Working for EK
Working for EK
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Hello,
I´ve been approved on Emirates selection program for FO on A310 fleet. I´d like to know some info about this fleet such as types of flight, routes, fleet, upgrade to a captain, transition course and etc...
Thanks,
zericardo
I´ve been approved on Emirates selection program for FO on A310 fleet. I´d like to know some info about this fleet such as types of flight, routes, fleet, upgrade to a captain, transition course and etc...
Thanks,
zericardo
Join Date: Jul 1998
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A310
The rules at EK mean you will be an F/O on the 310 fleet FOREVER and EVER and EVER......
You must have 3 years in the company before you are eligible for promotion.
The fleet is expanding but by the time your "minimum 3 years" in the company is complete you will probably find that the 310 fleet is at its maximum capacity and fully manned.
Now consider these rules:
No Transition upgrades i.e. you are tied to your fleet awaiting promotion even though the rest of the airline is expanding fast. Emirates is not set up like any other widebody outfit. Some very strange rules such as this.
THIS ANOMALY IS NOT HIGHLIGHTED AT INTERVIEW
Even though you will end up having more experience than the DEC's that are being hired in the mean time you will have to wait on your fleet. Transfers as an F/O onto another fleet are NOT entertained.
The reason you will see so many postings on PPRUNE regarding pissed off EK F/O's is because this is applied without exception. Management positions require flexibility, vision, and openness to conflicting views, a grasp of the big picture. When it comes to this policy we see the opposite applied. It is NOT just that a lot of people want their command in "super quick" time (even if they are not ready, this is the response you'll see posted here on PPRUNE most of the time). They just want a fair system with some sense applied to it.
What people want is a CAREER PATH. An idea of how their career is likely to progress as they continually assess their working environment. This is a natural and normal state of affairs for any employee.
Consider the F/O I met recently with 19,000 hours, transatlantic and widebody. Due to unfortunate downsizing in his previous company he had been put into the RHS for a few months before joining EK. The EK rules say because of this he must join as an F/O. Now any other airline busy hiring DEC's would take a serious look at this guy after 6 months or maybe a year. It's just the sensible thing to do. BUT the rules are rules at EK and NO flexibility so he's stuck on the bus. The bus may become the incredible shrinking fleet if they get rid of the 340's and according to rumours this will happen it also appears to make economic sense to lose the 340-500's.
Imagine you are on the 310. You are going to have zero chances of promotion and this is just plain madness. Emirates have applied this policy based on its historical view of the 2 fleet system. But this is no longer applicable. Think of the number of fleets they'll have soon.
1) 310
2) 330 (non MFF)
3) 330 & 340 (MFF)
4) 777
5) 380
Even if you're taken on by EK to fly the 330, you may find yourself stuck in the same position. Join in a year or two from now and the 777 looks like a risky proposition. If you've only got 4000 hours total time then the 777 is already looking like a gamble. Consequently EK are finding it hard to fill the courses for even this fleet!
There are plenty of good things (42 days leave, bidding system) but is it enough to go on a long career holiday? Can you afford that?
Cost of living is increasing at a massive rate. I've just popped back from Spinney's (my local supermarket) and 3 sweet potatoes cost me 12.55 dirhams. That's 2.78 euro or £1.93 or $3.41. Internet is $140 per megabit per month. Rents are not cheap but gasoline is very, very cheap. Talk of Value added tax being implemented.
Call the recruitment department and check this lot out. It would be wise to have the full picture before coming
Good luck
You must have 3 years in the company before you are eligible for promotion.
The fleet is expanding but by the time your "minimum 3 years" in the company is complete you will probably find that the 310 fleet is at its maximum capacity and fully manned.
Now consider these rules:
No Transition upgrades i.e. you are tied to your fleet awaiting promotion even though the rest of the airline is expanding fast. Emirates is not set up like any other widebody outfit. Some very strange rules such as this.
THIS ANOMALY IS NOT HIGHLIGHTED AT INTERVIEW
Even though you will end up having more experience than the DEC's that are being hired in the mean time you will have to wait on your fleet. Transfers as an F/O onto another fleet are NOT entertained.
