Prostate cancer
Psychophysiological entity
Radgirl, in actuality, I've only been to Canada once. The family travelling from CA got stuck in snow for 11 hours, while we arrived tired from southern Texas. It was all to show the g-children what snow was like.
There was none. Christmas, and not a flake. We drove for hours before seeing ski slopes with 'God, give us snow!' emblazoned on roadside billboards. Not a good sign.
When we got back to the heat, it had snowed for the first time in 109 years.
My biopsy was done in a Texas Christian hospital by a lovely doctor that waived his fees for this beleaguered Brit. I paid for the lab work. I was over 60 when this all came about so could head back to the UK for treatment. I saw the specialist about 15 hours after landing.
My GP had recommended Watchful Waiting before being told the Gleeson. My wife did the research and wheeled my bewildered state into an interview with a nice specialist nurse in an Essex hospital. I was then driven to Southend to meet Mr Lodge, one of the (then) 4 UK specialists at the teaching hospital.
I got told not to be late for the actual procedure because of the aforementioned cost. Miss the time and they have to be thrown away.
Talking of which - I wasn't allowed to cuddle my grandchildren for a while, and I could not be incinerated for a year. Good job, as I wasn't dead. Radio iodine 125.
The upshot of all this was that I was back to my bouncy self just days later . . . fully functional and eyeing the Rivetess like a rejuvenated puppy. Which is possibly one of the reasons she moved 600 yards up the road.
Life is so strange.
Brains:
I never quote my professor son as he takes his work very seriously and I might fuzz the details, but we do talk about brains now and then and a recent discussion lead me to a post on a cosmology forum today. Quantum entanglement in brains. I muse over the fact we have c 86 Billion neurons giving multi trillions of possible interconnections, and now it's postulated that there may be some 'action at a distance between the transmitter's electrons. This would up the anti by many orders of magnitude and leave us never being able to map conciousness. I had wondered if the synapse neuro-trasmiters might be encoded, but that wouldn't be in the same league as physically unconnected messages crossing the brain.
I wouldn't have given it a second thought if it hadn't been one of Sir Roger Penrose's hobby-horses some years ago.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...-brain/506768/
There was none. Christmas, and not a flake. We drove for hours before seeing ski slopes with 'God, give us snow!' emblazoned on roadside billboards. Not a good sign.
When we got back to the heat, it had snowed for the first time in 109 years.
My biopsy was done in a Texas Christian hospital by a lovely doctor that waived his fees for this beleaguered Brit. I paid for the lab work. I was over 60 when this all came about so could head back to the UK for treatment. I saw the specialist about 15 hours after landing.
My GP had recommended Watchful Waiting before being told the Gleeson. My wife did the research and wheeled my bewildered state into an interview with a nice specialist nurse in an Essex hospital. I was then driven to Southend to meet Mr Lodge, one of the (then) 4 UK specialists at the teaching hospital.
I got told not to be late for the actual procedure because of the aforementioned cost. Miss the time and they have to be thrown away.
Talking of which - I wasn't allowed to cuddle my grandchildren for a while, and I could not be incinerated for a year. Good job, as I wasn't dead. Radio iodine 125.
The upshot of all this was that I was back to my bouncy self just days later . . . fully functional and eyeing the Rivetess like a rejuvenated puppy. Which is possibly one of the reasons she moved 600 yards up the road.
Life is so strange. Brains:
I never quote my professor son as he takes his work very seriously and I might fuzz the details, but we do talk about brains now and then and a recent discussion lead me to a post on a cosmology forum today. Quantum entanglement in brains. I muse over the fact we have c 86 Billion neurons giving multi trillions of possible interconnections, and now it's postulated that there may be some 'action at a distance between the transmitter's electrons. This would up the anti by many orders of magnitude and leave us never being able to map conciousness. I had wondered if the synapse neuro-trasmiters might be encoded, but that wouldn't be in the same league as physically unconnected messages crossing the brain.
I wouldn't have given it a second thought if it hadn't been one of Sir Roger Penrose's hobby-horses some years ago.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...-brain/506768/
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Anyone had any experience of the success rate of HDR Brachytherapy? 71 YO Dad diagnosed with Gleason 9/PSA 45/no symptoms 3 years ago. Locally advanced. Clear bone scan. Had HDR + external RT + injected Zoladex (course finished last September) Last PSA in October 0.02 but due for a follow up PSA next week. I know he’s quite anxious in case the cancer hasn’t been subdued.
Last edited by BehindBlueEyes; 8th Feb 2018 at 21:18.
