Security going to far?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Planet Earth
Security going to far?
Couldn't belive the conversation I had with one of the cabin crew the other night during a flight, and this is FACT not fiction.
The security staff at our Crew Briefing Centre are taking some cabin crew to one side as they return from flights and strip searching them, sometimes completely naked, and even going as far as using rubber gloves for a closer look!!!!
Surely this treatment of crew can't be legal, Can it? And must you not have medical staff in attendance if you are doing that sort of thing?
Or is this just customs in Dubai doing what they like with no protection or rights for the individual?
Someone please help, is this legal?
Don't get me wrong, if you are smuggling drugs then you deserve all you get, but there is a right and wrong way to go about this.
The security staff at our Crew Briefing Centre are taking some cabin crew to one side as they return from flights and strip searching them, sometimes completely naked, and even going as far as using rubber gloves for a closer look!!!!
Surely this treatment of crew can't be legal, Can it? And must you not have medical staff in attendance if you are doing that sort of thing?
Or is this just customs in Dubai doing what they like with no protection or rights for the individual?
Someone please help, is this legal?
Don't get me wrong, if you are smuggling drugs then you deserve all you get, but there is a right and wrong way to go about this.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 50
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This thread raises an excellent point for all the EK pilots to consider: the blase attitude of the security personnel to an individual's dignity and rights, and the blase attitude of our management to allow what can easily be seen as Sexual Assault to be conducted on EK crew. And yes, this DOES apply to us as pilots.
I have personally been asked twice in the past month, by cabin crew, for my advice on this situation. The first was a general question based on rumour and went along the lines of "what do I do, or what CAN I do, when instructed to submit to a cavity search?"
My response was "you are entitled to have medical representation present, and your first action is to call the duty cabin crew manager, and ask for advice and assistance in arranging that medical presence. If the duty CCM does not organise suitable medical representaion, or refuses to, or advises you that you have no right to a medical presence, then continue waking up every manager up the chain until Sheikh Ahmed tells you its ok." (I offered this advice not as a lawyer, but as a course of action that I would personally employ in such a situation)
The second question was from someone who DID receive such a search, AFTER speaking to the duty CC Manager and being told there was nothing to be done and she would have to submit to the search. The crew member was amazed by this, but was told she had no legal right to say no! The crew member submitted to the search, and contacted her CCM the next morning (this all happened in the middle of the night ofcourse) to discuss it as she was now feeling violated and wanted to take the matter further. She was told, by her CCM, that there was nothing to be done and it was routine security practice. That crew member has since resigned out of disgust for the manner of these searches.
I accept, understand and support, the security requirements associated with body searches: I'm not going down that road. My concern is about the manner in which they are conducted, and our company's lack of support for the crew members being intimidated into submitting to one WITHOUT MEDICAL REPRESENTATION.
If there is a management person reading this, perhaps you could garner comment from the EK legal department, Medical department, IFS and Flt Ops, and publish an official notice to crews about this very sensitive and personal issue?
Perhaps a question we should all consider as pilots (especially the Captains) is "what will you do/say when one of your crew ask your advice on this"?
And one for everybody to ponder....."Does this practice equate to sexual assault?"
I have personally been asked twice in the past month, by cabin crew, for my advice on this situation. The first was a general question based on rumour and went along the lines of "what do I do, or what CAN I do, when instructed to submit to a cavity search?"
My response was "you are entitled to have medical representation present, and your first action is to call the duty cabin crew manager, and ask for advice and assistance in arranging that medical presence. If the duty CCM does not organise suitable medical representaion, or refuses to, or advises you that you have no right to a medical presence, then continue waking up every manager up the chain until Sheikh Ahmed tells you its ok." (I offered this advice not as a lawyer, but as a course of action that I would personally employ in such a situation)
The second question was from someone who DID receive such a search, AFTER speaking to the duty CC Manager and being told there was nothing to be done and she would have to submit to the search. The crew member was amazed by this, but was told she had no legal right to say no! The crew member submitted to the search, and contacted her CCM the next morning (this all happened in the middle of the night ofcourse) to discuss it as she was now feeling violated and wanted to take the matter further. She was told, by her CCM, that there was nothing to be done and it was routine security practice. That crew member has since resigned out of disgust for the manner of these searches.
