Requirements for seperation: why do pilots ignore them

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Please all you pilots out there could you explain this one to me?

Over the last few days have issued requirements to pilots for seperation only to have 90% of them not complied with. The excuses ranged from "we couldn't see the other guy so we didn't bother complying as didn't see the need" to "cant you move the other a/c" the classic "sorry we hoped you wouldn't notice" and my favorite " we thought it was optional"

Now I dont know about you but if someone said to me be at this level at this point so you dont have a TCAS RA/hit with someone else I would move heaven and earth to do it. Are these pilots just so stupid that they shouldn't be given sharp instruments let alone fly a plane or do they truely think they are the only a/c in the sky and they can do whatever they want??

The worst offenders were QTR followed by GFA then the cargo UAE planes.

What would it take for these guys to take their job seriously? Its also interesting to note that these are the same pilots that are complete idiots when it comes to R/T.

Please explain this to me as i just dont understand how they can be that unproffesional.

[chinawladi]

It might be like the Indians in their Echo's: They just can't do any better.
But I suspect it's more like "... I couldn't care less...." because all these guys get shafted from all sides day in and day out.
As you said "very unproffesional" - or is it unprofessional?

[boeingdriverx]

give us the source of your information, so we can judge ourself.

a very proud Gulf Air pilot.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

boeingdriverx not quite sure what you mean.

Are you wanting that information while flying(ie what the other traffic is) to see whether it is a genuine requirement or if its worth meeting the requirement? or are you refering to the 90% and how I arrived at that figure?

If its the first I can only speak for myself in that everytime I give a requirement for seperation I give the requirement as well as the traffic you are being seperated from. I make sure the requirement can be realistically met and if not then use another form of seperation. Others just give you the requirement and expect you to comply and if you cant then do the same and find another way. ATC don't give seperation requirements just for fun, we give it due to traffic so that seperation is maintained and we can all go home at the end of the day.

If its the second point, on my last shift 13 requirements were issued for seperation from other a/c and 11 times the pilots failed to comply and failed to advise me. Even when asked multiple times to confirm that they would make it they they replied that they would make it with ease etc etc then failed miserably to meet it. They consisted of 6xQTR 3xGFA 2xUAE cargo. This is just the failure to comply when other a/c are involved. I lose count of the ammount of times per shift that a/c fail to meet the height requirements on the STARS and the issued height requirement at DUMPI.

As always its not all pilots who do this and as with the R/T issue it is only a small portion of pilots that are unable to fly in a safe and professional manner. But when those pilots make up a large portion of your extra workload with their poor airmanship it tends to stand out. As a pilot it also must concern you that the other a/c that I am giving requirements to so they dont come near you, cant be bothered complying with them and is not only putting my job on the line but you life and the life of all on board at risk.

Hope this helps.

[Soft Altitude]

Ali Bin Somewhere,
Who knows, a little refresher on ATC procedures, back to basics, would not hurt from time to time.
I fly into Dubai very often as a GF pilot(so I might be one of the culprits ),
and let me tell you that I enjoy the clear instructions and precise vectoring we get there 98% of the time, however, sometimes it seems that you guys are unaware of aircraft or human performance (which I just can not believe) like how many miles a medium or a heavy jet needs to decelerate or loose height.
One of the worst instructions we have to comply with is:"Increase rate of descent and reduce speed to ... kts" sometimes the voice gives away like we are expected to do it "NOW".
Then, please correct me if I am wrong but once I get a heading and an altitude, I am not flying the SID or the STAR anymore, therefore I will not comply with an SID or STAR altitude or speed restriction, I mean I am not supposed to or am I ?
The other day I had an instruction to turn left direct RANBI after a 30L dep out of Dubai, because of flight plan leg sequencing of the FMGS, it took us several seconds(!) to get the plane fly to RANBI, in order to have one of your colleagues in the next second almost yelling at us:"Are you turning left to RANBI as instructed ONE MILE AGO !!!!!"
Come on ! At that stage we are flying 4NM/minute, "one mile ago" was 15 seconds ago, please be a little bit more patient, it could have been an FMGS failure, which could have "delayed" somewhat the execution of the ATC instruction.

