Advce to EK (bewildered) Hopeful
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Advce to EK (bewildered) Hopeful
Just wondering with all the unhappy EK drivers whether its worth showing up for the interview. A bit of background first: currently an FO with 7000+ hrs with 4000+ on jets above 70tonne. Company tells me 737NG command in 2-3 years...question is...what is the time to command for someone in my position if I join EK..I am talking about actual figures and not what is expected please...anyone.
35Nth
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1200 PILOTS. BEST CASE 500 FO'S,PROBABLY MORE. IF YOUR LUCKY 100 UPGRADES A YEAR.
EASY MATH.
OF COURSE IF THINGS CONTINUE AS THEY ARE, HALF THOSE FO'S WILL RESIGN AND YOU WILL SHOOT UP THE LIST AND HAVE A COMMAND BEFORE YOU KNOW IT.
ALWAYS WORTH COMMING OUT FOR A LOOK BUT THINK LONG AND HARD BEFORE HANDING IN THAT RESIGNATION.
NT
EASY MATH.
OF COURSE IF THINGS CONTINUE AS THEY ARE, HALF THOSE FO'S WILL RESIGN AND YOU WILL SHOOT UP THE LIST AND HAVE A COMMAND BEFORE YOU KNOW IT.
ALWAYS WORTH COMMING OUT FOR A LOOK BUT THINK LONG AND HARD BEFORE HANDING IN THAT RESIGNATION.
NT
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Dear Mr 35,
Congrats on your interview. My advice (or 2 cents worth!) is that you should, by all means, attend your interview. It will allow you a chance to look physically at Dubai (and bring your wife/significant other, so she can also), and also gain a feel for EK itself throughout the interview process. But remember, the process is run by professional people who all have opinions: that they can't tell you. They have their instructions, and their responsibility is to the company primarily, not you.
So......... no matter what you are told during that process, keep the following in mind.
Should you decide to take the job, you should plan on minimum 5 years to command, do all your financial calculations for that 5 years based on your joining salary, and assume no increase in any benefit like education, housing etc. Also assume an annual inflation rate of 5-10%. To do otherwise will give rise to expectations that may not eventuate, and you will likely get dissappointed the first time an expectation is not met.
Your best chance of enjoying your time here is to set very low expectations on the T&C front, have your own life away from work, and consider any improvement a bonus. Do your time to achieve your own goals, and move on.
I am not being negative: it's a business decision, not an emotive one. You are the "business" in this equation and should assess your own marketability and income potential over your projected time in this "business". If you work out a direct comparison between EK and your present company, using the method above, then wherever the numbers point you will be making an informed decision.
Good Luck with whatever decision you make.
Regards,
CTOAN
Congrats on your interview. My advice (or 2 cents worth!) is that you should, by all means, attend your interview. It will allow you a chance to look physically at Dubai (and bring your wife/significant other, so she can also), and also gain a feel for EK itself throughout the interview process. But remember, the process is run by professional people who all have opinions: that they can't tell you. They have their instructions, and their responsibility is to the company primarily, not you.
So......... no matter what you are told during that process, keep the following in mind.
Should you decide to take the job, you should plan on minimum 5 years to command, do all your financial calculations for that 5 years based on your joining salary, and assume no increase in any benefit like education, housing etc. Also assume an annual inflation rate of 5-10%. To do otherwise will give rise to expectations that may not eventuate, and you will likely get dissappointed the first time an expectation is not met.
Your best chance of enjoying your time here is to set very low expectations on the T&C front, have your own life away from work, and consider any improvement a bonus. Do your time to achieve your own goals, and move on.
I am not being negative: it's a business decision, not an emotive one. You are the "business" in this equation and should assess your own marketability and income potential over your projected time in this "business". If you work out a direct comparison between EK and your present company, using the method above, then wherever the numbers point you will be making an informed decision.
Good Luck with whatever decision you make.
Regards,
CTOAN
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Thanks for all the positive advice. I have been warned by others as well trust me. Is there an annual salary increment apart form the 4 week profit share? In other words are the salaries factored for inflation. Guessing from CTOANs reply, I would think not.
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EK Advice
By enlarge CTOAN has made an objective assesment of Emirates.
Having said that Emirates is still one of the airlines to work for.
If salary is your prime reason for leaving then it is easy to do the math. do remember that it is tax free .
1) Emirates has an incremental salary and its 3% per year built in. Check out the recent link on PPRUne about 11% salary rise and 10% housing allowance ( incase you dont elect company furnished housing ) and car allowance.
