Dubai ATC
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From what I have been told, APP owns the bottom 2 levels of the stack (say 10000' and 11000'). Area drops them to 12000', then hands them off. As 12000' is vacated, next one to 12000' and handed off. This way APP can keep them in the hold at 10 and 11, and bring them out as they see fit (you want 2 levels, so that you can control the spacing). It could work for any levels (say 8 and 9 even). Just a different way of thinking about jurisdiction. Essentially the area guy is thinking like this anyway, once you start holding. He purely reverts to levels during holding, which is why sometimes you have aircraft calling APP when they are not even pointing inbound. They have been told to turn in, call APP. The next one in is being seperated by vertical, but just spaced with lateral, so the area guy doesn't need to be talking to the bottom A/C in the stack. So, instead of APP 'owning' a set distance from the runway (the gate), they own the levels underneath the hold. This could be switched on and off as required. It's much more efficient, because instead of area sending them all in 10 miles apart or whatever, APP knows when they need a gap for an AUH arrival etc and can control their own inbound flow.
ps. Several pilots have told me that they would much prefer to take the delay in the hold, then just go straight in. It peeves them to come out of the hold, then get vectored all over the terminal area. I think the above scenario would alleviate that (which is caused by the current crappy system). It's frustrating to sit and watch the beautiful stream you have worked to create go to hell in the terminal area, because there are a couple in from the east and 1 from AUH. There has to be a better way.
ps. Several pilots have told me that they would much prefer to take the delay in the hold, then just go straight in. It peeves them to come out of the hold, then get vectored all over the terminal area. I think the above scenario would alleviate that (which is caused by the current crappy system). It's frustrating to sit and watch the beautiful stream you have worked to create go to hell in the terminal area, because there are a couple in from the east and 1 from AUH. There has to be a better way.
Last edited by ferris; 13th Jan 2004 at 11:12.
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Hi guys
Just a point about the start sequencing in DXB,when its busy everybody always seems to get started,taxied and cleared for takeoff in the sequence they called.
This is all very gentleman like but at times not very practical.Often you will have 5 departures on the same track in a row which I'm sure makes things difficult for the departure controller catching them.
Would it not make more sense to sequence traffic as much as is possible,one left turn departure ,one strait ahead,one right,one left etc.
I'm sure this would also help the ACC controllers and help everybody get there levels and reduce time between departures.Another thing that will help traffic flow is to have departures out of SHJ route north to RAK before on track to aid seperation from DXB traffic.
Just a point about the start sequencing in DXB,when its busy everybody always seems to get started,taxied and cleared for takeoff in the sequence they called.
This is all very gentleman like but at times not very practical.Often you will have 5 departures on the same track in a row which I'm sure makes things difficult for the departure controller catching them.
Would it not make more sense to sequence traffic as much as is possible,one left turn departure ,one strait ahead,one right,one left etc.
I'm sure this would also help the ACC controllers and help everybody get there levels and reduce time between departures.Another thing that will help traffic flow is to have departures out of SHJ route north to RAK before on track to aid seperation from DXB traffic.
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Ok with ya all the way Ferris, giving us the hold or at least the bottom few levels will let us control the spacing much better. The current system forces area controllers into doing the sequencing, not their job at all and they only have half the picture. If we could just get that 
Dane to stop playing politics and apply some logic..........sorry forgot where I am living there 
As for prefering to stay in the hold, would love to keep you there but as it stands our only flexibilty is in the vectoring hence the scenic tours. Ferris is the only coordination between North/West & East sectors done by Dubai Cod?
As for the start ups, usual problem with everyone wanting to go the same way at the same time, plus our local tower only atcos sometimes don't pick up on the bigger picture. As it stands we'll be splitting ground from March 1st into movement controller and planner. Also the longer term plans envision a Tower Coordinator. Obviously these plans hinge on us recruiting enough atcos which depends on our pay & conditions being improved (not holding my breathe there then
)
Wow controllers from the centre & the airport as well as pilots all talking together..............geesh, novel this innit?
Oh the remark about the pilots meeting, care to PM an e-mail address and I'll pass it to my boss. As for the Irish Village, well alright, if you insist 
Dane to stop playing politics and apply some logic..........sorry forgot where I am living there As for prefering to stay in the hold, would love to keep you there but as it stands our only flexibilty is in the vectoring hence the scenic tours. Ferris is the only coordination between North/West & East sectors done by Dubai Cod?