I accept, understand and support, the security requirements associated with body searches: I'm not going down that road. My concern is about the manner in which they are conducted, and our company's lack of support for the crew members being intimidated into submitting to one WITHOUT MEDICAL REPRESENTATION.
If there is a management person reading this, perhaps you could garner comment from the EK legal department, Medical department, IFS and Flt Ops, and publish an official notice to crews about this very sensitive and personal issue?
Perhaps a question we should all consider as pilots (especially the Captains) is "what will you do/say when one of your crew ask your advice on this"?
And one for everybody to ponder....."Does this practice equate to sexual assault?"
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 29
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From: Bahrain
Searching of Crew
Clearly the law's in the Middle East are somewhat lackluster. Certainly, in the UK, such an intimate search is a criminal offence and would be dealt with severely. Large amounts of compensation would follow. If the crew concerned are hired in the UK they may be able to take the matter further. A visit to a Citizens Advice bureau may lead to some leagal advice.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
Can't think of a name:
Would do the same thing as you stated, with one BIG difference. As a Captain (F/O in my case) I would personally stay and find out what to do. Personally I always go through security as the last of my crew, and if someone is being checked, I ask if they are ok.
As far as blase attitude from security staff, I can't complain about the attitude. But then again, I greet them verey time I go through security. I've been 'caught' with 6 bottles in my suitcase (was only 4 litres of alcohol), and they just asked me what was in my suitcase, explained them (4 botlles of wine, 1 spirits, 1 non alcoholic) and I didn't even have to open my bag.
Don't get me wrong, I am completely against the methods they use, but this is probably the way they were trained. And by just being friendly with them, you can avoid a lot of problems.. After all, they are just doing their job, with long nights just as we do...
MR8
Would do the same thing as you stated, with one BIG difference. As a Captain (F/O in my case) I would personally stay and find out what to do. Personally I always go through security as the last of my crew, and if someone is being checked, I ask if they are ok.
As far as blase attitude from security staff, I can't complain about the attitude. But then again, I greet them verey time I go through security. I've been 'caught' with 6 bottles in my suitcase (was only 4 litres of alcohol), and they just asked me what was in my suitcase, explained them (4 botlles of wine, 1 spirits, 1 non alcoholic) and I didn't even have to open my bag.
Don't get me wrong, I am completely against the methods they use, but this is probably the way they were trained. And by just being friendly with them, you can avoid a lot of problems.. After all, they are just doing their job, with long nights just as we do...
MR8
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: world
MR8 says:
And by just being friendly with them, you can avoid a lot of problems..
I would like to know what kind of answer and attitude this is ?????????
I would like to see your face, the day they are checking you in this manner. So lets pray to God, that your friendliness will help you than. I am sorry to say, but I am quite disappointed with your kind of answer. I totally agree with the fact that checks need to be done, but surely not in this kind of manner. And after all, Middle East or not, certain rules should apply. And surely it can't be that hard to have some kind of medical personnel present.
ctl25
And by just being friendly with them, you can avoid a lot of problems..
I would like to know what kind of answer and attitude this is ?????????
I would like to see your face, the day they are checking you in this manner. So lets pray to God, that your friendliness will help you than. I am sorry to say, but I am quite disappointed with your kind of answer. I totally agree with the fact that checks need to be done, but surely not in this kind of manner. And after all, Middle East or not, certain rules should apply. And surely it can't be that hard to have some kind of medical personnel present.
ctl25
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 158
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From: UK
Do the checks not need to be done with probable cause? I think it might be appropriate not only to force it up our chain of command but also up the security persons chain of command. It is amazing how much goes accepted in the UAE out of ignorance of local procedures. It is also amazing how often people back down when properly challenged. Routinely lower ranking staff step over personal rights and would be hung drawn and quartered if this was brought to the attention of their superiors (not literally I hope).