The reason you will see so many postings on PPRUNE regarding pissed off EK F/O's is because this is applied without exception. Management positions require flexibility, vision, and openness to conflicting views, a grasp of the big picture. When it comes to this policy we see the opposite applied. It is NOT just that a lot of people want their command in "super quick" time (even if they are not ready, this is the response you'll see posted here on PPRUNE most of the time). They just want a fair system with some sense applied to it.
What people want is a CAREER PATH. An idea of how their career is likely to progress as they continually assess their working environment. This is a natural and normal state of affairs for any employee.
Consider the F/O I met recently with 19,000 hours, transatlantic and widebody. Due to unfortunate downsizing in his previous company he had been put into the RHS for a few months before joining EK. The EK rules say because of this he must join as an F/O. Now any other airline busy hiring DEC's would take a serious look at this guy after 6 months or maybe a year. It's just the sensible thing to do. BUT the rules are rules at EK and NO flexibility so he's stuck on the bus. The bus may become the incredible shrinking fleet if they get rid of the 340's and according to rumours this will happen it also appears to make economic sense to lose the 340-500's.
Imagine you are on the 310. You are going to have zero chances of promotion and this is just plain madness. Emirates have applied this policy based on its historical view of the 2 fleet system. But this is no longer applicable. Think of the number of fleets they'll have soon.
1) 310
2) 330 (non MFF)
3) 330 & 340 (MFF)
4) 777
5) 380
Even if you're taken on by EK to fly the 330, you may find yourself stuck in the same position. Join in a year or two from now and the 777 looks like a risky proposition. If you've only got 4000 hours total time then the 777 is already looking like a gamble. Consequently EK are finding it hard to fill the courses for even this fleet!
There are plenty of good things (42 days leave, bidding system) but is it enough to go on a long career holiday? Can you afford that?
Cost of living is increasing at a massive rate. I've just popped back from Spinney's (my local supermarket) and 3 sweet potatoes cost me 12.55 dirhams. That's 2.78 euro or £1.93 or $3.41. Internet is $140 per megabit per month. Rents are not cheap but gasoline is very, very cheap. Talk of Value added tax being implemented.
Call the recruitment department and check this lot out. It would be wise to have the full picture before coming
Good luck
Tell them u want a letter stating 3 years maximum on 310 then either an upgrade or f/o transition to 777 or 330.
Otherwise go to Etihad same sort of deal but u will upgrade quicker.
Dont come here expecting things to change.
There is quite a few F/os with DEC and Fast track hours who r still a way off command due to being on the wrong fleet.
look out.
Otherwise go to Etihad same sort of deal but u will upgrade quicker.
Dont come here expecting things to change.
There is quite a few F/os with DEC and Fast track hours who r still a way off command due to being on the wrong fleet.
look out.
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Global Nomad
Interesting comment. Generally, it's not a good idea to wear your hat when doing walkround, especially on a windy day! Still, until the day one ends up inside a GE115........
Harry
Interesting comment. Generally, it's not a good idea to wear your hat when doing walkround, especially on a windy day! Still, until the day one ends up inside a GE115........
Harry
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Quote:
Also DUBAI is not a relaxed as Brazil, very different culturally
Yeap, I can see how is different. In Brazil they will rob you in daylight and point a gun at you...very relaxing experience.
Also DUBAI is not a relaxed as Brazil, very different culturally
Yeap, I can see how is different. In Brazil they will rob you in daylight and point a gun at you...very relaxing experience.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Oh yeh and you dont get robbed in Dubai, Ive been robbed in Dubai ever since I came, the thing is; in Brazil if you know who robbed you the police will still arrest them, Ive been robbed here by my employer but what comeback do I have,
Union, uh no not allowed
Civil Legal Case, Umm not allowed and EK retains virtually every firm in Dubai, go ask for an oppinion and see how many you have to go through before you get one.
Get knocked over by a Local - You were Jay walking, the local could not be at fault !
