Heart Murmurs

[Dozza2k]

Hey,
Yes i have one. The doctor doing that part of my class 1 on friday said he saw about 5 a week and they were quite common. I am still full of hope as my chest x ray was clear, and my cholestorol is excellent, and my heartbeat was fine. He said it was either a problem with my heart and thus i could'nt get a C1, or it was a 'natural murmur'. Does anyone know what one these means with regard to a flying career? Do any of you have one? Any comments would be appreciated, thanks in advance.
Dozza

[slim_slag]

If you are an otherwise fit and healthy youngster, there is a very high probability it's one of these "natural murmur" things and you will survive to old age, then die of something else. What's the doc going to do next? Sounds like (s)he is the best person to listen to.

[Dozza2k]

i am a healthy and fit youngster, i think . The doc is making me have an ultrasound of my heart to see if anything comes up, and IF that is clear, my dreams are back on track!

[robwilson]

Same thing happened to me, 2 week wait, ultra sound, comment from cardioligist "bloody hell your hearts loud" sent report to CAA, "thats fine". Dont worry.

[GARDENER]

Had exactly the same experience as above.......only difference was after the ultrasound I then had to return to Gatwick with a further £100 and speak to the top dog for five minutes only to be told he could not hear anything untoward. Sure you will be fine!

[slim_slag]

Just an observation but I find it of interest and others may too.

In the UK, if you go to see a doctor for a sore throat and he finds a "natural murmur" you are probably not going to get any fancy heart tests. If you go to see a doctor for a class 1 medical and he finds a "natural murmur" he will ask for all sorts of expensive tests and you may be denied a medical for reasons that have nothing to do with your safety as a pilot.

In the US, if you go to see a doctor for a sore throat and he finds a "natural murmur" you could easily be subjected to a lot of expensive tests. If you go to see a doctor for a class 1 medical and he finds a "natural murmur" he will probably ignore it and send you away with the class 1 medical you asked for.

Maybe a generalisation, but I find the different approach in the two countries to a patient who is also a pilot quite interesting.

[Sick Squid]

I don't mind owning up to being the owner of one of these... a "soft systolic murmur" which I was very interested to see on inspecting my medical notes once was mentioned on Day One of my life by the doctor who slapped me (the first of many slaps, I have to add, and still they come ) and brought me onto the planet.

Have had the Echocardiogram-thingy a few years back for an employment interview, and everyone came away happy. It does make medical renewals interesting as if it is a new Doctor I always like to see the CRM manner in which they first find it, then question me about it.. suppose I could tell them, but find it interesting to see the different approaches.

Was simply explained to me as a little insignificant turbulence around a valve... everything else, cholesterol, BP, is excessively normal (at the moment, fingers crossed) so don't know if that would ever tilt the tables slightly... thats where a bit of medical opinion is required, not just the poorly-informed comments of a clueless owner like me!

Squid

[Hawk]

Aww poor Squiddy. Now you come and have a lie down at Min and Hawk's Moderators' Sick Bay and give that little heart a rest. We have a bottle of medicinal mango wine especially for such occasions.

[Inverted81]

Hi Fred,
I'm not a doctor, so this only things as i see it
First of all i wouldn't panic... if you haven't shown any other symptoms then you should be fine and dandy. I was diagnosed as having one as a baby then before my RAF medical 4 years ago for a scholarship, it was all cleared. I recently went for my initial class 1 as well and was told that i have the murmur again (if it ever did go away that is). I feel fine, my ecg and chest x ray are all clear, so i am not worrying. I have read around the subject a bit more and my understanding is that heart murmurs are a VERY COMMON problem, and often are never detected. it just indicates a leaky valve or turbulent flow etc... my doc also said it could also just be caused by anxiety. I'm being sent for an echocardiogram as well, as the CAA will need proof that the murmur has been investigated ( i believe just a matter of procedure etc) and i was implicently told NOT TO WORRY. Now obviously every case is different, but the chances are, everything will be A OK. I just wanna get my test sorted and done with as well... hee hee.
take it easy.... no need to panic....
Chris

[Inverted81]

Hi, mines getting paid for through NATS as i'm hopefully going to be starting my ATCO course in the new year, i've heard many rumours about price. Unfortunately i dont think its very cheap at all. i dont know if this is true or not but i've heard prices in the range of £400-800!!! perhaps someone can clarify this both for NHS and private????
I just hope to hear the words "ur ok!" lol.

C

[santan17]

I have a heart murmur which they discovered on my third renewal, so the doc grounded me and sent me to Gatwick, the specialist there might have been bored or something but the way he was talking and frowning , I thought I only had days to live, stuff like "when we get your results back we are going to have to sit down and have a serious talk about your future..." (Im only 22) Anyway to cut a long story short I got the test results, asked to see a different doctor and he said I was fine come back in 2007 for another echocardiogramme...
I also got another heart specialist to check it out just in case I was about to expire or something but he said he could hardly hear it at all, so what that guy at the CAA was smoking I dont know. Not nice though.


Santan

[Bendo]

Bicuspid valve

G'day Lads,

I was diagnosed with a murmur as a kid and it was properly investigated when I was 17 - it scratched me from RAAF pilot selection.

However, it hasn't precluded me from working as a commercial pilot for the last 10 years. I am now 30 and I run half-marathons and play rugby, chase the wife around etc etc etc.