2) If you are looking for a quick command then 3-5 yrs may be a bit too long for you. But remember that it will be on a wide body and on one of latest aircraft with all the kit you can think of.
3) Notwithstanding what you may read on the net about Emirates , the people you work with are a pleasure to work with. While Dubai people and the UAE as a nation are welcoming and tolerant ,yet also proud of their heritage. Dubai is comfortable and secure environment for you and your family.
4) Variable flight and network will challenge you with the variation in types of flying . 20 min flights across to Muscat to ultra long haul 14:00 flight s to Sydney and New York.
5) Last but not least a lot of people have left comparatively higher salaries for a better life style . Beaches , Tax free shopping , Golfing Beachcombing , Security , more time with the family , education etc.
6) some people have left . I cant blame them as this was in direct reaction to the managments poor appreciation on handling the meetings with pilots. Basically poor understanding of conflict management principals
Obvioulsy all may not agee on the above yet the Emirates still has the knack of attracting the right stuff.
I will be the first one to agree that all is not right with Emirates and in particular with flight ops .... but then if it was then what would be the fun in tuning into PPprune.
regards
Bigmountain
Having said that Emirates is still one of the airlines to work for.
If salary is your prime reason for leaving then it is easy to do the math. do remember that it is tax free .
1) Emirates has an incremental salary and its 3% per year built in. Check out the recent link on PPRUne about 11% salary rise and 10% housing allowance ( incase you dont elect company furnished housing ) and car allowance.
2) If you are looking for a quick command then 3-5 yrs may be a bit too long for you. But remember that it will be on a wide body and on one of latest aircraft with all the kit you can think of.
3) Notwithstanding what you may read on the net about Emirates , the people you work with are a pleasure to work with. While Dubai people and the UAE as a nation are welcoming and tolerant ,yet also proud of their heritage. Dubai is comfortable and secure environment for you and your family.
4) Variable flight and network will challenge you with the variation in types of flying . 20 min flights across to Muscat to ultra long haul 14:00 flight s to Sydney and New York.
5) Last but not least a lot of people have left comparatively higher salaries for a better life style . Beaches , Tax free shopping , Golfing Beachcombing , Security , more time with the family , education etc.
6) some people have left . I cant blame them as this was in direct reaction to the managments poor appreciation on handling the meetings with pilots. Basically poor understanding of conflict management principals
Obvioulsy all may not agee on the above yet the Emirates still has the knack of attracting the right stuff.
I will be the first one to agree that all is not right with Emirates and in particular with flight ops .... but then if it was then what would be the fun in tuning into PPprune.
regards
Bigmountain
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They say that families suffer a lot with EK in that crews are constanly on long tours with little time for family. Added to this is the factoring of flying hours where a pilot can do in excess of a 100hrs and yet after factoring falls within CAA limits of under a 100hrs in 28 days. Can someone enlighten me with the facts? I have heard 8-10 days off a month with 76hrs. In a month on average, how many nights is a pilot at home with the family? I have a wife and 2 young kids and that is the main reason I ask..
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8-10 days off a month and 90-100hrs, 76hrs seems to be a thing of the past, thats when you would see @15 days off.
You hear pilots complaining of 100hrs but don't complain about the O/T that goes with it.
All in all not bad not great but not bad.
Biggest frustration I see is the constant under crewing and slow reaction to fix it or the inablitiy to fix due to the shortage of training staff thanks AAR reducing our numbers prematurely.
Cost of living has gone up alot in the last year alone,I think everyone is feeling that.
No shows and upgrades on the 777 means busy summer,lack off MMF crews means busy summer and the 330 is filling in everwhere means busy summer, could be why the upgrades we need on the bus are slow to come.
You hear pilots complaining of 100hrs but don't complain about the O/T that goes with it.
All in all not bad not great but not bad.
Biggest frustration I see is the constant under crewing and slow reaction to fix it or the inablitiy to fix due to the shortage of training staff thanks AAR reducing our numbers prematurely.
Cost of living has gone up alot in the last year alone,I think everyone is feeling that.
No shows and upgrades on the 777 means busy summer,lack off MMF crews means busy summer and the 330 is filling in everwhere means busy summer, could be why the upgrades we need on the bus are slow to come.
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Big mountain,
I was wondering,in your opinion whats the % of people who are really not that happy about EK,I dont think that the % on pprune is not a major % to reflect the trend of most of the company,or am I wrong?
