Dubai ATC
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I think that the E/O procedures are elaborated by the performance departements of airlines...They must be utilising performance models from manufacturers... I think, second guessing a procedure is a big gamble, if we think something is wrong, it should be forwarded to the appropriate people into the airline...
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someone was fired ... being too "disruptive"....
I take it you mean 'disruptive' at work? Bagging procedures etc?
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Gentlemen,
Please forgive me but as a foreign B777 operator to DXB, I'm pretty sure that our engine failure procedure is to climb straight ahead and within 12 miles yell to ATC that you need assistance..... We have never discussed this procedure with DXB ATC, nor do i believe are we legally obliged to! Our purpose in designing engine out procedures is to obtain the maximum takeoff weight possible.
I may stand to be corrected when i check the Jeppesens tomorrow, however i would find it strange to find an engine failure procedure published by the authorities........
Mutt.
Please forgive me but as a foreign B777 operator to DXB, I'm pretty sure that our engine failure procedure is to climb straight ahead and within 12 miles yell to ATC that you need assistance..... We have never discussed this procedure with DXB ATC, nor do i believe are we legally obliged to! Our purpose in designing engine out procedures is to obtain the maximum takeoff weight possible.
I may stand to be corrected when i check the Jeppesens tomorrow, however i would find it strange to find an engine failure procedure published by the authorities........
Mutt.
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I think you'll find that ATC or the local authority would buy in if your home grown procedure infringed (for instance) restricted or prohibited airspace, Mutt. There are royal palaces quite near DXB, and Sharjah, which can be very busy itself, is only 10 miles away. I believe ATC would become very interested if your procedure had you either overflying a palace or dragging yourself through the Sharjah circuit.
Is there an ATC person out there who'd care to comment? I don't like the 'enter the hold and climb to 3000 feet' procedure for 12 either. Can't see it ever happening, so why is it the published procedure when you're almost certain to do something else? Is it ATC who insist it remains the way it is for EK, or are EK management telling porky pies to whoever it was who asked them to have it changed?
Is there an ATC person out there who'd care to comment? I don't like the 'enter the hold and climb to 3000 feet' procedure for 12 either. Can't see it ever happening, so why is it the published procedure when you're almost certain to do something else? Is it ATC who insist it remains the way it is for EK, or are EK management telling porky pies to whoever it was who asked them to have it changed?
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Dropp the Pilot wrote:
I think you do not realise were you would be after reaching 1500 ft.
If climb limited at 2.4 % it would take you around 10 Nm and another 8 Nm to reach the clean speed. That is 18 Nm from your runway and only 7 Nm from the aera covered by the MSA.
The only area that is really cheked for obstacles is the one checked and published by the performance department. Once you go outside that area you have to know dammed good what you are doing.
Proceeding to a holding pattern at 3000 ft is flying towards an area that is checked for obstacles and that gives you the time to get prepared for the approach in all safety.
Going on a walk at 1500 ft and 220 kts in an area of high MSA during split cockpit operations is sign of bad airmanship.
Dropp the Pilot wrote:
Getting away from obstacles and into an area of which you are certain is exactely what you achieve by going into a hold.
Thats what holds are made for, to get done what is needed in a safe area, before you go any further.
The engine out procedure is something that the company requires to have in print to prove that an airplane may safely continue a take-off with one engine out. I would climb to 1500 ft and turn........
I think you do not realise were you would be after reaching 1500 ft.
If climb limited at 2.4 % it would take you around 10 Nm and another 8 Nm to reach the clean speed. That is 18 Nm from your runway and only 7 Nm from the aera covered by the MSA.
The only area that is really cheked for obstacles is the one checked and published by the performance department. Once you go outside that area you have to know dammed good what you are doing.
Proceeding to a holding pattern at 3000 ft is flying towards an area that is checked for obstacles and that gives you the time to get prepared for the approach in all safety.
Going on a walk at 1500 ft and 220 kts in an area of high MSA during split cockpit operations is sign of bad airmanship.
Dropp the Pilot wrote:
But to enter a hold on one engine and stagger up to 3000 just because the BLT tag line told you too, well - that\'s the kind of programmatical thinking that should disqualify people from command.
Thats what holds are made for, to get done what is needed in a safe area, before you go any further.
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Better just to tell ATC you have a problem and that you ARE TURNING towards the coast and to kindly clear everyone else out of the way. A Mayday prefixed to your call would be of great help. ATC are not flying the aeroplane - you are...