I have not been involved in one of these incidents but as MR8 says I would stay with crew and make certain that the Duty CCM and a medical representative were present. (Out of interest, I wonder if you have the right to even contact your own countries embassy for assistance as any other citizen has the right to.) The next step would be to write a full report directly to SVP level management asking for their advice and a written policy. If you really have first hand information of these events, rather than writing on PPrune and hoping something will be done, why not take responsibility now.
Cerberus
I have not been involved in one of these incidents but as MR8 says I would stay with crew and make certain that the Duty CCM and a medical representative were present. (Out of interest, I wonder if you have the right to even contact your own countries embassy for assistance as any other citizen has the right to.) The next step would be to write a full report directly to SVP level management asking for their advice and a written policy. If you really have first hand information of these events, rather than writing on PPrune and hoping something will be done, why not take responsibility now.
Cerberus
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 50
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Dear Cerberus and MR8,
I totally agree with "staying there and making sure things are ok". This question was asked of me some time after the event, and I was not present at the time of the incident. I can assure both of you that had I been present and privy to the situation I would have had AS on the phone, regardless of the hour.
I put this forward on this forum simply to make others aware, and to encourage consideration of the "what would I do in that situation" scenario.
Off to work now......CTOAN
I totally agree with "staying there and making sure things are ok". This question was asked of me some time after the event, and I was not present at the time of the incident. I can assure both of you that had I been present and privy to the situation I would have had AS on the phone, regardless of the hour.
I put this forward on this forum simply to make others aware, and to encourage consideration of the "what would I do in that situation" scenario.
Off to work now......CTOAN
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
ctl25:
The staying friendly part of my reply was just there to state that I never had any problems, even though they might have suspected something. A lot of the crew treat customs as if they were non existant, or start complaining even before a question has been asked. Just as I also make a point of greeting the cleaners, engineers, etc etc.. And guess what, if I have a problem, I can get a lot more done then people who live with their nose in the air...
Sorry to disappoint you with that..
MR8
The staying friendly part of my reply was just there to state that I never had any problems, even though they might have suspected something. A lot of the crew treat customs as if they were non existant, or start complaining even before a question has been asked. Just as I also make a point of greeting the cleaners, engineers, etc etc.. And guess what, if I have a problem, I can get a lot more done then people who live with their nose in the air...
Sorry to disappoint you with that..
MR8
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 643
Likes: 30
From: Global Vagabond
This is disgusting. In this day & age, taking into consideration the access to resources that are available in this region, this procedure is diabolical.
You guys need to unite & take a very firm stand on this.
You guys need to unite & take a very firm stand on this.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 138
Likes: 3
From: 1st world country
Hi guys,
just happened yesterday to one girl of my cabin crew:
She was stopped and searched very carefully (ok, not her, but her baggage). Anyway, thanks to this post, I decided to wait for her (just in case) and guess what?
This s&%$§/&%head of customs guy told me to leave.
But White Sausage wouldnīt be White Sausage if heīd left, so of course I told him to shut up and waited for her, despite this crackhead starting trying to chase me away. I asked him where it was written down that I couldnīt wait, but you know these guys: They hardly can articulate.
Anyway, the seemed to be not too happy seeing me standing there and eventually ended their search without asking her to strip.
Now Iīm sure itīs gonna be me next time...
But - it was worth!!! The girl was more than happy that she got at least some kind of support and these f$§%&$§rs saw that somebody was watching them.
I would recommend that all of us stand behind our cabin and support them! Thatīs how itīs supposed to be, we are ONE crew and we are one until we check out, not earlier.