MAX
I was wondering,in your opinion whats the % of people who are really not that happy about EK,I dont think that the % on pprune is not a major % to reflect the trend of most of the company,or am I wrong?
MAX
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Emirates
Max
well if you read between the lines , most people are more dissapointed at the treatment metted out by the management . This is in light of very strong results that Emirates has just announced.
It seems while the pilot community don't have direct forum to point out their concerns , you would hope that in such circumstances Emirates would encourage a strong , objective and effective human resource department that should have its finger on the pulse , not only of its employees but also of the changing conditions in other comparable airlines/companies.
This is done apparently ever year where the compensation package is reviewed. and usually you find that the ailrine pilots get a 3% incremental step and a couple of % extra.
In this regard the Human resourcee people are dragging their feet and not really painting a correct picture . In fact they seem to be taking there cue from their higher managers and presenting a picture of bliss and harmony.
I feel that partially its about the erosion in terms and conditions , but more so, its is the way each change is presented as an improvement and the reasons forwarded to the pilots for the change that have been brought about were taken after careful analysis and it was an improvement in the package. What drives everybody round the bend and pilots included is the thought of being taken for a ride.
If the management justs came out an stated that in order to remain competitive they were resorting to these interim measure,then I'm sure you would have alot of people responding on this forum differently.
Presently the Flt Ops does not have a Head of Flight Ops (Senior Vice President) . The post is vacant since TCK was eased out . No outsider has been selected or agreed to join, while the remainder VPs are doing the job in the hope of being promoted . So nobody is really prepared to stick their neck out for the pilots in such conditions.
The crew are venting their feelings at various forums, PPRUNe, the Coffee room at the office , on the flight deck and hopefully good sense prevails and Emirates continues its expansions plans uninterrupted under a more farsighted managemnt team .
Regards
Bigmountain
well if you read between the lines , most people are more dissapointed at the treatment metted out by the management . This is in light of very strong results that Emirates has just announced.
It seems while the pilot community don't have direct forum to point out their concerns , you would hope that in such circumstances Emirates would encourage a strong , objective and effective human resource department that should have its finger on the pulse , not only of its employees but also of the changing conditions in other comparable airlines/companies.
This is done apparently ever year where the compensation package is reviewed. and usually you find that the ailrine pilots get a 3% incremental step and a couple of % extra.
In this regard the Human resourcee people are dragging their feet and not really painting a correct picture . In fact they seem to be taking there cue from their higher managers and presenting a picture of bliss and harmony.
I feel that partially its about the erosion in terms and conditions , but more so, its is the way each change is presented as an improvement and the reasons forwarded to the pilots for the change that have been brought about were taken after careful analysis and it was an improvement in the package. What drives everybody round the bend and pilots included is the thought of being taken for a ride.
If the management justs came out an stated that in order to remain competitive they were resorting to these interim measure,then I'm sure you would have alot of people responding on this forum differently.
Presently the Flt Ops does not have a Head of Flight Ops (Senior Vice President) . The post is vacant since TCK was eased out . No outsider has been selected or agreed to join, while the remainder VPs are doing the job in the hope of being promoted . So nobody is really prepared to stick their neck out for the pilots in such conditions.
The crew are venting their feelings at various forums, PPRUNe, the Coffee room at the office , on the flight deck and hopefully good sense prevails and Emirates continues its expansions plans uninterrupted under a more farsighted managemnt team .
Regards
Bigmountain
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Strange, but 95% of the people I fly with are content and 5% aren't but I think most people who have a degree of familiarity with your posts can see that you would have a highly-developed ability to bring out the worst in people.
Your degree of childish self-regard is so toe-curlingly embarassing that one is forced to avert one's eyes. Haven't you been threatening to leave a lot?
Please, PM me. I'll drive you to the airport.
Your degree of childish self-regard is so toe-curlingly embarassing that one is forced to avert one's eyes. Haven't you been threatening to leave a lot?
Please, PM me. I'll drive you to the airport.
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Semen splodges!! You are full of sh1t like many who post here. The ones that I have time for are the ones who put their money where their mouths are - and pull the plug if they don't like it!
Most pilots that I know here at EK are frustrated! But they are optimists - sure there are things that need sorting out, such as pay, upgrades, but no different to many other airlines all over the world. And before you even think of it, no, I am not management, nor am I in recruiting
Things wil get better - they have to if EK wants to make a go of it
Oh yeah , the next d1psh1t that wants to send me a nasty PM, why don't you come say it to my face - DON will tell you who I am!!!!!!
