Working for EK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used to own a red tie, not that it has anything to do with this discussion.
GN, the contract is explicit, what it says is, what it says, by definition that is explicit.
The reason most people join any company is not what is written in the contract, it is based on ALL the other information they can gather on T&C's, company culture etc.
I'm sorry, but you continually defend organisational practise's that are utter crap, both on this forum and in your real life.
If you think what is happening with the 900hours factoring nonsense is legal you are either dumber than I thought, or deeper in denial. ( I never took you for dumb).
Sorry if this seems like a personal attack, I have a very low BS threshold.
GN, the contract is explicit, what it says is, what it says, by definition that is explicit.
The reason most people join any company is not what is written in the contract, it is based on ALL the other information they can gather on T&C's, company culture etc.
I'm sorry, but you continually defend organisational practise's that are utter crap, both on this forum and in your real life.
If you think what is happening with the 900hours factoring nonsense is legal you are either dumber than I thought, or deeper in denial. ( I never took you for dumb).
Sorry if this seems like a personal attack, I have a very low BS threshold.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Desert
Posts: 363
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FOM had the pay and credit in it and that is what we went on when we joined. That as you know has been changed drastically for the companies advantage. Certainly not cost neutral.
I was not trying to be personal to you but I really sincerely want the company to get better and I think that you can do it. At the very least you are in a much better position to make the changes than I or any other line pilots are. Stand up for us!
Did any of the agencies in Europe or Australlia know about EK and the factoring? Without knowing for sure I suspect that answer is a very definite NO!
Sorry no red tie but I am looking for one. Can you help me?
I was not trying to be personal to you but I really sincerely want the company to get better and I think that you can do it. At the very least you are in a much better position to make the changes than I or any other line pilots are. Stand up for us!
Did any of the agencies in Europe or Australlia know about EK and the factoring? Without knowing for sure I suspect that answer is a very definite NO!
Sorry no red tie but I am looking for one. Can you help me?
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Luton
Age: 59
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If GN=KG then I am very sad at seeing a relatively intelligent man resort to such infantile excuses to support a contract with enough holes in it to satisfy the most eager cheese eater. If it is you Kev, then I am very sad to see you plunge to extremely immature depths. You know that the contract sucks, you know that we're working harder than ever for less relative cash. You know that morale is worse now than it ever was, especially in IFS, and you know that, if you subtract the more extreme rants, what is said on this thread and others, is true. You also know that there are layers upon layers of Swiss Cheese all lining up....
Emmental Airlines anyone?
Emmental Airlines anyone?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bolivia
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GN has given the perfect answer as to why things are so bad here. If he is in fact management he shows us why it is so easy to manage here. Just quote the book. Unlike the FCOM where it plainly says that it is impossible to cover all situations and nothing replaces sound judgement. These idiots in our management chain just continually change "policy" and when asked to help they just reply "the fom says......".
If we all operated aircraft like you idiots manage people, most of us would have been dead long ago!
If we all operated aircraft like you idiots manage people, most of us would have been dead long ago!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: dxb
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boys
GN is KG, that fat ass office boy, that never answered the question a few months ago: "do you bat for the other side?"
I would not give him 1 second of my time. He has messed up too many careers.
Along with DEC, just another bad smell that TCK left behind.
GN is KG, that fat ass office boy, that never answered the question a few months ago: "do you bat for the other side?"
I would not give him 1 second of my time. He has messed up too many careers.
Along with DEC, just another bad smell that TCK left behind.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Global Nomad
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately this is going to be my last post for a while, but don't worry I will be back.
PPrune, particularly on these threads, offers a great opportunity to provide a balanced perspective on airlines such as Emirates. However, the majority do not post. The minority, such as LHR Rain and a few others (maybe a maximum of 10) provide the majority of the input which takes any balance there was out of it. A lot of what they claim is true but it needs to be corrected in context. Occasionally these more prolific posters whip up some emotional sentiment amongst newbies that "want to be one of the gang" and they resort to pathetic little posts that provide no substance or content of merit that is worthy of a response.