[LDG NO BLUE]

Hi Ali,
I'm a GF pilot and I understand your frustation. Except from Dxb and Auh, it is very seldom that ATC is gonna give us speed control. Therefore, we have to do our own "energy management" the best we can, playing with the speed.
When ATC gives me speed control, I follow it. Some collegues don't.
However, I have an understanding for why some guys are reluctant to follow certain clearances. Some factors decrease the confidence in the system:
- you call 2, 3 times until you get a response,
- we have to keep prompting for further descend and climb, while there is no other conflicting traffic,
- please switch off the red bars if you line us up on the active rwy,
- should I mention radar vectors in BAH?
I think, or I hope, that gradually, both sides will be doing a more professional job.
I heard some chew ups a couple of times in some other frequencies in Europe:
"xxx 123, if you cannot keep 220 kts, I will have to take you out of the sequence."
"xxx 123, next time you reduce the speed you have to advise me, there is traffic behind you with minimum separation".
Cheers.

[ATCO1962]

Hi Ali,

I work next door to you but don't find non-compliance with instructions so bad here. Having said that, we have awful problems with people either not listening at all or listening but not comprehending/reading back. I don't mind if the radio's hard to hear and pilot's tell me that, but don't come back half a dozen times with variations of clearances I've issued without a good excuse. These days, we haven't got time for that nonsense.

I also have the dubious privilege of sitting next to controllers who issue less-than-stellar instructions and you can hear the deafening silence of our pilot bretheren who are completely underwhelmed by such clearances, so I can well understand the view from the other side of the radar screen.

On another note, as a matter of professional pride, I have to point out that every controller should spell separation correctly; after all, it is what we're paid to provide!

[vfenext]

This might also be a good time to bring up the fact that the majority of ATCO's in the Gulf don't seem to know the difference between min clean and min approach speed. Some day I am going to reduce to min approach when asked and see how doing 140kts at 60nm screws up your sequence. It cuts both ways and you can't have it every way. Also while we are axe grinding most jets can either go down OR slow down but they can't effectively do both together. Make up your minds when asking to expedite descent and reduce speed cause one of them ain't gonna happen.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Sorry no excuse for my bad spelling. But you will be pleased to know I separate much better then I spell.
Yes I have to agree wholeheartedly that there are some very average controllers who give some horrible instructions like speed and rate of decent at same time etc etc. They seem to have no understanding that it takes alot of time to turn an a/c or slow it down. So a refresher course on a/c performance would be a great thing.
Soft Altitude yes you are right. When you are on a vector you are not flying the STAR/SID but once given own nav and and resume star then you have to comply. As I said before there are some very average instructions given but by the same token I don't really believe that it takes 50nm to slow from 290ias to 250ias as often seems the case when pilots feel we are unfairly delaying them.
LDG NO BLUE I do see that there are some problems with confidence in the system but we have the same problems as you. Like the QTR pilot who called with the phrase "center morning" no callsign no level. When asked who was calling the response was "its QTR here" no number no level . Asked which QTR as there were 3 inbound at the same time got the callsign code tracking estimate destination, but still no level. Eventually got level out of him but for the rest of the flight it took at least 3 calls to get him to listen/respond. And this was one of the pilots who missed the requirement by 6000+ ft..... would you be confident trying to control a/c who were that bad? As far as prompting for decent/climb there are not just a/c restrictions but there are also airspace restrictions. Often the delay in giving you what you want is not evident but in reality we are working hard with co-ordination and strip board trying to get what you want before you ask for it. One of the other threads discussed up the whole flightdeck visits etc but it would also help if you guys came into the center to see what it is like for us. You would learn alot and see just how busy it is.
ATCO1962 spelling issues noted and will try harder in the future.
But still no real answer as to why requirements seem optional to some pilots??

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

You are right, some ATCO's don't understand the limitations of aircraft and need to be told so if they need to get you down, they need to let you out on the speed, or they keep you going at your current speed and descent rate and give you extra track miles to compensate for the increased ground speed due to the high winds you are still in. Either way though, you are flying the plane, and I would expect that if I give you something you find difficult or impossible to do (which I try not to do), that you would tell me.