Most pilots that I know here at EK are frustrated! But they are optimists - sure there are things that need sorting out, such as pay, upgrades, but no different to many other airlines all over the world. And before you even think of it, no, I am not management, nor am I in recruiting
Things wil get better - they have to if EK wants to make a go of it
Oh yeah , the next d1psh1t that wants to send me a nasty PM, why don't you come say it to my face - DON will tell you who I am!!!!!!
No Don wont...not the done thing old fella.
Don
Don
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White Knight - take a chill pill.
Most guys at EK are optimists - they have to be, otherwise the frustrations that the company puts in their way would drive them potty. Like most people here I think that EK could be a great place to work, great route network, new aircraft etc but it is marred by the management.
SS says a few true things that may not be palatable to some, but it is a bit imature to immediately come out and say you either put up or ship out. This forum is a great way to say what you think and let off steam so you can go to work with it off your chest.
Most guys at EK are optimists - they have to be, otherwise the frustrations that the company puts in their way would drive them potty. Like most people here I think that EK could be a great place to work, great route network, new aircraft etc but it is marred by the management.
SS says a few true things that may not be palatable to some, but it is a bit imature to immediately come out and say you either put up or ship out. This forum is a great way to say what you think and let off steam so you can go to work with it off your chest.
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MC - fair enough mate, however it is a tad tedious that whenever someone posts something positive or possibly good about Dubai or EK they get shot down in flames by one or two who suffer from the eternal "sky falling on their head" syndrome
Yes, this forum is a two way thing - but because I may disagree with some comments does not put me into the "management" team
Yes, this forum is a two way thing - but because I may disagree with some comments does not put me into the "management" team
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White Knight, if you are really so very happy, then why bother posting at all? These forums are not exactly an honest SitRep are they? Whether good or bad stuff is brought up. There is always the emotional, post glass of wine rant that winds people up. You are a relatively well known Ppruner, and your posts always do look at the optimistic side, but they are too optimistic to be true. By making this place out to to be better than it really is, is just as bad as saying how ****e the place is. Therefore I would humbly suggest that you just get on with the rest of your happy career here or go back and sell cameras.
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35N, I posted on this subject a while ago. Here is one more thing:
One of several reasons why I told EK "thank you, but no thank you" is that everybody I talked to during the process - from the lady showing us around the first day via the guy at the training facility doing his upgrade to the chief pilot type in charge of interviewing us - gave me the impression that had they known then what they know now they probably wouldn't have made the same choices.
Even as they were trying to convince me to join.
The grass is always greener over the septic tank.
One of several reasons why I told EK "thank you, but no thank you" is that everybody I talked to during the process - from the lady showing us around the first day via the guy at the training facility doing his upgrade to the chief pilot type in charge of interviewing us - gave me the impression that had they known then what they know now they probably wouldn't have made the same choices.
Even as they were trying to convince me to join.
The grass is always greener over the septic tank.
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Well guys,as I have said before I am waiting for my interview results at EK and I hope I get through,but I'd like to point out that all what you are bothered of is relative to where you used to work before you joined EK,it's only human nature to seek what is better,but its also human nature to forget what your old company was like and that EK must have seemed a lot better when you decided to join.
To make my point clear,my current dompany is a national flag carrier in the arab world, we'r dealing with crap x-military managment,and our T&C's are nothing to compare with EK's,plus all I get as a F/O is around 2000$,which is crumbs,and thats all I get PERIOD,ie,no schooling,medical,housing,tickets, mind you erp!!!!
From my current position,EK seems like heaven,but please put your self in my shoes,so as much as I would like to be a member of EK's flight deck,as I think all of you did when you were also waiting for your interview results,I dont think I'll ever forget what my previous company was like and a day comes when I am soooooo pissed off at EK as most of you are,that I'll regret joining.
(I hope some one from recruitment reads this)
Over and Out
MAX
To make my point clear,my current dompany is a national flag carrier in the arab world, we'r dealing with crap x-military managment,and our T&C's are nothing to compare with EK's,plus all I get as a F/O is around 2000$,which is crumbs,and thats all I get PERIOD,ie,no schooling,medical,housing,tickets, mind you erp!!!!
From my current position,EK seems like heaven,but please put your self in my shoes,so as much as I would like to be a member of EK's flight deck,as I think all of you did when you were also waiting for your interview results,I dont think I'll ever forget what my previous company was like and a day comes when I am soooooo pissed off at EK as most of you are,that I'll regret joining.
(I hope some one from recruitment reads this)
Over and Out
MAX