Guys, if you spent a little more time reading my posts for meaning and intent you would realise that I am neutral on most of what goes on in Emirates. Why neutral? Because I very much doubt that it's going to change and I acknowledge (albeit reluctantly) that the contract I signed is the contract that I am working. If the definition of a "contract full of holes" is "an incredibly vague and open contract", then we agree on something. Just get used to the fact that you have signed (as I have) a contract that allows your employer to alter policy at will with no impact upon contracted terms. Do I support this fact? No, but I accepted it and acknowledged the flaws in my contract because it was the best deal going at the time and believe it or not still is. The reason I accepted a less than explicit (by definition: clear, precise) contract was because I looked at everything else that was going on, both here and elsewhere, and came to a balanced decision. When a better offer comes along, I will go as many others will too. However, I'm not going to blame Emirates for a contract that I signed in a good state of mind.
If the contract doesn't suit you, then tell people on pprune why it doesn't suit you and what you intend to do about it, but don't claim the company has changed your contract because they haven't. People DO need to know that the contract they sign will provide conditions in accordance with company policy and that the company policy may (or should I say will) be amended from time to time. Those of you with legal experience in industrial law already know that. People DO need to know that everything outside the contract, including life in Dubai, can and probably will change. LHR's comments about the driving and infrastructure are spot on.
If you want to bag the company and Dubai for meddling in policy to our detriment, then you won't find any argument from me. My only claim is that the contract has not been breached.
Thanks to all the guys that have sent me PM's acknowledging my angle on the subject and thanking me for the balanced view.
PS
Sorry about all the slander Kevin, I'd suggest you send a note down to recruiting asking them to tighten up on the psychometrics.
PPrune, particularly on these threads, offers a great opportunity to provide a balanced perspective on airlines such as Emirates. However, the majority do not post. The minority, such as LHR Rain and a few others (maybe a maximum of 10) provide the majority of the input which takes any balance there was out of it. A lot of what they claim is true but it needs to be corrected in context. Occasionally these more prolific posters whip up some emotional sentiment amongst newbies that "want to be one of the gang" and they resort to pathetic little posts that provide no substance or content of merit that is worthy of a response.
Guys, if you spent a little more time reading my posts for meaning and intent you would realise that I am neutral on most of what goes on in Emirates. Why neutral? Because I very much doubt that it's going to change and I acknowledge (albeit reluctantly) that the contract I signed is the contract that I am working. If the definition of a "contract full of holes" is "an incredibly vague and open contract", then we agree on something. Just get used to the fact that you have signed (as I have) a contract that allows your employer to alter policy at will with no impact upon contracted terms. Do I support this fact? No, but I accepted it and acknowledged the flaws in my contract because it was the best deal going at the time and believe it or not still is. The reason I accepted a less than explicit (by definition: clear, precise) contract was because I looked at everything else that was going on, both here and elsewhere, and came to a balanced decision. When a better offer comes along, I will go as many others will too. However, I'm not going to blame Emirates for a contract that I signed in a good state of mind.
If the contract doesn't suit you, then tell people on pprune why it doesn't suit you and what you intend to do about it, but don't claim the company has changed your contract because they haven't. People DO need to know that the contract they sign will provide conditions in accordance with company policy and that the company policy may (or should I say will) be amended from time to time. Those of you with legal experience in industrial law already know that. People DO need to know that everything outside the contract, including life in Dubai, can and probably will change. LHR's comments about the driving and infrastructure are spot on.
If you want to bag the company and Dubai for meddling in policy to our detriment, then you won't find any argument from me. My only claim is that the contract has not been breached.
Thanks to all the guys that have sent me PM's acknowledging my angle on the subject and thanking me for the balanced view.
PS
Sorry about all the slander Kevin, I'd suggest you send a note down to recruiting asking them to tighten up on the psychometrics.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: ME
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GN
But you do support it by doing NOTHING about it. You are willing to sit and take it. This may be all you can do in your particular field and I do appreciate that the option consistantly advised by the pro EK lobby on this forum 'if you don't like it leave' may not be open to you.