As for the start ups, usual problem with everyone wanting to go the same way at the same time, plus our local tower only atcos sometimes don't pick up on the bigger picture. As it stands we'll be splitting ground from March 1st into movement controller and planner. Also the longer term plans envision a Tower Coordinator. Obviously these plans hinge on us recruiting enough atcos which depends on our pay & conditions being improved (not holding my breathe there then
)Wow controllers from the centre & the airport as well as pilots all talking together..............geesh, novel this innit?
Oh the remark about the pilots meeting, care to PM an e-mail address and I'll pass it to my boss. As for the Irish Village, well alright, if you insist
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ATM, the way the system is set up, Nth and East sequence independantly. The only way to get extra spacing is to call for 20nm etc. Flow shouldn't be run from the centre. This is very inefficient. It would work if east was given gate times ie. number 1 cross BUBIN at 34, number 2 at 39 etc. There has been some ad hoc experimentation recently by a few of us re; coordinating gaps in the west sequence to fit AUH and east arrivals. Whilst a marked improvement, it still doesn't cover all bases, and if you-know-who found out we weren't doing it his way, we'd be toast.
PM me for contact details of the EAA people.
PM me for contact details of the EAA people.
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Firstly, a couple of ‘givens’:
- Emirates is DXB’s biggest customer
- Emirates aircraft (except one) all have datalink
- Many other users of DXB also have datalink
While it will be a great improvement to separate the ADC and Ground frequencies, (as only occasionally seems to happen lately), let’s drag DXB into the 21st century with something that’s been in use elsewhere for ages now – datalink.
DATALINK
Could we please have datalink as soon as possible for pre start airways clearances at DXB? It would go a long way towards reducing the terrible bottlenecks around 2.00 am and 7.30 am as God only knows how many people try to squeeze a word in edgeways. It’s like Mumbai HF some mornings.
***
A….T….I….S
I also have to agree with the many comments re DXB’s too long ATIS. It’s almost as bad as CDG where you have to sit through the French edition before they deign to parlez to us in (puh!) Anglais.
***
As for the personal complaints: I think I speak for the majority of DXB ATC users when I say that most of us understand that the silliness we sometimes see inflicted upon us is as frustrating for the ATCOs as it is for us. Like us, they’re only wing a set of ‘rools’ laid down for them by people who know better.
***
HOLDING
Re the holding stack: I’m more than a little anal retentive about fuel, and I really don’t like the cross country tours I all too frequently get after I’ve been cleared from DESDI or wherever. On occasion, I’ve burnt so much more than expected after leaving the stack going into DXB that I would have been seriously embarrassed had I been held in the stack to within a few minutes of my ‘bug out’ figure. (Like many, I suspect, I’ve since increased my ‘bug out’ figure for DXB.)
I’d really like to see the LHR system, where you have a fair to middlin’ idea (to within 100 to 200 kgs) of how much you’re going to burn after you leave the hold. Whoever it was who suggested inviting ATCOs to the next pilot meeting was inspired. Damn good idea.
***
Finally, it’s refreshing to find Pprune actually being used for what I suspect Danny created it for. I recall a similar thread some time ago about 777-300 approach speeds into LHR that seemed to have a very positive effect on both camps understanding of the others’ positions and preferences. Let’s hope this one has a similar effect.
- Emirates is DXB’s biggest customer
- Emirates aircraft (except one) all have datalink
- Many other users of DXB also have datalink
While it will be a great improvement to separate the ADC and Ground frequencies, (as only occasionally seems to happen lately), let’s drag DXB into the 21st century with something that’s been in use elsewhere for ages now – datalink.
DATALINK
Could we please have datalink as soon as possible for pre start airways clearances at DXB? It would go a long way towards reducing the terrible bottlenecks around 2.00 am and 7.30 am as God only knows how many people try to squeeze a word in edgeways. It’s like Mumbai HF some mornings.
***
A….T….I….S
I also have to agree with the many comments re DXB’s too long ATIS. It’s almost as bad as CDG where you have to sit through the French edition before they deign to parlez to us in (puh!) Anglais.
***
As for the personal complaints: I think I speak for the majority of DXB ATC users when I say that most of us understand that the silliness we sometimes see inflicted upon us is as frustrating for the ATCOs as it is for us. Like us, they’re only wing a set of ‘rools’ laid down for them by people who know better.