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White Knight
It is really very simple. Pans Ops covers the all engine profile and the company is legally responsible for the (n-1) profile till 1500 ft.
Basically speaking, there are differences between different airlines, some ops departments cover you till the minimum requirement of 1500 ft and some use a wider area, wind profiles then others and will even cover you until the enroute structure and then you are on you own.
If you deviate from the area and subsequent routing that has been checked by the company then you can do so under an emergency, but you have to have a dammed good reason to do so.
As far as ATC s concerned, they are responsible for separation with other aircraft (depending on the class of airspace, I presume you are in a CTR most of he time) and the pilot in command is responsible for obstacle clearance.
Basically what the performance department will do is to give you a routing straight ahead with an acceleration segment for cleaning up the aircraft. Only if payload is that much affected by obstacles will they give you a routing with a turn.
In my previous airline the chief pilot had obliged the perfo dep (for certain complicated aeroports) to put the (n-1) routing on the SID whatever the cost in payload.
If you decide to clean up the aircraft then you are trading your climb gradient for acceleration towards a speed with less drag.
If the decision was made to return to the field of departure then that is not necessarily the thing you want to do. You may then elect to climb instead to a minimum of (MSA -700) as this altitude will cover you with the minimum obstacle clearance.
The only other option you have for an early turn is to use the protected area for circling approaches and the circling MDA.
If you are sure you can meet the required climb gradient of the SID you may elect to stay on the SID because that is where ATC will expect you to be and they organise their flow management around that principle.
1% climb gradient is about 60ft/Nm so 2,4 % is about 150 ft / Nm and you will need 10Nm till 1500ft and a bit more than 20 Nm for 3000 ft since you will not be able to maintain the 2.4 % due to engine performance and the fact that you accelerate in TAS with IAS constant.
It is of course your right to call a mayday and throw you aircraft in the hands of ATC and have them remove all other traffic. But, ATC are human beings just saying you are responsible to get the others out of he way is not the same as achieving that.
On a busy airport a simple go around under normal conditions already starts some kind of domino effect upon the other traffic with all consequences indeed.
Depending on the nature of the failure you will need considerable time to get ready for the approach probably with some dumping in an area that has been designed for that.
So I can very well imagine that ATC has some preferences as to confine the aircraft to a designated holding area to reduce the knock on effect on other traffic and take it from here.
As a pilot I also prefer to get in a hold thereby reducing the crew load and he effect of the split cockpit.
So if ATC requests you to go to the hold and you can comply with that request in a safe manner then that’s the best thing to do.
In order to get to the MHA and achieve that objective quickly you may elect to delay the acceleration or not accelerate at all.
Definitely will you not accelerate until all turns are completed since that achieves nothing good if you are in a (n-1) configuration.
Early turns in VMC at an airport you know are acceptable but what did you really achieve with that except anything else than a complete surprise to ATC who may well argue that under those circumstances can not reasonably be expected to continue to cater for separation.
Finally, since most operations are carried out from home base I think it’s a good idea that management talks to ATC and work out a plan beforehand.
Edited for clarity:
With climb to (MSA -700) I mean climb straight ahead till (MSA -700) before you want to make any turn if you have elected to deviate from he standard profile.
It is really very simple. Pans Ops covers the all engine profile and the company is legally responsible for the (n-1) profile till 1500 ft.
Basically speaking, there are differences between different airlines, some ops departments cover you till the minimum requirement of 1500 ft and some use a wider area, wind profiles then others and will even cover you until the enroute structure and then you are on you own.
If you deviate from the area and subsequent routing that has been checked by the company then you can do so under an emergency, but you have to have a dammed good reason to do so.
As far as ATC s concerned, they are responsible for separation with other aircraft (depending on the class of airspace, I presume you are in a CTR most of he time) and the pilot in command is responsible for obstacle clearance.
Basically what the performance department will do is to give you a routing straight ahead with an acceleration segment for cleaning up the aircraft. Only if payload is that much affected by obstacles will they give you a routing with a turn.
In my previous airline the chief pilot had obliged the perfo dep (for certain complicated aeroports) to put the (n-1) routing on the SID whatever the cost in payload.
If you decide to clean up the aircraft then you are trading your climb gradient for acceleration towards a speed with less drag.
If the decision was made to return to the field of departure then that is not necessarily the thing you want to do. You may then elect to climb instead to a minimum of (MSA -700) as this altitude will cover you with the minimum obstacle clearance.
The only other option you have for an early turn is to use the protected area for circling approaches and the circling MDA.