Psychophysiological entity
Having reread the question I'm now assuming previous treatment of a temporary Brachytherapy. I'll leave my answer as it was just for general information but I don't know if one can have seeds after HDR temporary.
A few years ago I was on the acceptance borderline with a Gleason 7, made up of 4 - 3 (the worst way round) This may of course have changed.
I'm not sure what the effects of previous treatments may be.
It's worth noting, and again some years ago, after Brachytherapy the removal of the prostate is not possible, so decision making could be based on the reduced options left after previous treatment.
Gleason readings are notorious for causing stress and even morbidity in patients. So much so that stopping that routine test was considered in the UK for a while. Personally, I thought that to be foolish, but at 71, and contained, the slowing down of the growth-rate gives some comfort, especially when closely monitored. However, I'd want advanced scans, with an MRI at minimum.
I was lucky, I had an MRI for lower back prior to back surgery. The surgeon was aware of the previous problem but perhaps always looks for cancer in older prostate patients as the back is where it seems to go.
A few years ago I was on the acceptance borderline with a Gleason 7, made up of 4 - 3 (the worst way round) This may of course have changed.
I'm not sure what the effects of previous treatments may be.
It's worth noting, and again some years ago, after Brachytherapy the removal of the prostate is not possible, so decision making could be based on the reduced options left after previous treatment.
Gleason readings are notorious for causing stress and even morbidity in patients. So much so that stopping that routine test was considered in the UK for a while. Personally, I thought that to be foolish, but at 71, and contained, the slowing down of the growth-rate gives some comfort, especially when closely monitored. However, I'd want advanced scans, with an MRI at minimum.
I was lucky, I had an MRI for lower back prior to back surgery. The surgeon was aware of the previous problem but perhaps always looks for cancer in older prostate patients as the back is where it seems to go.
Last edited by Loose rivets; 9th Feb 2018 at 01:17.
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Many thanks for your reply Loose Rivets.
Dad was told at diagnosis that even if nothing was done, it wouldn’t be an issue for 5 - 8 years which seems strange seeing it was already ‘locally advanced’
Yes, it was temporary brachytherapy and at the time, the specialist was pretty confident that it had all been zapped but recommended the Zoladex for 2 years as belt and braces. Although dad says the nocturnal visits are much reduced, he still gets up a couple of times some nights so I think he’s concerned that there might still be a problem. I’ve read online that Brachytherapy in itself can cause some long term urinary issues which I hoped should reassure him.
Interesting to know also that at 71, the growth, if it’s still there, will be slower. I had no idea so many thanks.
Dad was told at diagnosis that even if nothing was done, it wouldn’t be an issue for 5 - 8 years which seems strange seeing it was already ‘locally advanced’
Yes, it was temporary brachytherapy and at the time, the specialist was pretty confident that it had all been zapped but recommended the Zoladex for 2 years as belt and braces. Although dad says the nocturnal visits are much reduced, he still gets up a couple of times some nights so I think he’s concerned that there might still be a problem. I’ve read online that Brachytherapy in itself can cause some long term urinary issues which I hoped should reassure him.
Interesting to know also that at 71, the growth, if it’s still there, will be slower. I had no idea so many thanks.
Unfortunately I was diagnosed with prostate cancer shortly before Christmas after they investigated a mildly high PSA (~5). Urologist had a nice quote though - "many men die with prostate cancer, but not many die from prostate cancer". Depending on what they see, treatment can be anything from "keep an eye on it and see what happens" to complete removal of the prostate.
Biopsy sounds bad, but in reality wasn't a big deal - some stings and a sore bum for a few days. Worst part was blood in my 'bodily fluids' for some time after.
They caught mine early, which is fortunate because it's fairly aggressive (8 on a scale of 2-10), two different scans found no evidence it's spread. Treatment plan is hormones for a couple months (already started), focused beam radiation for 5 weeks, then implant of radioactive 'seeds' in the prostate after a couple week break from the external radiation, then a few more months of hormones.
Obviously not something I want to deal with, but the prognosis is very positive.
Biopsy sounds bad, but in reality wasn't a big deal - some stings and a sore bum for a few days. Worst part was blood in my 'bodily fluids' for some time after.
They caught mine early, which is fortunate because it's fairly aggressive (8 on a scale of 2-10), two different scans found no evidence it's spread. Treatment plan is hormones for a couple months (already started), focused beam radiation for 5 weeks, then implant of radioactive 'seeds' in the prostate after a couple week break from the external radiation, then a few more months of hormones.