What Ali is getting at is a very serious issue here in the Gulf. I very nearly had a very nasty one over Sharjah the other day between a QTR A330 and a BAW 747. The BAW 747 was maintaining FL380, and so the QTR out of Doha, eastbound to India somewhere, was initially climbed to FL370. With approximately 6 minutes to the cross and the QTR approaching FL350, I asked the pilot what his climb rate was and he told me 1000ft a minute. I asked him if he could maintain that climb rate until maintaining FL390 (his requested level). He said he could, so he was climbed to FL390 with the requirement to maintain a rate of climb of 1,000 ft or more until maintaining FL390. At FL376 he stopped climbing. He went 4 paints, about 15 seconds with no change in altitude. I asked him his climb rate and without even sounding apologetic he happily replied, 300 ft a minute. When queried about the requirement he replied again very nonchalantly that "well we are struggling to climb now so we had to reduce our rate of climb".

Now on this same sector we quite often have 5 or 6 aircraft on vectors for sequencing into Dubai, so we are not able to vigilantly monitor the meeting of requirements as we would like to. Because of this we need pilots to meet the requirements given to them, and if unable to make them to tell us in a timely manner. Is this an unreasonable expectation????

BTW, on having a new A-hole torn for him, the QTR amazingly found the ability to climb again and I maintained a standard, but after lots of sweating. Just not good enough. Not here or anywhere else. But if QTR (and yes GFA) are wanting to be world class airlines then they need to lift their standards dramatically.

[4HolerPoler]

Great thread this communication is productive; whilst not all of the regions pilots frequent this site, I'm sure that this type of interaction will achieve far more than the old inter-agency letter writing which never achieved much.

4HP

[Speedbrake Lever]

Hey Lads

Go ahead with ......... the perhaps correct attacking .....

but please be more specific

like A./C Type not just airline name

Some of us are trying to clean up the Act

so specifics will help

S.L. .............. A G.T. Guy whom i'm sure you know

[popay]

Ali Bin Somewhere, well I am very sorry to hear about QR (but somehow it doesn't surprise me) not complying with the instructions, given by you. To answer your question: Your issued instructions are a MUST and nothing else and if not able to comply a pilot must inform ATC. Anything else is pure unprofessionalism. In my opinion you guys should treat it accordinly and inform the airline, which hopefully will take appropriate action.
Cheers.

[ATCO1962]

OK, here's something specific. Martinair (B742s) from SHJ eastbound A791. They are often heavy (that much we know because they're long haul to Asia with lots of fuel and cargo) When asked if they can make their requested cruising level by the boundary with Tehran, they almost always respond in the affirmative, only to find themselves several thousand feet below what Tehran is expecting them at and meaning a hurried call (read-apology) to the Tehran controller. This happens about once a shift cycle.

Now I know some of those Classics haven't got the kind of kit that some of the newer types have but please, if you have any doubt about your ability to make a level or to comply with any instruction whatsoever, please be honest enough to just say "Unable to comply" or words to that effect. I'd much rather make an extra call to co-ordinate or have the chance to make alternative separation arrangements than have to endure a near miss or do the sweating that ANSA alludes to.

For those of you who are already giving us precise and honest feedback(you know who you are), it's a pleasure doing business with you.

Safe flying!

[boeingdriverx]

Dear Ali,

Thank you for clarification. I was interested in knowing how you arrived to these figures...

I really think that both sides (Pilots / ATCOs) have their issues, and the best is to discuss it like we do it now. Again, we are all humans and we make errors sometimes because we get fatigued / bored. So please get the whole picture here again.

Few months ago, some AUH controller started a very good thread here on pprune about AUH procedures. And till today I try to keep these "guidelines" in mind (like stating your callsign when you vacate the runway in AUH). Communication is the way!

So if we were in a perfect world what will be high on your wish list Ali?

cheers
BD

[LDG NO BLUE]

Report it!

Dear Ali and al,
I would be grateful if ATC would report these non-compliances to the company, regulatory agencies. That way, corrective measures can be taken.
Please, report it. No kidding.
As for desced and reduce, I understand that in major hubs, aircraft performance is sacrificed in detriment of traffic flow. Sometimes you have to open speedbrakes to get the cleared speed and altitude, and later you may find yourself high on profile. I have no problem with that, I don't ask why and I will not ask for further descend.
Quoting Doc 4444 PANS-ATM- 4.6.3.4:
"Instructions for an aircraft to simultaneously maintain a high rate of descend and reduce its speed should be avoided as such manoeuvres are normally not compatible."
Cheers.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

boeingdriverx the 2 top things on my wishlist are as follows


1) Callsign and level (if maintaining) or level passing and assigned level (if on climb/decent). If you give me more then that I wont complain, we dont need it but I wont complain but callsign and level is the min required for EVERY frequency change.