If you are sure you can meet the required climb gradient of the SID you may elect to stay on the SID because that is where ATC will expect you to be and they organise their flow management around that principle.
1% climb gradient is about 60ft/Nm so 2,4 % is about 150 ft / Nm and you will need 10Nm till 1500ft and a bit more than 20 Nm for 3000 ft since you will not be able to maintain the 2.4 % due to engine performance and the fact that you accelerate in TAS with IAS constant.
It is of course your right to call a mayday and throw you aircraft in the hands of ATC and have them remove all other traffic. But, ATC are human beings just saying you are responsible to get the others out of he way is not the same as achieving that.
On a busy airport a simple go around under normal conditions already starts some kind of domino effect upon the other traffic with all consequences indeed.
Depending on the nature of the failure you will need considerable time to get ready for the approach probably with some dumping in an area that has been designed for that.
So I can very well imagine that ATC has some preferences as to confine the aircraft to a designated holding area to reduce the knock on effect on other traffic and take it from here.
As a pilot I also prefer to get in a hold thereby reducing the crew load and he effect of the split cockpit.
So if ATC requests you to go to the hold and you can comply with that request in a safe manner then that’s the best thing to do.
In order to get to the MHA and achieve that objective quickly you may elect to delay the acceleration or not accelerate at all.
Definitely will you not accelerate until all turns are completed since that achieves nothing good if you are in a (n-1) configuration.
Early turns in VMC at an airport you know are acceptable but what did you really achieve with that except anything else than a complete surprise to ATC who may well argue that under those circumstances can not reasonably be expected to continue to cater for separation.
Finally, since most operations are carried out from home base I think it’s a good idea that management talks to ATC and work out a plan beforehand.
Edited for clarity:
With climb to (MSA -700) I mean climb straight ahead till (MSA -700) before you want to make any turn if you have elected to deviate from he standard profile.
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What about the emergency turns at certain airports like MCT, SHZ, THR.? Given the language problem from the latter two airports can you just imagine, after losing a donk, on take off, "calmly "!!!!!,telling atc, ( that is the requirement), that you will be turning this way or that to intercept some radial and stagger up to some altitude. Almost certainly you are going to get, "say again", and then possibly dead silence, as the beautiful day gets shattered, for both of you.Rome F, a case in point, where our E/turn can take you right across, another active runway. Bet that would open up a few eyeballs. Maybe that is why a lot of aircraft have brown seats. What colour in atc? It would appear, that every airline has it's own proceedures, based on the aircraft they operate, and the performance differences. Do the controllers know this?
Also can someone give a definition of "high speed", which we are often asked to maintain. Above approx FL 300 we are using Mach, not IAS. I have heard controllers asking for over 300kts descending thru FL 380. Not possible. Below about,FL 300, generally, but not always, we can descend at round about 300 kts IAS +,and increase as we get lower. Depending on type, turbulence speed ( my A/C ) is .78/290 kts, and 250 kts below 10000' AGL, but definately no faster than 250 kts below 5000' AGL, otherwise it's into the office. I am pretty sure most types of big jet have similar restrictions. Comments ?
Also can someone give a definition of "high speed", which we are often asked to maintain. Above approx FL 300 we are using Mach, not IAS. I have heard controllers asking for over 300kts descending thru FL 380. Not possible. Below about,FL 300, generally, but not always, we can descend at round about 300 kts IAS +,and increase as we get lower. Depending on type, turbulence speed ( my A/C ) is .78/290 kts, and 250 kts below 10000' AGL, but definately no faster than 250 kts below 5000' AGL, otherwise it's into the office. I am pretty sure most types of big jet have similar restrictions. Comments ?
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Tic
The Area controller (in AUH) is the guy giving this instruction, as he is deciding the 'gate sequence'. He is fully aware (usually) that you are on a Mach no., but wants you to transition into a high IAS. That will vary, of course, between type, operator etc. What he is really saying is he doesn't want you to waft on down doing 270kts or so. So 310kts IAS or higher would be considered 'high speed'. If you can't give higher speed (due turb or whatever), then just let him know. This guy may also ask for slow types to give 'high speed' , but he knows that high speed might be 240kts instead of 220kts. That may be enough in a given situation to make something work. The geometry of say, the DESDI gate sequence, means that a combination of speed, vectoring and direct tracking are used to obtain spacing. So having some idea of what speed you will be doing is extremely useful (and with the limited space available there- essential). This guy owns down to 10,000', then DXB App takes you and may change the speed to fit you into the 'runway sequence' with traffic from other gates. By the time App gets you, you will be sequenced with same gate traffic, and speed is nowhere near as important closer in as a different technique to sequence will then be used. App is fully aware of the speed capabilities and limtations, but it never hurts to keep ATC informed.