However, many (open to debate) do not like it and have, or are in the process of, leaving. Compound this with pilots not turning up for interviews or accepting employment offers then EK will be short of crews. Those they do have will/are being exposed to unacceptable working conditions which will/has threaten safety and ultimately EKs future. If you do not believe this then you may have a case to be 'neutral', if you do accept some of this then you are spineless.
Not even the lure of 777s and 380s are now convincing crews away from high paying 'low fare' operators. Times have changed and EK is failing to adapt and keep pace with what is happening in the job market. Instead of being proactive and 'ensuring the very highest of standards' they are deliberatly waiting to react and are allowing standards to decline.
If that 'vague and open' contract we've signed is now damaging the company then the flexibility that is built in for the company by the company should be used to fix the real problems we now face & not exasibate them.
Just get used to the fact that you have signed (as I have) a contract that allows your employer to alter policy at will with no impact upon contracted terms. Do I support this fact? No.
However, many (open to debate) do not like it and have, or are in the process of, leaving. Compound this with pilots not turning up for interviews or accepting employment offers then EK will be short of crews. Those they do have will/are being exposed to unacceptable working conditions which will/has threaten safety and ultimately EKs future. If you do not believe this then you may have a case to be 'neutral', if you do accept some of this then you are spineless.
Not even the lure of 777s and 380s are now convincing crews away from high paying 'low fare' operators. Times have changed and EK is failing to adapt and keep pace with what is happening in the job market. Instead of being proactive and 'ensuring the very highest of standards' they are deliberatly waiting to react and are allowing standards to decline.
If that 'vague and open' contract we've signed is now damaging the company then the flexibility that is built in for the company by the company should be used to fix the real problems we now face & not exasibate them.
Last edited by Shake; 2nd Sep 2005 at 11:03.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the State of Perpetual Confusion
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PPrune, particularly on these threads, offers a great opportunity to provide a balanced perspective on airlines such as Emirates. However, the majority do not post. The minority, such as LHR Rain and a few others (maybe a maximum of 10) provide the majority of the input which takes any balance there was out of it.
As far as whether the changes made have been contractual, for the most part, GN is technically correct. Even so, it is a specious argument. If you change the conditions under which people work for the worse, they will not like it. If you do it often, they will really be angry and will begin to leave. In my 10 years here, I have had "contractual items" changed with no recourse available on my part. The fact is that Emirates uses these so called "non-contractual" issues as selling points in their recruitment and then cries foul when people complain upon their change. At the very time when the company was making an unprecedented and unilateral increase in pilot productivity, they reduced the actual pay that pilots receive for increased productivity. Now they act surprised that people are angry. The complete and utter lack of understanding of the human element is the reason that morale is low, staffing (recruitment and retention) is in peril and the sobriquet, "Emmental Airlines" is in danger of becoming more than just a clever passing remark.
Our managers are in denial right now as to the extent of our problems and unfortunately, our corporate culture - one of fear, intimidation and shoot the messenger - shows no signs of changing that. Don't be too hard on GN; he has simply done what any successful manager in an expat culture does. He identified the quickest and easiest path for his own advancement with little or no regard for the long term implications to the organization or to the people that make up the organization. That the company chooses to encourage and reward such efforts is not his fault. The really chilling part about all of this is that the culture that has lead us to this situation - the slavish devotion to cost over quality, the intense centralization of authority that deprives middle managers of any ability to affect meaningful solutions, and the belief that the line employees are simply an impediment to the management running a really slick little operation - shows no sign of changing. This is why I and others no longer see a long term future working for this company.
Last edited by Gillegan; 2nd Sep 2005 at 15:31.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Luton
Age: 59
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WOW! Gillegan, that was the most accurate and concise description of the current climate under which we work. Now which one of you brave boys is going to cut and paste it into a letter to the only people that can really make a difference? It might just work.
As for GN/KG/Whoever's comments about the vocal minority, can I remind anyone reading this of the cost, in financial terms, that a few have sufferred as a result of voicing their opinions in an open forum? Can I remind all reading this of the witch hunts that have taken place in order to find out who is who and who is saying what here? So who is going to dare to speak up? I only ever go to a wireless hot spot and post (all Starbuck's have them) just because I am afraid that the comapny can somehow trace my IP address. Paranoid? That's the current culture that we work under? And I used to be so proud.