***
HOLDING
Re the holding stack: I’m more than a little anal retentive about fuel, and I really don’t like the cross country tours I all too frequently get after I’ve been cleared from DESDI or wherever. On occasion, I’ve burnt so much more than expected after leaving the stack going into DXB that I would have been seriously embarrassed had I been held in the stack to within a few minutes of my ‘bug out’ figure. (Like many, I suspect, I’ve since increased my ‘bug out’ figure for DXB.)
I’d really like to see the LHR system, where you have a fair to middlin’ idea (to within 100 to 200 kgs) of how much you’re going to burn after you leave the hold. Whoever it was who suggested inviting ATCOs to the next pilot meeting was inspired. Damn good idea.
***
Finally, it’s refreshing to find Pprune actually being used for what I suspect Danny created it for. I recall a similar thread some time ago about 777-300 approach speeds into LHR that seemed to have a very positive effect on both camps understanding of the others’ positions and preferences. Let’s hope this one has a similar effect.
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It's frustrating to sit and watch the beautiful stream you have worked to create go to hell in the terminal area
Seriously though I do agree that what Dubai needs is a dedicated flow controller who works out the sequence and then works back from that with times to arrive at the respective gates, which then leaves it up to us humble area controllers to meet those times and with a bit of luck the sequence would run smoothly.
If that is too much to expect then have a coordinator who selectively asks for 20 NM's between certain aircraft rather than the blanket 20 NM's or 30NM's between all aircraft after they have lost the plot and the poop has well and truly hit the fan.
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Fly Through,
"just remember we're trying to do our job with not enough people, a crap system and a regulator who blames us for everything!"
Good to see not much has changed in the past few years!
As for the holding patterns... with local 'politics' gaining precedence over operational sense over the past few years - less airspace and more restrictions placed by the 'regulator' - things are bound to have become more operationally challenging. No doubt the empire building will continue...
"just remember we're trying to do our job with not enough people, a crap system and a regulator who blames us for everything!"
Good to see not much has changed in the past few years!
As for the holding patterns... with local 'politics' gaining precedence over operational sense over the past few years - less airspace and more restrictions placed by the 'regulator' - things are bound to have become more operationally challenging. No doubt the empire building will continue...
Might also help a bit if we were to actually fly the published star instead of the " maintain heading 300"!!!! Would stop a lot of the controller work load, would allow the flight deck (early morning after all night flight from hell) to use the FMC for track miles and descent profile....and hopefully free up the approach freq a bit.
Maybe if the chart reflected 210kts at bubok (oops can not remember its name!!!) and 180kts and 2000' at Umali (is that the right name for 12L ?) only small speed control would be required at busy times. The mile or two saved by the early turn at 0600hrs sometimes is not worth the effort.
Think the discussions that have taken place at Dubliners on those warm summer days between ATC and Pilots over the last few years have been well worth while, long may they continue, if only I could remember some of the answers the next morning!
Don
Maybe if the chart reflected 210kts at bubok (oops can not remember its name!!!) and 180kts and 2000' at Umali (is that the right name for 12L ?) only small speed control would be required at busy times. The mile or two saved by the early turn at 0600hrs sometimes is not worth the effort.
Think the discussions that have taken place at Dubliners on those warm summer days between ATC and Pilots over the last few years have been well worth while, long may they continue, if only I could remember some of the answers the next morning!
Don
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Being quite new to DXB I think Dubai ATC is not to bad compared to the rest of the middle east. The only thing that really scared me a couple of days ago. Was the fact that an aircraft was cleared for take off while we taxied from M5 to k2(?) for 12R while there was a 747 lined up at the begining of the RWY. Apparently a smaller aircraft than us (B1900) was cleared for an intersection take off, would be appreciated if you guys gave us a bit more info on what is going on at our 6 o' clock. Keep up the good work i'd say
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Probably just reiterating what's gone before but....
I have always been impressed having been sequenced by UAE and flapped at 240kts for 300 miles, when Dubai give me 'Direct Ukrim, no speed control'
The snag seems to be that they try to manage arrivals from 3 directions without a stack and only have control of the full picture when the aircraft get to Desdi et al pointing at 12L. London have the luxury of a much larger area in which to get the whole sequence squared away.
It all seems to go horribly wrong when the stream from Iran meets the Saudi and Omani streams. After all they even said in Ghostbusters, don't cross the streams.