Car accident with an Arab - bakshish will put you at fault.
Company change your contract - umm thats their right.
Your having a laugh mate trying to put the UAE over as the some law abiding, crime free nation, go and ask your maid if your in any doubt how many of her freinds have been raped by their employer and what comeback they have ?
The other posters are correct, EK believes its own bull****, they will not tell you the truth. If you have any doubts ask for it in writing and ask that your contract may be disputed in a country of your choice and see how fast they run for cover.
Union, uh no not allowed
Civil Legal Case, Umm not allowed and EK retains virtually every firm in Dubai, go ask for an oppinion and see how many you have to go through before you get one.
Get knocked over by a Local - You were Jay walking, the local could not be at fault !
Car accident with an Arab - bakshish will put you at fault.
Company change your contract - umm thats their right.
Your having a laugh mate trying to put the UAE over as the some law abiding, crime free nation, go and ask your maid if your in any doubt how many of her freinds have been raped by their employer and what comeback they have ?
The other posters are correct, EK believes its own bull****, they will not tell you the truth. If you have any doubts ask for it in writing and ask that your contract may be disputed in a country of your choice and see how fast they run for cover.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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In a words, go find a better job because there are plenty around.
After the gloss rubs off you will soon find it's not the airline it told you it was, i have been here for two years now and have had enough with it all.
Even if you do live to draw you crappy provident scheme you will die soon after because of the way they work you.
Be prepared to fly through multiple time zones with just 24hrs rest in between and come back exhausted, oh and don't screw up because you WILL be on the carpet!!!!!
If you don't belive me then come along, after all of the threads on this airline i'am suprised you need to ask.
"Keep Discovering"
After the gloss rubs off you will soon find it's not the airline it told you it was, i have been here for two years now and have had enough with it all.
Even if you do live to draw you crappy provident scheme you will die soon after because of the way they work you.
Be prepared to fly through multiple time zones with just 24hrs rest in between and come back exhausted, oh and don't screw up because you WILL be on the carpet!!!!!
If you don't belive me then come along, after all of the threads on this airline i'am suprised you need to ask.
"Keep Discovering"
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Not quite true about "EK don't recruit in Dubai"
A friend of a friend of a friend told me that they had walk in interviews for cabin crew once.....it worked quite well. The taxi driver that bought the housemaid just joined the same line while he was waiting for a return fare, not that either had to wait very long. Shortest interview ever apparently.
So SS, are you worried that the company might hire someone you know?
A friend of a friend of a friend told me that they had walk in interviews for cabin crew once.....it worked quite well. The taxi driver that bought the housemaid just joined the same line while he was waiting for a return fare, not that either had to wait very long. Shortest interview ever apparently.
So SS, are you worried that the company might hire someone you know?
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Seaman Staynes,
you have your facts wrong. There are not plenty of Russians in Dubai - for all that matters, there should be more.
Although I enjoy listening to Russian language, not everyone speaking Russian is from Russia necessarily.
Emirates has always recruited both cabin and cockpit crew in Dubai. I am one of those. And yes, they had to drag me out of 'clone for an interview.
airvlad
you have your facts wrong. There are not plenty of Russians in Dubai - for all that matters, there should be more.
Although I enjoy listening to Russian language, not everyone speaking Russian is from Russia necessarily.
Emirates has always recruited both cabin and cockpit crew in Dubai. I am one of those. And yes, they had to drag me out of 'clone for an interview.
airvlad
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Is it really that bad ?
always negative thoughts about EK all the time since i been reading this forum pilots are always complaining that's quite sure 
but ...but is it really very very bad ?
I was thinking about EK to join in the future but now i am starting to think twice before i take the decision....
but ...but is it really very very bad ?I was thinking about EK to join in the future but now i am starting to think twice before i take the decision....
Join Date: Aug 2005
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When one talks about Dubai and about working for EK a comparison is always made to where one came from.
I for one compare what i had to what i have now- i did this when i decided to come to work here in Dubai.