Can I remind all of you that the current climate is cost over quality and in some cases, cost over safety. You want an example GN? Then ask the engineering stores of the current stock holding of vital spares, ask the pilots (all of them!) how fatigued they are, ask the cabin crew where their morale is, then address the morale vs. safety issue and you will see that safety, yes safety has been affected.
If I may ask one question, GN, how long have you been here? You may be very correct in your opinions regarding the legality issues, but I did not join this company with the legal aspects of whether my Ts & Cs would change in my mind. I trusted the recruiters and they as a group have also been cut loose with nothing more than a "Thanks very much, now go back on the line we don't need you anymore." Maybe you don't think that the filtering process that a solid pilot recruitment body can be of great benefit to the company? But when I joined, there was a tangible pride in working for the company. Sure, old Graham Jenkins was a bit of a pedantic old sod when it came to things, but he introduced things that were of direct benefit to the pilot group, the seniority list for one. We then had the Al Mulla fiasco, getting caught in an Abu Dhabi hotel sh@gging someone elses missus was the only legacy that he left behind. Then along comes TCK, what a mess that was. Then we had the 'Rudderless' years, Adel comes along, now we have TCAS. That is a synopsis of the personnel tasked with being Head of Flight Operations in less than seven years.
What about Chief Pilots? Robin, John, Paul, Granger, Hassan, Carl, have I missed anyone out? I can't remember. We now have two Deputy CPs, the fleet management of the Boeing has had Brian, Kevin and now Patricia, all in less than seven years. Gibbons has done whatever job he could lay his hands on and as for the rest of the jobs, I have no idea who does what now. I have no idea who the training guys are and who is head of training these days? Is it still the safety guy?
The above change in personnel in key positions is just one layer of Swiss Cheese.
Engineering. We used to have Engineers on the line dipatching us, we now have mechanics. Result? A degredation in the support afforded to us by the Engineering department. I have never flown with as many ADDs as I do now and that is the truth.
That is another layer of Swiss Cheese.
Another one is the general low level of morale. We have not won a single prize of note in quite a few years. Those prizes made us all feel proud and kept morale high, now, as a result of a ridiculous pace of expansion and associated cost cutting in key areas, the prizes have dwindled.
Another layer slides into place with holes lining up too nicely for my liking. I could go on and on and on, but my Cappucino is getting cold.
For anyone in a position of power who may be reading this, the pilot group, almost as a whole, are very fatigued and tired. Many of us are looking around for new opportunities and feel that Emirates is going away form its original emphasis on quality and its original corporate culture of being the EK family, a family that it felt good to be part of. Now ask a DEC if he feels part of that original corporate culture and he'll probably answer, well, so long as you pay me enough.
Please, many of you who read these posts think that they are the work of evil and malicious pilots, intent on bring the airline to its knees. Wrong. This is the only place that we can air our frustrations and try and get someone to listen to the genuine fears and issues that we, on the line, are facing every day. But then it hasn't worked so far, so why should it now?
And GN, just in case you were wondering, morale is at its lowest in the eight years that I have been here.
As for GN/KG/Whoever's comments about the vocal minority, can I remind anyone reading this of the cost, in financial terms, that a few have sufferred as a result of voicing their opinions in an open forum? Can I remind all reading this of the witch hunts that have taken place in order to find out who is who and who is saying what here? So who is going to dare to speak up? I only ever go to a wireless hot spot and post (all Starbuck's have them) just because I am afraid that the comapny can somehow trace my IP address. Paranoid? That's the current culture that we work under? And I used to be so proud.
Can I remind all of you that the current climate is cost over quality and in some cases, cost over safety. You want an example GN? Then ask the engineering stores of the current stock holding of vital spares, ask the pilots (all of them!) how fatigued they are, ask the cabin crew where their morale is, then address the morale vs. safety issue and you will see that safety, yes safety has been affected.