Is there a way that the routing into Dubai's airspace for 12 could have a timing leg (just like out of Lambourne) so that aircraft can be picked off to meet a time at Ukrim. Then if it gets busy the hold could be used to slow the flowrate. Right now, there seems to be not enough trackmiles or angles in the STARs to sort out the problem.
I'll just go and feed my granny another egg!
Ghost
I have always been impressed having been sequenced by UAE and flapped at 240kts for 300 miles, when Dubai give me 'Direct Ukrim, no speed control'
The snag seems to be that they try to manage arrivals from 3 directions without a stack and only have control of the full picture when the aircraft get to Desdi et al pointing at 12L. London have the luxury of a much larger area in which to get the whole sequence squared away.
It all seems to go horribly wrong when the stream from Iran meets the Saudi and Omani streams. After all they even said in Ghostbusters, don't cross the streams.
Is there a way that the routing into Dubai's airspace for 12 could have a timing leg (just like out of Lambourne) so that aircraft can be picked off to meet a time at Ukrim. Then if it gets busy the hold could be used to slow the flowrate. Right now, there seems to be not enough trackmiles or angles in the STARs to sort out the problem.
I'll just go and feed my granny another egg!
Ghost
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I think the sequencing should be left to the approach guys, we're the only one's who have the whole picture re inbounds from other directions. Maybe even try being old fashioned by giving centre lowest levels and EATs, then you guys can arrange your flights accordingly, we can achieve minimum spacing and centre isn't spending all there time trying to get 10 miles. We're also spending much more time on the phone these days with individual coordination to try and speed things up but some UAE watches don't like this and it is officially against our rules.
As for flying the stars, great if it's quiet (I just love letting all the technical gubbins do the work for us ) but when we're attempting max runway utilization then we need to vector you to get the gaps accurate. As for descent profiles, we can give you a best guess at distance from touchdown but at the moment due to a number of reasons (ie. every star & sid conflicting, only allowed to use 5 miles separation in a system set up for 3 miles.....etc) we can't always ensure the continuous descent.
There's a hell of lot of changes needed in the system here but all though we shout ourselves horse trying to get it we're only atco's so we're ignored. What we need is complaints from the customers, so come on all you mrats guys get whinging to your company, then pressure might be brought to bear.
Cheers FT
As for flying the stars, great if it's quiet (I just love letting all the technical gubbins do the work for us
) but when we're attempting max runway utilization then we need to vector you to get the gaps accurate. As for descent profiles, we can give you a best guess at distance from touchdown but at the moment due to a number of reasons (ie. every star & sid conflicting, only allowed to use 5 miles separation in a system set up for 3 miles.....etc) we can't always ensure the continuous descent.There's a hell of lot of changes needed in the system here but all though we shout ourselves horse trying to get it we're only atco's so we're ignored. What we need is complaints from the customers, so come on all you mrats guys get whinging to your company, then pressure might be brought to bear.
Cheers FT
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I think the controlers do a very good job in DXB. A hold is almost non existant even at the busy times. As for the profiles, vectors and speed control when it is busy, I say they see more of the picture than we do, so I just follow and let them lead me in. They always get the message across when we are get high or low on "their" profile (sometimes you have to read between the lines). As for the rare instance when we are arriving in the pattern with close to min fuel, if you let them know I'm sure they will do all they can to help out.
Keep up the good work guys.
Crazy
Keep up the good work guys.
Crazy
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Vercingetorix.
I've never done APP.
Ghost.
It just means you have taken your delay before entering the terminal area. Area spaces you 10nm behind the one in front by DESDI. If APP have sent the one ahead of you direct to UKRIM, then you too will go dct UKRIM (barring them trying to fit another one in from the east between you). Alternatives; you could steam on in for those '300nm' at 320kts, then enter the hold at DESDI and take your delay there, or just plunge on into the TMA, overload the APP freq and his airspace (like it used to happen) and have no idea about how long you have to run.
Donpizmeov
I'm sure if you want a more regimented system (ie always fly the STAR) the boss would be only too happy to oblige.
All the complaints are fixable. It's no joy to have to work this system. I'm sure it worked well in Copenhagen in the early 70s....
I've never done APP.
Ghost.
flapped at 240kts for 300 miles, when Dubai give me 'Direct Ukrim, no speed control'
Donpizmeov
I'm sure if you want a more regimented system (ie always fly the STAR) the boss would be only too happy to oblige.