The pros and cons were evaluated and I made the decsion to move. Yes, there are things that irritate you and yes there are things that are good. I always find it much easier to cope when I am pissed of at things by just remembering were i came from and why i came. And for thoose of you who must be questioning were i came from- i came from Europe and from an established airline with good terms and conditions.
In my humble opinion things are not all that bad in Dubai. I know that i am probably going to get alot of slack for expressing such an opinion however that is the truth.
The only thing i tell people before they commit themselves to a move is to come here and evaluate the place as well as possible albeit in a short period of time.
It could be that alot of you who are complaining have been here longer than i have ( for thoose of you who are asking I have been here- not all the time with EK- for over 10 years) and have seen their fair share however things are not that bad.
It is useless expecting things to be the same as home- we are in a different country after all.
settling doen in Dubai all depends on the approach that one takes. Coming from Europe you will have to close your eyes to alot of things- having said that there are things that you can do here that you would not be able to do back home.
Re reading this post i might have come out to be a little patronising-so for thoose of you who take offence at my first post please accept my apologies in advance.
Regards
AMC13
I for one compare what i had to what i have now- i did this when i decided to come to work here in Dubai.
The pros and cons were evaluated and I made the decsion to move. Yes, there are things that irritate you and yes there are things that are good. I always find it much easier to cope when I am pissed of at things by just remembering were i came from and why i came. And for thoose of you who must be questioning were i came from- i came from Europe and from an established airline with good terms and conditions.
In my humble opinion things are not all that bad in Dubai. I know that i am probably going to get alot of slack for expressing such an opinion however that is the truth.
The only thing i tell people before they commit themselves to a move is to come here and evaluate the place as well as possible albeit in a short period of time.
It could be that alot of you who are complaining have been here longer than i have ( for thoose of you who are asking I have been here- not all the time with EK- for over 10 years) and have seen their fair share however things are not that bad.
It is useless expecting things to be the same as home- we are in a different country after all.
settling doen in Dubai all depends on the approach that one takes. Coming from Europe you will have to close your eyes to alot of things- having said that there are things that you can do here that you would not be able to do back home.
Re reading this post i might have come out to be a little patronising-so for thoose of you who take offence at my first post please accept my apologies in advance.
Regards
AMC13
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EK Wife is back! Does your husband know that you are writing?
It seems to me that the people who most defend EK (EK Wife and others) have only one arguement. That is only a vocal minority are unhappy and they are the only ones that post on pprune. That is simply not true. The pilots that are unhappy have every reason to post as do the happy ones. The disillusioned pilots tend to back up their feelings with facts: Terms and conditions changing and always for the detriment of the pilots, DECs, contract changes, rapidily deteriorating spending power with no acknowledgement from mangement, traffic in Dubai and on and on.
These are facts and no one not even EK Wife can deny that has happened in the last 3 years. If pilots are not disillusioned of what has happened in the recent past then only two things are the reason for that: one is that they come from the 3rd world and just so darn happy to be here in the sand that nothing will change their minds or that they have recently arrived and only a matter of time and they will be thinking like the "minority" here.
The happy pilots just say that EK is better than where I came from so it must be good. Fair enough but back it up with facts. Say how much you were making back home and compare it with here. But don't forget to add how much money you can send home with the inflation rate here.
It seems to me that the people who most defend EK (EK Wife and others) have only one arguement. That is only a vocal minority are unhappy and they are the only ones that post on pprune. That is simply not true. The pilots that are unhappy have every reason to post as do the happy ones. The disillusioned pilots tend to back up their feelings with facts: Terms and conditions changing and always for the detriment of the pilots, DECs, contract changes, rapidily deteriorating spending power with no acknowledgement from mangement, traffic in Dubai and on and on.
These are facts and no one not even EK Wife can deny that has happened in the last 3 years. If pilots are not disillusioned of what has happened in the recent past then only two things are the reason for that: one is that they come from the 3rd world and just so darn happy to be here in the sand that nothing will change their minds or that they have recently arrived and only a matter of time and they will be thinking like the "minority" here.
