with the wife every once and a while to some new spots.
Schedule, does it suck? Over worked and under paid? DEC's , sure I can relate to that.
My opinion, tax free place to live and a good provident fund you can certainly retire. Sure it's not like it used to be but it seems to be like that every where. EK seems a lot more stable than some other places in Europe and North America.
You can travel to Europe easily or where ever you want to go. Schools seem pretty good and a new emerging city in the world. So can someone please explain why EK is messed up.
I have an interview coming up and I see more postives in EK than negatives. I just want to make a few bucks like everyone else and fly some good equitment and travel around with the wife every once and a while to some new spots.
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Buzzmeister,
it seems you didn't make your homework, you must have a lousy job to give it up just like that.
There are so many negative stories on pprune but you people do not listen anyway after 6 months or even earlier you will regret it, can't wait to read your posts then.
it seems you didn't make your homework, you must have a lousy job to give it up just like that.
There are so many negative stories on pprune but you people do not listen anyway after 6 months or even earlier you will regret it, can't wait to read your posts then.
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Buzz
For sure things aren't what they used to be but you'll realise it's the same bunch of guys posting the same negativity constantly. We all have our gripes here, and believe me there are many, but not so bad that everyone is leaving on mass.........at least not yet anyway!
What surprises me is that the regular 'bad boys' are still in EK and STILL posting month after month after month. Guess it can't be THAT bad then after all, eh!
Harry
For sure things aren't what they used to be but you'll realise it's the same bunch of guys posting the same negativity constantly. We all have our gripes here, and believe me there are many, but not so bad that everyone is leaving on mass.........at least not yet anyway!
What surprises me is that the regular 'bad boys' are still in EK and STILL posting month after month after month. Guess it can't be THAT bad then after all, eh!
Harry
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I read and can pass over most comments here, but I simply couldn't resist replying to this gem
Maaaate, let me assure you that you're in for a big disappointment in that department. Getting your wife on a flight just about anywhere on the EK network is damn near impossible unless you're willing to line up cap in hand for days on end - with all the other staff who are trying to do the same thing. (You may not be aware that the jump seat for the missus, even when you're the operating pilot, is simply out of the question, with no exceptions.)
And staff travel is (the?) one area that EK does respect seniority. As a new joiner, you and your wife will be in line after everyone with a start date before yours.
I have a mate who once worked as a recruiting officer in the Air Force. I remember him saying to me that all prospective recruits had one thing in common. They simply tuned out to any information he offered them that was in any way negative. When he told them the job would be disruptive to their home life etc, they simply didn't hear him.
He said thay all had one other thing in common. To a man, twelve months later, they'd be screaming that they hadn't been warned about all those things he told them about before they signed on the dotted line and took Lizzie's shilling.
...and travel around with the wife every once and a while to some new spots.
And staff travel is (the?) one area that EK does respect seniority. As a new joiner, you and your wife will be in line after everyone with a start date before yours.
I have a mate who once worked as a recruiting officer in the Air Force. I remember him saying to me that all prospective recruits had one thing in common. They simply tuned out to any information he offered them that was in any way negative. When he told them the job would be disruptive to their home life etc, they simply didn't hear him.
He said thay all had one other thing in common. To a man, twelve months later, they'd be screaming that they hadn't been warned about all those things he told them about before they signed on the dotted line and took Lizzie's shilling.
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Buzz
Buzz, its really all about expectations.
Ek may not be what it was, but I wonder what airline is. From my perspective in the USA, we are on a spiral of less pay and security for what we do.
Perhaps SIA is a better deal , if you have the 50000 usd to get the job.
Cathay, great company, and good pay . Good luck getting it. For us in the USA,options are limited. Everything you make is taxed, and your pension is probably on life support if not dead already.
A first year Ek F/O makes about 5ooo/month.by my estimation, based on where you live(US State) I would have to make 7200 usd/month- not including houseing to see that type of take home pay.- not including houseing. Starting pay at Continental Airlines is about 3000 usd, less tax.In 7 years one would make 737 Captain, and get about 140/hr.- thats 10500 usd gross, or about 7500 usd take home pay.
Now I know you are not from the USA, but the general principle applies.
Again, was the job better in the past- yes. I would have loved to fly long haul for Pan Am. Is Ek the job for you? Only you can judge that. But, based on the trend everywhere, it is one of the better ones. The comments that even the complainers are still around holds weight.
That doesn't mean that Ek is perfect, it just means that they didn't apply to the better jobs- didn't get called to the better jobs...or ,as I think- they couldn't find that elusive better job because it doesn't exist.
Ek may not be what it was, but I wonder what airline is. From my perspective in the USA, we are on a spiral of less pay and security for what we do.
Perhaps SIA is a better deal , if you have the 50000 usd to get the job.
Cathay, great company, and good pay . Good luck getting it. For us in the USA,options are limited. Everything you make is taxed, and your pension is probably on life support if not dead already.
A first year Ek F/O makes about 5ooo/month.by my estimation, based on where you live(US State) I would have to make 7200 usd/month- not including houseing to see that type of take home pay.- not including houseing. Starting pay at Continental Airlines is about 3000 usd, less tax.In 7 years one would make 737 Captain, and get about 140/hr.- thats 10500 usd gross, or about 7500 usd take home pay.
Now I know you are not from the USA, but the general principle applies.
Again, was the job better in the past- yes. I would have loved to fly long haul for Pan Am. Is Ek the job for you? Only you can judge that. But, based on the trend everywhere, it is one of the better ones. The comments that even the complainers are still around holds weight.
That doesn't mean that Ek is perfect, it just means that they didn't apply to the better jobs- didn't get called to the better jobs...or ,as I think- they couldn't find that elusive better job because it doesn't exist.
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MTOW
(You may not be aware that the jump seat for the missus, even when you're the operating pilot, is simply out of the question, with no exceptions.)
Is this done in any airline?
Is this done in any airline?
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To all the blokes whinging, no good posting your problems here as pprune will not get you another job. Better to get that job where the grass is definitely greener and come back with some positive posts. You can't have it all ie. tax free pay, housing, education, P Fund, wide body aircraft etc AND still whinge about this place. I have posted a few opinions of the place and so have others. Bottom line is get a piece of paper out and draw a line down the middle. On the left, pros, on the right, cons. Simple really. Does it all add up at the bottom of the sheet? If yes, stay, if no, then start getting your CVs out. Man, can this be any simpler!!!! 