All the complaints are fixable. It's no joy to have to work this system. I'm sure it worked well in Copenhagen in the early 70s....
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'Not stealing Dubai's thunder but generally all the holding, vectoring and speed control is care of us guys in Abu Dhabi. So you can thank/blame us for that.'
Hmmmmm let's just say you start the ball rolling, we're the one's that run with it. Next you'll be saying that you do the sequencing!!
By the way you area guys, are there rules on how you get the gaps through Desdi or Bubin? Seen some really bizarre methods of late!
Rgds FT
Ps. I know we do a liason visit as part of our training but we never see you guys up here. Come on we won't bite and we'll even shout a beer or two!
Hmmmmm let's just say you start the ball rolling, we're the one's that run with it. Next you'll be saying that you do the sequencing!!
By the way you area guys, are there rules on how you get the gaps through Desdi or Bubin? Seen some really bizarre methods of late!
Rgds FT
Ps. I know we do a liason visit as part of our training but we never see you guys up here. Come on we won't bite and we'll even shout a beer or two!
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No real complaints about the ATCOs standard. Yet to see R/T floggings or vectors from (to) hell.
One gent however has a habit of responding to pilots' readbacks of his instructions with a clipped "Correct..." or sometimes just a double click. Is there a requirement to acknowledge readbacks on UAE Control or departures? Why don’t other controllers do this?
Might be an old chestnut but why does Muscat invariably have no runway info for all the aircraft transiting through to Dubai?
One other question, when the Altn GND freq is used at Dubai, why isn’t this mentioned on the ATIS so a call and air-time isn’t wasted on 118.35?
One gent however has a habit of responding to pilots' readbacks of his instructions with a clipped "Correct..." or sometimes just a double click. Is there a requirement to acknowledge readbacks on UAE Control or departures? Why don’t other controllers do this?
Might be an old chestnut but why does Muscat invariably have no runway info for all the aircraft transiting through to Dubai?
One other question, when the Altn GND freq is used at Dubai, why isn’t this mentioned on the ATIS so a call and air-time isn’t wasted on 118.35?
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Hey fly through, sometimes we need to pull out some really bizarre tricks out of the hat to achieve our ten miles, cos Muscat and Tehran decided to "help" us 
The expats in Muscat are great but the locals seem to have a great attachment to their aircraft and therefore don't want to give them to us until they are all on top of each other roaring into Bubin. As far as Tehran.. well nuff said.
As far as the visits go. We have tried to make it a part of our training but at this stage we get a trip to Abu Dhabi APP (Woohoo!) and thats it. I certainly have made many trips to Dubai and met many of the Dubai App controllers, but that was strictly personal
There is no requirement to acknowledge a readback as being correct. Silence from the controller is acknowledgement that you got it right, and we'll respond only if something was readback incorrectly. The only time I would tell the pilot he got it right, would be for our Eastern European friends, who readback the clearance and finish with a big questioning upward inflection in there voice, and I will confirm he got it right rather than responding to the inevitable queries 2 minutes later.
We have no requirement to tell Muscat of the runway in Dubai, and I guess Muscat expects you guys can get the ATIS and find out for yourself. I do know this can be hard when Dubai change runway but the ATIS remains unchanged for half an hour
The expats in Muscat are great but the locals seem to have a great attachment to their aircraft and therefore don't want to give them to us until they are all on top of each other roaring into Bubin. As far as Tehran.. well nuff said.As far as the visits go. We have tried to make it a part of our training but at this stage we get a trip to Abu Dhabi APP (Woohoo!) and thats it. I certainly have made many trips to Dubai and met many of the Dubai App controllers, but that was strictly personal
There is no requirement to acknowledge a readback as being correct. Silence from the controller is acknowledgement that you got it right, and we'll respond only if something was readback incorrectly. The only time I would tell the pilot he got it right, would be for our Eastern European friends, who readback the clearance and finish with a big questioning upward inflection in there voice, and I will confirm he got it right rather than responding to the inevitable queries 2 minutes later.
We have no requirement to tell Muscat of the runway in Dubai, and I guess Muscat expects you guys can get the ATIS and find out for yourself. I do know this can be hard when Dubai change runway but the ATIS remains unchanged for half an hour
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 15th Jan 2004 at 19:56.