If I may ask one question, GN, how long have you been here? You may be very correct in your opinions regarding the legality issues, but I did not join this company with the legal aspects of whether my Ts & Cs would change in my mind. I trusted the recruiters and they as a group have also been cut loose with nothing more than a "Thanks very much, now go back on the line we don't need you anymore." Maybe you don't think that the filtering process that a solid pilot recruitment body can be of great benefit to the company? But when I joined, there was a tangible pride in working for the company. Sure, old Graham Jenkins was a bit of a pedantic old sod when it came to things, but he introduced things that were of direct benefit to the pilot group, the seniority list for one. We then had the Al Mulla fiasco, getting caught in an Abu Dhabi hotel sh@gging someone elses missus was the only legacy that he left behind. Then along comes TCK, what a mess that was. Then we had the 'Rudderless' years, Adel comes along, now we have TCAS. That is a synopsis of the personnel tasked with being Head of Flight Operations in less than seven years.
What about Chief Pilots? Robin, John, Paul, Granger, Hassan, Carl, have I missed anyone out? I can't remember. We now have two Deputy CPs, the fleet management of the Boeing has had Brian, Kevin and now Patricia, all in less than seven years. Gibbons has done whatever job he could lay his hands on and as for the rest of the jobs, I have no idea who does what now. I have no idea who the training guys are and who is head of training these days? Is it still the safety guy?
The above change in personnel in key positions is just one layer of Swiss Cheese.
Engineering. We used to have Engineers on the line dipatching us, we now have mechanics. Result? A degredation in the support afforded to us by the Engineering department. I have never flown with as many ADDs as I do now and that is the truth.
That is another layer of Swiss Cheese.
Another one is the general low level of morale. We have not won a single prize of note in quite a few years. Those prizes made us all feel proud and kept morale high, now, as a result of a ridiculous pace of expansion and associated cost cutting in key areas, the prizes have dwindled.
Another layer slides into place with holes lining up too nicely for my liking. I could go on and on and on, but my Cappucino is getting cold.
For anyone in a position of power who may be reading this, the pilot group, almost as a whole, are very fatigued and tired. Many of us are looking around for new opportunities and feel that Emirates is going away form its original emphasis on quality and its original corporate culture of being the EK family, a family that it felt good to be part of. Now ask a DEC if he feels part of that original corporate culture and he'll probably answer, well, so long as you pay me enough.
Please, many of you who read these posts think that they are the work of evil and malicious pilots, intent on bring the airline to its knees. Wrong. This is the only place that we can air our frustrations and try and get someone to listen to the genuine fears and issues that we, on the line, are facing every day. But then it hasn't worked so far, so why should it now?
And GN, just in case you were wondering, morale is at its lowest in the eight years that I have been here.
Gilligan , very articulate post . I might add that management skills are still in an immature state within Middle Eastern culture an MBA does not create an instant manager , far from it .
As inadequacies are exposed usually by the exponential growth of organisations and increased competition , the fear factor of failure spreads upwards and outwards leading to ever increasing "defensive posturing " and indecision on the part of our leaders . Who is exactly in charge around here ? as you rightly stated the extreme centralisation and desire to comply with local cultural behaviour , i.e fear of offending , lead to indecision on a grand scale . This renders all middle management impotent (in the managerial sense) except for administrative issues and minor changes to daily routine.
Success is judged by how far up the management ladder one climbs , sadly not by the morale and good will , not to mention loyalty one engenders within the work force. Save a few Dhs and you are successful , the attitude of the corner shop manager or rug trader , I think we deserve better than that . Why isn,t it possible ?...please don,t mention oil prices .
As inadequacies are exposed usually by the exponential growth of organisations and increased competition , the fear factor of failure spreads upwards and outwards leading to ever increasing "defensive posturing " and indecision on the part of our leaders . Who is exactly in charge around here ? as you rightly stated the extreme centralisation and desire to comply with local cultural behaviour , i.e fear of offending , lead to indecision on a grand scale . This renders all middle management impotent (in the managerial sense) except for administrative issues and minor changes to daily routine.
Success is judged by how far up the management ladder one climbs , sadly not by the morale and good will , not to mention loyalty one engenders within the work force. Save a few Dhs and you are successful , the attitude of the corner shop manager or rug trader , I think we deserve better than that . Why isn,t it possible ?...please don,t mention oil prices .