The happy pilots just say that EK is better than where I came from so it must be good. Fair enough but back it up with facts. Say how much you were making back home and compare it with here. But don't forget to add how much money you can send home with the inflation rate here.
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OK Heathrow,
I don't disagree with all that you write but you make the following claim about the disillusioned, and I presume you include yourself in that morbid bunch.
So because pilots feel bad, they back it up with facts? What came first the chicken or the egg?
Exactly what has changed in your contract?
Don't bother answering, I'll tell you. Nothing.
Has policy changed? Yes, but unfortunately a company has the right to change any policy that is non contractual. Most of EK policy is non contractual. An example, "Hours of Work"
Working hours are established in accordance with the operational requirements of the company. You will be required to work such hours and on such days as directed by the company's duty roster. Furthermore, it may be necessary from time to time to work such reasonable additional hours as the Company may direct, in accordance with the Company's FTDL which are published in the FOM.
In other words, you have to work when they say, including a day off.
On the subject of DEC's;
Totally disagree with it but my opinion doesn't count because it's not in my contract.
Has the company ever hired DEC's in the past, present, future? Yes, yes, probably.
The point I make, is that anyone accepting any position should understand the contract that they are signing.
I hate the driving to, but I don't blame the company.
I am not disillusioned simply because I know what I signed when I came, neither am I from a 3rd world or recently arrived.
Should I find a better contract (and that's all we are on), then I will assess it and make an informed decision.
In the meantime I will continue to enjoy my life, especially when I get to debate with the likes of Heathrow, he just has so much 'feeling'.
I don't disagree with all that you write but you make the following claim about the disillusioned, and I presume you include yourself in that morbid bunch.
The disillusioned pilots tend to back up their feelings with facts......
Exactly what has changed in your contract?
Don't bother answering, I'll tell you. Nothing.
Has policy changed? Yes, but unfortunately a company has the right to change any policy that is non contractual. Most of EK policy is non contractual. An example, "Hours of Work"
Working hours are established in accordance with the operational requirements of the company. You will be required to work such hours and on such days as directed by the company's duty roster. Furthermore, it may be necessary from time to time to work such reasonable additional hours as the Company may direct, in accordance with the Company's FTDL which are published in the FOM.
In other words, you have to work when they say, including a day off.
On the subject of DEC's;
Totally disagree with it but my opinion doesn't count because it's not in my contract.
Has the company ever hired DEC's in the past, present, future? Yes, yes, probably.
The point I make, is that anyone accepting any position should understand the contract that they are signing.
I hate the driving to, but I don't blame the company.
I am not disillusioned simply because I know what I signed when I came, neither am I from a 3rd world or recently arrived.
Should I find a better contract (and that's all we are on), then I will assess it and make an informed decision.
In the meantime I will continue to enjoy my life, especially when I get to debate with the likes of Heathrow, he just has so much 'feeling'.
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GN, a job anywhere is more than merely a contract. When we joined the company there was the contract which was explicit.
However, the recruitment team and management also filled us in on "how we do things around here" and the various benefits of the job, this was the implicit part of the decision to join.
For all of us that have been here more than a few years (and you have not been here that long and during that time have found a way to get rapidly promoted) it is the changes in the everyday working terms and conditions that are not within the scope of the contract that have changed things so much for us.
Every time there is a negative change, like your wonderful cost-neutral credit scam, you are saying to the employee's, you have no safety net, we can change what we like.
This is why the airline is approaching crisis in both your new and your old department.
When are you and your fellow managers going to get it, every time you sneak a couple of dollars off our contracts it has a cumulative negative effect.
In case you haven't realised it you personally hold a degree of responsibility for the present Flt Ops climate, maybe that's why you defend it so actively.
However, the recruitment team and management also filled us in on "how we do things around here" and the various benefits of the job, this was the implicit part of the decision to join.
For all of us that have been here more than a few years (and you have not been here that long and during that time have found a way to get rapidly promoted) it is the changes in the everyday working terms and conditions that are not within the scope of the contract that have changed things so much for us.