Also can someone give a definition of "high speed",
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ferris
Tks mate, you answered my question, but surely it would make your life easier, and mine too, if it could be published. I am quite sure that Airbus and Boeing have very similar speeds, especially regarding turbulence, which you may or may not have. Having flown in Africa, and having a Vulture injested, I am not keen at all in maintaining 250 kts above 10000' agl, because of windscreen limiitations. It wouldn't be a pretty sight to have a bird that big, hit the winscreen, at"high speed". I know you don't get birds that big in this part of the world generally but even a falcon on the windscreen at 310 kts is like having a brick thrown at you. As you say, if you not happy, then say something, before it all goes pear-shaped. Works both ways. Different airlines have different SOP's , which have to be adhered to, otherwise, it's the walk up the gang-plank.
You Guys do a great job, and thanks for that,even though you have language problems, with the nationalities that fly in this region,so do we, and the restrictions placed on you that us pilots don't even know about.Read the whole forum and all of you seem just a trifle p----d off. You have the "big picture"on your screens, we only have a little one. Be sure, most of us will try our best to do what you want us to do, even if we don't like it. Speed control and standard set up, for the big guys anyway, if adhered to,would help you a lot I think. BIG message, if you can't, say so.
Tks mate, you answered my question, but surely it would make your life easier, and mine too, if it could be published. I am quite sure that Airbus and Boeing have very similar speeds, especially regarding turbulence, which you may or may not have. Having flown in Africa, and having a Vulture injested, I am not keen at all in maintaining 250 kts above 10000' agl, because of windscreen limiitations. It wouldn't be a pretty sight to have a bird that big, hit the winscreen, at"high speed". I know you don't get birds that big in this part of the world generally but even a falcon on the windscreen at 310 kts is like having a brick thrown at you. As you say, if you not happy, then say something, before it all goes pear-shaped. Works both ways. Different airlines have different SOP's , which have to be adhered to, otherwise, it's the walk up the gang-plank.
You Guys do a great job, and thanks for that,even though you have language problems, with the nationalities that fly in this region,so do we, and the restrictions placed on you that us pilots don't even know about.Read the whole forum and all of you seem just a trifle p----d off. You have the "big picture"on your screens, we only have a little one. Be sure, most of us will try our best to do what you want us to do, even if we don't like it. Speed control and standard set up, for the big guys anyway, if adhered to,would help you a lot I think. BIG message, if you can't, say so.
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I agree with Ferris, but I also would like to say, that the term "high speed" must be one of the most wishy washy terms used here. One pilots interpretation of high speed is different to anothers. Personall I like to ask what speed on descent a pilot can maintain, and set it at that. Otherwise you tell a guy high speed and it turns out he has decided that 290 kts. is high enough for today, and conversely, another guy squeezes 340kts out of his machine when asked for high speed. Its a bit like asking a pilot to give you a good rate of climb. An Air France 742 thinks he is giving you a good rate of climb if he gives you 500 ft a minute, while an MD11 will give you 3,000ft a minute. Personally I try and nail down what everyone is doing so everyone is on the same page, and then if any of the pilots can't hold up their end of the agreement, they speak up so the plan can be tweaked.
Just an aside, if you are on departure, and you experience turbulence (and you are a Gulf Air A330, not to name names at all), and you pull back to 260kts, with a company aircraft clearly on your TCAS 11 NM behind also climbing, would you please say something to ATC about reducing your speed dramatically. It certainly changes the colour of the ATC chairs when the following company traffic doesnn't experience said turbulence, and continues on at 320kts, and all of a sudden you have 100kts ground speed closing. Even without anyone on TCAS, if you pull back by 50 or 60 kts indicated, please tell us. We are very interested in these things, believe me!
Just an aside, if you are on departure, and you experience turbulence (and you are a Gulf Air A330, not to name names at all), and you pull back to 260kts, with a company aircraft clearly on your TCAS 11 NM behind also climbing, would you please say something to ATC about reducing your speed dramatically. It certainly changes the colour of the ATC chairs when the following company traffic doesnn't experience said turbulence, and continues on at 320kts, and all of a sudden you have 100kts ground speed closing. Even without anyone on TCAS, if you pull back by 50 or 60 kts indicated, please tell us. We are very interested in these things, believe me!