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the State of Perpetual Confusion
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who is exactly in charge around here ? as you rightly stated the extreme centralisation and desire to comply with local cultural behaviour , i.e fear of offending , lead to indecision on a grand scale . This renders all middle management impotent (in the managerial sense) except for administrative issues and minor changes to daily routine.
I suspect that the impotent middle management is partially a function of the way TC and others choose to manage along with a desire to control costs (a laudable goal). I came from an airline that would lose money if you gave it to them in a bag so I can appreciate the desire to keep a lid on things. Unfortunately, you set up the organization to avoid one problem and you create two in its place. Somewhere else on this forum, a former Emirates manager stated that he oversaw 70 to 80 people yet only had budgetary authority up to Dh500. That, in my mind says it all.
I see your point in fact in retrospect such behaviour exists in many cultures and organisations as you said.
However I do feel that the option to offer constructive criticism may be compromised by local tradition rather than by the personality of one,s superior, after all most of our managers have no safety net either . Just a thought .
The cost control is of course sensible , but proactive behaviour i.e earning more revenue must be the main goal , it is true to say as others have said before , crews are at their limits in terms of fatigue, there is no more juice in the lemon., and market forces beckon.
Interesting regarding the lowly budget allocation , anxiety or lack of trust ? who knows: and the long term view aspect, or lack of it ,is a very good point . Shareholders in the form of the Govt. of Dubai may be just as anxious for profit on a quarterly basis ? what say.
However I do feel that the option to offer constructive criticism may be compromised by local tradition rather than by the personality of one,s superior, after all most of our managers have no safety net either . Just a thought .
The cost control is of course sensible , but proactive behaviour i.e earning more revenue must be the main goal , it is true to say as others have said before , crews are at their limits in terms of fatigue, there is no more juice in the lemon., and market forces beckon.
Interesting regarding the lowly budget allocation , anxiety or lack of trust ? who knows: and the long term view aspect, or lack of it ,is a very good point . Shareholders in the form of the Govt. of Dubai may be just as anxious for profit on a quarterly basis ? what say.
Guest
Posts: n/a
some effects of human and business nature that not even the most brilliant display of
ek-management's arrogance can overcome:
employees will only respect their employer as long as the latter respects mutual contracts and
makes every effort to stick to promisses.
employees will always serve customers in reflection of treatment endured from their employer.
too many resignations or lack of suitable applications reflect uncompetitive or unbearable t&c’s,
more often a combination thereof.
failure to timely tackle such problems not only agravates the internal situation, it also fuels
the competition.
subsequent fading morale is a early warning sign of incapable management, mostly paired with
the ineptitude or unwillingness to counteract. the ineviteable successors face exponential costs
to repair the damage the customer can not be made to pay for. it will therefore once more be
burdened upon employees, fuelling a vicious spiral (see above).
to blame it on employees for not speaking up, or on middle management for covering up, is nonsense.
it is the downright responsibility of the leaders to get the complete picture and act accordingly.
hh sa must act or settle for second or third best in this region. slumping ratings or empty classrooms
speak for themselves. if he persists on paying peanuts he might still get some monkeys, but even monkeys
will eventually walk if you don't treat them adequately.
“Human nature is such that managers who are out of their depth WILL resort to bullying and coercion;
a poor corporate culture WILL develop. CRM has become just another tool to whip employees
(Captains in original text) over the head - to test them, to tell them they are failing, to blame them.
Frankly, CRM should mean CORPORATE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT - and managers should be tested too.
I think the public would be shocked to know that they aren't.”