Every time there is a negative change, like your wonderful cost-neutral credit scam, you are saying to the employee's, you have no safety net, we can change what we like.
This is why the airline is approaching crisis in both your new and your old department.
When are you and your fellow managers going to get it, every time you sneak a couple of dollars off our contracts it has a cumulative negative effect.
In case you haven't realised it you personally hold a degree of responsibility for the present Flt Ops climate, maybe that's why you defend it so actively.
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I of course don't blame the company for the traffic in DXB but it is just one more negative aspect of living in Dubai. Some improvements could be done to the infrastructure but that probably won't happen anytime soon.
Exactly what has changed in my contract?
Are you kidding me? The pay and credit system (it was in the FOM), the terms and conditions are the big items (also FOM). This has probably resulted at the time with a 20% to 25% pay cut. Your figures may vary but please let us all know. The bidding system but I guess that is not a contractable item. Ruserious has put it a lot more eloquently than I ever could.
"Furthermore, it may be necessary from time to time to work such reasonable additional hours as the Company may direct, in accordance with the Company's FTDL which are published in the FOM." Yes we are all slaves in one way or another but the factoring, working two pilots to a lot of destinations, and for most pilots working 18 days a month for 95 hours is not what we signed up for. We all know that some of the FTDL that were published would be very illegal in Europe. The company with help from Flt Ops changes anything it wants with no checks and balances. Certainly not from you in the office to say NO!
How did you move into mangement so quickly? I guess if I had the attitude you do I could make the move as well. It is time for you and your co-hearts to right the ship. It is up to you. How many captains resigned to go back to S.A. this week? That is only the tip of the iceberg. Contrary to what EK Wife writes on this board I am not in the minority for the pilot group. Maybe vocal but certainly not the minority. Change this company for the better, PLEASE! Stop defending and start acting, we all want you to before it is too late. I look forward to your reply and your actions.
Exactly what has changed in my contract?
Are you kidding me? The pay and credit system (it was in the FOM), the terms and conditions are the big items (also FOM). This has probably resulted at the time with a 20% to 25% pay cut. Your figures may vary but please let us all know. The bidding system but I guess that is not a contractable item. Ruserious has put it a lot more eloquently than I ever could.
"Furthermore, it may be necessary from time to time to work such reasonable additional hours as the Company may direct, in accordance with the Company's FTDL which are published in the FOM." Yes we are all slaves in one way or another but the factoring, working two pilots to a lot of destinations, and for most pilots working 18 days a month for 95 hours is not what we signed up for. We all know that some of the FTDL that were published would be very illegal in Europe. The company with help from Flt Ops changes anything it wants with no checks and balances. Certainly not from you in the office to say NO!
How did you move into mangement so quickly? I guess if I had the attitude you do I could make the move as well. It is time for you and your co-hearts to right the ship. It is up to you. How many captains resigned to go back to S.A. this week? That is only the tip of the iceberg. Contrary to what EK Wife writes on this board I am not in the minority for the pilot group. Maybe vocal but certainly not the minority. Change this company for the better, PLEASE! Stop defending and start acting, we all want you to before it is too late. I look forward to your reply and your actions.
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I just love these debates.....ok here goes.
The FOM is not part of your contract with respect to pay.
Some of our FTDL's may be illegal in Europe (I don't know and I haven't bothered to find out, nor do I care to) but I have no doubt they are legal in the UAE as the GCAA is the regulatory authority. If they weren't legal, the UAE would be on the ICAO black list just released.
The contract is (and always has been) a very long, long way from being explicit.
No defence, no personal attacks, just the facts.
By the way, do you own a red tie?
The FOM is not part of your contract with respect to pay.
Some of our FTDL's may be illegal in Europe (I don't know and I haven't bothered to find out, nor do I care to) but I have no doubt they are legal in the UAE as the GCAA is the regulatory authority. If they weren't legal, the UAE would be on the ICAO black list just released.
The contract is (and always has been) a very long, long way from being explicit.
No defence, no personal attacks, just the facts.
By the way, do you own a red tie?