My murmur is caused by having a bicuspid (two-leaf) aortic valve instead of a three-leaf valve like 97% of the population.

When having a regular check-up last Dec the cardiologist found that my aorta was dilating, stretching out to a diameter of 54mm. The normal dia. is 25-30mm.

I was booked in for corrective surgery; I flew until the day before the Operation and my medical certificate will be re-issued 10 weeks post-operatively with no restrictions.

The surgeons removed the dodgy aorta and installed a nice little white dacron hose in its place; I might need a valve replacement in 15-20 years, I might not.

IN SUMMARY,

It might seem bad but it ain't; if investigations show something that needs to be monitored, make sure you keep it monitored regardless of the cost.

If I hadn't had this checked I could have ruptured at any time and had a short, agonising death... which would NOT have been good in an aeroplane.

Stay well.

[London Girl]

I went through exactly the same process back in May when I was told at my initial Class 1 that I had a heart murmur. My heart was also slightly enlarged but was still within normal limits. I was told that I would have to have an echocardiogram. I was slightly worked up and worried that my pilot ambitions were out of the window, so booked the echo 3 days later - I went private and it cost £320 (ouch!) but was told NHS could take up to 10 months so it seemed the better option.

Anyway, after 20 minutes of scanning the specialist sent a fax to the CAA saying all was fine and I had a natural murmur. I received my Class 1 the following week. The specialist told me he sees hundreds of people referred by the CAA - at the end of the day, they have to be sure we are fit and healthy before issuing the Class 1 and don't take any chances!

I really wouldn't worry - in 99% of all referrals there is nothing wrong at all..

This was my post back in May, which eased my concerns! http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthr...hreadid=131524

Good Luck!

[atse]

Yes, that's it. The important thing is that a "murmur" is just like a ?

And once somebody (who has to get paid) says that the ? is really nothing, then your problems are over.

And 99% of the time the ? is really nothing.

None of which helps when you get told there is a ? and you get the **** scared out of you.

[Inverted81]

Hi,
Had my echo tonite, and am glad to say all is 100% fine. Its only a feint "flow" murmur so will never need any follow up checks etc. Thanks for all the info guys, and for those of you readin this because you're worried there really isn't any need to be.... just get it checked out and more than likely ya should be fine! ATCO training here i come! lol
C

[Rabid Dog]

For a living, I listen to hearts several times a day. With regards to murmurs, one of things happen:
(a) I can't hear one, someone else can -> intellectual argument as to the significance of the murmur;
(b) I can hear one, no-one else can -> intellectual argument as to the significance of the murmur;
(c) A murmur is there, it's been hear (and documented) as being heard before, ignore it;
(d) A murmur is there, it's not been heard before -> intellectual argument as to the signifcance of the murmur;
(e) etc.
As you can see, a murmur in the general population is generally ignored, unless there is a suggestion that it is related to an infection etc. involving the heart ( and these are pretty rare). I think why the murmurs are so investigated is two-fold - there is a tradition in medicine to 'do' something aboutit; and if you're ever unlucky enough to be involved in an incident, people are covering their backs in advance.
In essence - don't worry too much, their usually medically benign, and although stressful from the point of view of licence renewal, generally of no consequence.

[Speed Twelve]

Glad to hear your ticker checked out OK.

When I went through pilot selection with the RAF I was diagnosed as having a 'slight murmur' which had no corroborating symptoms. I was otherwise fit, and the docs put it to me that if it was significant I would have probably have dropped dead on the squash court by then anyway.

Was sent to the RAF's Central Medical Establishment in London to see an Air Commodore specialist who gave me an echo-scan, during which he announced that I was firing on all cylinders and did in fact just have a 'noisy heart' due to it being rotated slightly on its axis compared to other people. No snags thereafter.

Incidentally the above visit to CME occurred after I had been provisionally accepted for pilot training conditional on medical fitness. If I had not passed selection I would have walked away still wondering whether or not I was about to drop dead!

On many subsequent civilian Class 1 medical renewals no evidence of a murmur has been found.

ST

[YVRKid]

What exactly is a heart murmur

[slim_slag]

Mooney,

Isn't that lup dup ???

YVRKid,

Heart without murmur goes 'lup dup, lup dup' (or whatever)

Sometimes you hear

lup shhhh dup, lup shhhh dup

The 'shhhh' is the murmur, this could be considered to be turbulent blood i.e non laminar which causes a noise. Blood might be turbulent because of a rough spot on a valve, or more usually in young adults because their heart is just doing a good job.

Then sometimes you hear

lup dup sh, lup dup sh

The sh is in a different place, geddit????

And then you scratch your head and wonder what is the meaning of life and funny noises emanating from the heart.

Ah, google is such a wonderful tool

DIY Cardiologist

If the truth be known, the art of listening to the heart is dying fast. I forget the figure, but lets say 30% of American physicians couldn't recognise a systolic from a diastolic murmur, the stethescope around the neck is a status symbol more than anything else. It's just easier to echo somebody and get the real answer, and this also generates further revenue from the medical insurance company.

[Bus429]

I spent two days earlier this month walking around with a 48-hour monitor on my belt and mini Jodrell Banks on my chest.
I get irregular beats every day and occasionally need to cough to halt a prolonged bout (it's true!).

Still waiting for results - ECG tests are always fine and the heart never "plays up" when I'm hooked up!