(by: Moshansky, Virgil P. Commissioner (1992) Commission of the Inquiry Into the Air Ontario Crash at
Dryden, Ontario, Fifth Report, Volume III, page 1090)
ek-management's arrogance can overcome:
employees will only respect their employer as long as the latter respects mutual contracts and
makes every effort to stick to promisses.
employees will always serve customers in reflection of treatment endured from their employer.
too many resignations or lack of suitable applications reflect uncompetitive or unbearable t&c’s,
more often a combination thereof.
failure to timely tackle such problems not only agravates the internal situation, it also fuels
the competition.
subsequent fading morale is a early warning sign of incapable management, mostly paired with
the ineptitude or unwillingness to counteract. the ineviteable successors face exponential costs
to repair the damage the customer can not be made to pay for. it will therefore once more be
burdened upon employees, fuelling a vicious spiral (see above).
to blame it on employees for not speaking up, or on middle management for covering up, is nonsense.
it is the downright responsibility of the leaders to get the complete picture and act accordingly.
hh sa must act or settle for second or third best in this region. slumping ratings or empty classrooms
speak for themselves. if he persists on paying peanuts he might still get some monkeys, but even monkeys
will eventually walk if you don't treat them adequately.
“Human nature is such that managers who are out of their depth WILL resort to bullying and coercion;
a poor corporate culture WILL develop. CRM has become just another tool to whip employees
(Captains in original text) over the head - to test them, to tell them they are failing, to blame them.
Frankly, CRM should mean CORPORATE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT - and managers should be tested too.
I think the public would be shocked to know that they aren't.”
(by: Moshansky, Virgil P. Commissioner (1992) Commission of the Inquiry Into the Air Ontario Crash at
Dryden, Ontario, Fifth Report, Volume III, page 1090)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Global Nomad
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just call me Cher....
I know my early return will gain some vitriolic response, like I give a ****.
Since my last post there have been seven new posts. OK make that ten, it took a while to write this one. How the hell would I ever write quickly enough to gain an MBA? Anyway, three of them are brilliantly written by articulate people and are worthy of a reply. I've ignored the identity crisis bits that they included.
Shake
Last paragraph, couldn't agree more. As you said, the same flexibility in our contracts should be utilised to turn things around. I'm not holding my breath though.
As for being spineless, Jack London was spineless. I'm a realist.
Gillegan
It may only be a technicality, but it's important to me. Thank you for acknowledging the fact all the same.
Your 2nd paragraph, no argument from me. Very succinct.
3rd para....sorry, find another lure...
SecurID
2nd para, got to be careful out there. Look after yourself, because no one else will. Now that's different to being spineless, in the climate we work in (Middle East, no employment law), it’s downright sensible.
3rd para. Thank you, but I don't need any examples. Just like you I live with it every day but you are quite correct.
4th para. How long have I been here? Well let me put it this way, the rudderless years occurred way before Jenkins, just ask EUH. GJ, despite his faults, did introduce a lot of benefits that many take for granted, in other words, it used to be a lot worse. No excuse for dismantling anything though.
5th para. Chief pilots? You forgot Larry, Toni & Terry (rip).
Look, your whole post is good reading because it tells some facts and, although emotive, it's the right kind of emotion because it's not personal. I sincerely hope that the right people do read it because it's good stuff.
Don't think I'm going all soft though guys, I am still reasonably content here, I just don't sweat the small stuff. Before anyone vents fire into my modem, small stuff is only relative to an individual. The big picture is still ok for me, but like anything, it could change overnight.
On a completely different note....bring on the sequel to "The Caravan".
I know my early return will gain some vitriolic response, like I give a ****.
Since my last post there have been seven new posts. OK make that ten, it took a while to write this one. How the hell would I ever write quickly enough to gain an MBA? Anyway, three of them are brilliantly written by articulate people and are worthy of a reply. I've ignored the identity crisis bits that they included.
Shake
Last paragraph, couldn't agree more. As you said, the same flexibility in our contracts should be utilised to turn things around. I'm not holding my breath though.
As for being spineless, Jack London was spineless. I'm a realist.
Gillegan
It may only be a technicality, but it's important to me. Thank you for acknowledging the fact all the same.
Your 2nd paragraph, no argument from me. Very succinct.
3rd para....sorry, find another lure...
SecurID
2nd para, got to be careful out there. Look after yourself, because no one else will. Now that's different to being spineless, in the climate we work in (Middle East, no employment law), it’s downright sensible.
3rd para. Thank you, but I don't need any examples. Just like you I live with it every day but you are quite correct.