2)Either comply with the instruction given or tell me you cant. It doesn't matter how insignificant it seems to you, but the requirement is there for a reason and for safety reasons I need to know if you cant do it. It makes my job much easier and your flight lots safer if you are honest and tell me you can't comply. The earlier you tell me the more time it gives to do something else instead of a last min panic to make sure we dont have a break down of separation.

There are other things but we are human and no matter how good we are there will always be minor things that we ALL ( including ATC) do either incorrectly or in a way that you are not used to.


LDG NO BLUE yes I agree that we should be putting in incident reports and there is no excuse for not doing so. From a practical point of view there are 2 points to consider.

1) It takes about 20min to do a report. I had 11 that I should have done the other night and that was not including the height requirements on the STAR and at DUMPI so thats 220min. I get 90 min on break and 90min planner (assuming I am not being used on position to help when its busy) out of a 9 hour shift. Not sure how to fit it in.

2) Reports in the past have resulted in the grand total of nothing being done. Not blaming the safety folks here or at airlines but with pilot shortages in all the airlines would you ground/retrain someone for not making a requirement when no TCAS or break down in separation occured??

I am the first to admit that there are some very poor instructions given when it comes to sequencing and I cringe whenever I hear one being given. I would just say to you if presented with one of these instruction and you cant do it, tell the controller as sometimes that is the only way they learn.

Thanks to you all for replying. Hopefully it will help both pilots and ATC to improve the way we work.

[Qatari515]

A very intresting post indeed....

I have always wondered where this communication barrier between ATC and pilots came from while it is all so easy and simple.

I do have to say that all this non existing knowledge causes a lot of frustration and misunderstanding from both sides.

I have the impression that ATC is the little " forgotten" brother of our otherwise so professional world of aviation. ATC discipline is often far far far away, read backs are forgotten and often replaced by a much easier " roger".
We should never forget how important a correct phraseology is, vertainly in an environment like the Gulf where people from all of the world meet eachother in the air.

TCAS aswell has contributed to a false sense of security from the pilots. Who needs ATC when you have TCAS?????

WRONG: IFALPA actually issued a safety bulletin (O6SA B001) regarding TCAS where they say that in no case whatsoever TCAS should be used to arrange your own separation as a pilot. This is not how TCAS was designed. It is there to increase your awareness as a pilot and to get you out of the S**T when you are allready in it up to your nose! Nothing more nothing less.

So as a pilot ATC instructions should be followed at all times. So what if you have your doubts about the reasons? Just do it, you are only staying at the safe side of things.

We all know that as a pilot it is VERY frustrating if an ATC controller screws up your whole descent profile and your energey management plan gets thrown out while levelling off at 1500ft at 210 kts 40 NM on final. It is annoying and it feels wrong!
But its not up to us to decide there to disregard ATC instructions. Follow them , stay safe and keep in the back of your head that this was not how you planned things but hey, ATC intsructions! And most of the times I am sure they will have their reasons why to do things this way.

example: that bloody DUMPI at FL220 when coming from UAE descending into OTBD!!!! It frustrates everybody incredibly. But there must be a reason for it. Maybe if ATC would be given the opportunity to publish a reason as well as a temporarily notam I am sure a lot of people would feel much better!

[Hay Day May Day]

I'm ATC too..

Try to file an ATC Occurrence Report every time an airline is not complying with an instruction. By time it might help since the regulator will receive an overview and statistics.

Ok a lot of paperwork but ATC is responsible for reporting action!

Be pro-active

[GlueBall]

Hello ATCOs

Filing an ATC Occurrence Report every time an airline is not complying with an instruction is impractical reality. If you have so many separation problems in UAE airspace, then you ought to get an outside assessment team to study the problem. It may be because of inadequate communications, inadequate training, understaffing, procedural problems, airspace infrastructure constraints or cumbersome traffic flow patterns.

More airports are being built and much more traffic is to come. It's time to sort out the separation logistics now before it gets out of hand.

Compared to traffic saturation management at airports like ATL, ORD, LAX, LHR... UAE is a small traffic problem. Some of your senior managers would be well to do in spending time at those high density centers and feel the pulse of saturation traffic management.

Nevertheless, I'm often in and out of AUH, DXB and SHJ and find all of you ATCOs doing a good job during peak traffic flows.