Just for the records: Iīm not in management, I am F/O and now waiting for all the stonethrowers...
just happened yesterday to one girl of my cabin crew:
She was stopped and searched very carefully (ok, not her, but her baggage). Anyway, thanks to this post, I decided to wait for her (just in case) and guess what?
This s&%$§/&%head of customs guy told me to leave.
But White Sausage wouldnīt be White Sausage if heīd left, so of course I told him to shut up and waited for her, despite this crackhead starting trying to chase me away. I asked him where it was written down that I couldnīt wait, but you know these guys: They hardly can articulate.
Anyway, the seemed to be not too happy seeing me standing there and eventually ended their search without asking her to strip.
Now Iīm sure itīs gonna be me next time...
But - it was worth!!! The girl was more than happy that she got at least some kind of support and these f$§%&$§rs saw that somebody was watching them.
I would recommend that all of us stand behind our cabin and support them! Thatīs how itīs supposed to be, we are ONE crew and we are one until we check out, not earlier.
Just for the records: Iīm not in management, I am F/O and now waiting for all the stonethrowers...
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 103
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From: Go to the second sand dune, then turn right.
How about the crew member calling the Embassy or Consulate of their citizenship? Could very well be a Human Rights violation.
Is this a matter of airport security personnel doing the examination or Customs? Many airports do have medical personel present-- it would be appropriate to ask that one is present.
In many places, anybody has the right to refuse a search to enter a secure area, the caveat is that they will be refused entry. That is fair.
Is this a matter of airport security personnel doing the examination or Customs? Many airports do have medical personel present-- it would be appropriate to ask that one is present.
In many places, anybody has the right to refuse a search to enter a secure area, the caveat is that they will be refused entry. That is fair.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,848
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From: Dubai - sand land.
MR8 - you quite right, if you start off with a smile rather than a challenge things are always easier to get sorted out.. like you say not just customs, but engineers, despatchers etc. Very sadly we do have one or two obnoxious people in the company - they often stuff up any goodwill that may be directed our way!!
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 455
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From: Bit nosey aren't you
When directly asked, the security trainers said that if a strip search is to be done you have the right to representation by your manager. That could be the CCM or us. If any more serious kind of search were to be undertaken, it would not take place at the CBC gate and could only be undertaken in the presence of medical personnel.
Ghost
Ghost
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 138
Likes: 3
From: 1st world country
Well guys, the question still remains: Where is it written down that they are allowed to do that? Is there any law? Or are they just doing it because they think that they can do it? Would be interesting to challenge it...
I know we are living in a 4th world country and we cannot expect civilized behaviour by them, but maybe going public with this issue would help a bit...
Any ideas? Coz Iīm not willing anymore to let these f....s harrass my crew without any legal reason.
I know we are living in a 4th world country and we cannot expect civilized behaviour by them, but maybe going public with this issue would help a bit...
Any ideas? Coz Iīm not willing anymore to let these f....s harrass my crew without any legal reason.
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,490
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From: Blighty
Bottom line, the people doing the searches at CBC inbound are Customs, they like in any country i have visited have the right to search luggage/belongings of visitors/crew entering the country. They are looking for prohibited items. If they suspect there is something to give them cause for a search of bags/person they have every right to. History has shown that there are smugglers of exotic sustances amongst a minority of Cabin Crew.
However, what we as crew need is an official protocol from management at EK when those searches get rather more invasive. This is what is lacking at the moment. May i suggest if a "search" of more hidden places is required by security or Customs, then at least we stay around or better than that CCM's or F/Deck managers.
If you have bad experiences write to FDM.
EGGW.
However, what we as crew need is an official protocol from management at EK when those searches get rather more invasive. This is what is lacking at the moment. May i suggest if a "search" of more hidden places is required by security or Customs, then at least we stay around or better than that CCM's or F/Deck managers.
If you have bad experiences write to FDM.
EGGW.