4th para. How long have I been here? Well let me put it this way, the rudderless years occurred way before Jenkins, just ask EUH. GJ, despite his faults, did introduce a lot of benefits that many take for granted, in other words, it used to be a lot worse. No excuse for dismantling anything though.
5th para. Chief pilots? You forgot Larry, Toni & Terry (rip).
Look, your whole post is good reading because it tells some facts and, although emotive, it's the right kind of emotion because it's not personal. I sincerely hope that the right people do read it because it's good stuff.
Don't think I'm going all soft though guys, I am still reasonably content here, I just don't sweat the small stuff. Before anyone vents fire into my modem, small stuff is only relative to an individual. The big picture is still ok for me, but like anything, it could change overnight.
On a completely different note....bring on the sequel to "The Caravan".
Oh no ! more MBA ,s than we can shake a stick at . I have one too but as always these things have a limited shelf life as theory changes.
It goes like this: GN nice analytical work picking the wheat from the chaff but missing all points made by more direct means .
I refer to Turtleneck who covers the main issues and uses reference material from far wiser heads than all of us .
The cabin crews are dropping like flies , picked off from flights as they go through security at CBC to crew a flight that departs 15 mins earlier in the hope that the reseve will turn up for the original flight. This occurs continually so I presume finally we have a skeleton crew for the last flight of the day ?
We are not in the classroom now, so between us where do all these Admin people come from ? far too many and totally innefective in fact more an irritant than of any use .. cut back by at least half !.
I could go on and offer some meaningful ideas but in the end I,m just a line Pilot as are all of my frustrated professional colleagues ,I have to say the discussion has been interesting , get yourself down to the front lines and you just might make a difference you seem to be a little frustrated yourself ?
Jack
It goes like this: GN nice analytical work picking the wheat from the chaff but missing all points made by more direct means .
I refer to Turtleneck who covers the main issues and uses reference material from far wiser heads than all of us .
The cabin crews are dropping like flies , picked off from flights as they go through security at CBC to crew a flight that departs 15 mins earlier in the hope that the reseve will turn up for the original flight. This occurs continually so I presume finally we have a skeleton crew for the last flight of the day ?
We are not in the classroom now, so between us where do all these Admin people come from ? far too many and totally innefective in fact more an irritant than of any use .. cut back by at least half !.
I could go on and offer some meaningful ideas but in the end I,m just a line Pilot as are all of my frustrated professional colleagues ,I have to say the discussion has been interesting , get yourself down to the front lines and you just might make a difference you seem to be a little frustrated yourself ?
Jack
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: dubai
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As the "Ex EK Manager" with the limited financial authority (being pedantic, it was actually a USD 500 limit and I had 50 odd staff), I find this thread alarming.
There seems to be a major disconnect between the front line folks (Flight deck / Cabin crew) and the management. This is not the way to take EK forward to becoming a major, global airline.
When I joined EK, it WAS a great place to work in the sense of a small Airline that was getting international attention. We were winning awards regularly (anyone remember the free Airline of the Year staff tickets) and there was a real focus on quality as the EK ethos. More importantly, I felt part of a team that was working together to build a major aviation presence.
That all seems to have gone down the toilet. I left when I could no longer make a difference (IE, my decisions had to be ratified by several layers above me that had absolutely no knowledge of what they were deciding on). Please do not be to harsh on the middle managers because they have been emasculated.
My own opinion.....if you don't like it any more......Leave !!!!.
There seems to be a major disconnect between the front line folks (Flight deck / Cabin crew) and the management. This is not the way to take EK forward to becoming a major, global airline.
When I joined EK, it WAS a great place to work in the sense of a small Airline that was getting international attention. We were winning awards regularly (anyone remember the free Airline of the Year staff tickets) and there was a real focus on quality as the EK ethos. More importantly, I felt part of a team that was working together to build a major aviation presence.
That all seems to have gone down the toilet. I left when I could no longer make a difference (IE, my decisions had to be ratified by several layers above me that had absolutely no knowledge of what they were deciding on). Please do not be to harsh on the middle managers because they have been emasculated.
My own opinion.....if you don't like it any more......Leave !!!!.