Obviously not something I want to deal with, but the prognosis is very positive.
Psychophysiological entity
That really does sound a belt a braces attack on quite a low PSA. The Gleason? 8, if it is Gleason, is made up of two figures. I don't know why my 4+3 was much worse than a 3+4, but it was that, that made my GP change his mind about 'Watchful Waiting'.
The thing about disasters is finding the light side. When I went to Southend for the Volume Studies, I needed to be Picolaxed. If you haven't been Picolaxed you don't know what you've missed.
Lovely nurse looked at me after about an hour and said, Anything happening?
Nope.
Another hour. Anything yet?
Nope
After about three hours the negative answers bought questioning looks between the staff.
Four hours and I trotted off to the single loo in the 8 bed ward. I feared this moment as I'm a fussy git, and hate loos that are below royal standard.
It was immaculate. Even to my 20/20 vision it was spotless. However, there was an abundance of loo rolls that diverted attention from my by now hurried state. Lots of loo rolls. Piled on the window sill so that very little light could enter. Piled on the top of the cistern. In piles on the floor so that one could not help kicking them asunder. Seated, one did not need armrests as one's elbows were supported by loo rolls. Somehow in this strange moment, I found this funny. Very, very funny.
There's something unique in the human psyche that lets humour soften the brickbats. Being helpless with laughter while Picolaxed is something that is beyond the sternest tests of self control, though it has to be said that one augmented the efficacy of the other.
The thing about disasters is finding the light side. When I went to Southend for the Volume Studies, I needed to be Picolaxed. If you haven't been Picolaxed you don't know what you've missed.
Lovely nurse looked at me after about an hour and said, Anything happening?
Nope.
Another hour. Anything yet?
Nope
After about three hours the negative answers bought questioning looks between the staff.
Four hours and I trotted off to the single loo in the 8 bed ward. I feared this moment as I'm a fussy git, and hate loos that are below royal standard.
It was immaculate. Even to my 20/20 vision it was spotless. However, there was an abundance of loo rolls that diverted attention from my by now hurried state. Lots of loo rolls. Piled on the window sill so that very little light could enter. Piled on the top of the cistern. In piles on the floor so that one could not help kicking them asunder. Seated, one did not need armrests as one's elbows were supported by loo rolls. Somehow in this strange moment, I found this funny. Very, very funny.
There's something unique in the human psyche that lets humour soften the brickbats. Being helpless with laughter while Picolaxed is something that is beyond the sternest tests of self control, though it has to be said that one augmented the efficacy of the other.
That really does sound a belt a braces attack on quite a low PSA. The Gleason? 8, if it is Gleason, is made up of two figures. I don't know why my 4+3 was much worse than a 3+4, but it was that, that made my GP change his mind about 'Watchful Waiting'
At least for now, I'm more concerned about potential side effects than I am about a 'failure to cure' the cancer. The hormone treatment is already annoying - given the lack of energy and how suddenly easy it is for me to gain weight it must really suck to be female
Psychophysiological entity
Yes, I did not like the sound of the hormone treatment. I opted for just one Brachytherapy and almost literally left it at that. Just sent in the PSA's and got letters to say how delighted he was with the readings. My reading of the man who saved my life was that he never got delighted about anything, but it takes all sorts.
My burden is 'bowel hurry'. I think that's a name he made up. 1 in 500 cases he mentioned casually. Back then that would have made two of us. Tedious, it just sends signals telling me I need to find a loo a bit sharpish. All perfectly normal except for the timing of these rather demanding signals. When I was flying as SLF to Texas fairly regularly, I'd resort to the dreaded Picolax 36 hours before departure. Days, if not weeks, go by perfectly normally but I'm always mindful of loo planning which is a kind of flight planning in reverse.
Having said all this, I'm not totally sure there's not an allergic reaction issue involved since I suspect gluten/wheat of being the main cause of back pain for many years. That's pretty solid science now and the back surgeon agreed. It would take molecular levels of ?? to cause a reaction. So glad all this didn't happen when I was young.
My burden is 'bowel hurry'. I think that's a name he made up. 1 in 500 cases he mentioned casually. Back then that would have made two of us. Tedious, it just sends signals telling me I need to find a loo a bit sharpish. All perfectly normal except for the timing of these rather demanding signals. When I was flying as SLF to Texas fairly regularly, I'd resort to the dreaded Picolax 36 hours before departure. Days, if not weeks, go by perfectly normally but I'm always mindful of loo planning which is a kind of flight planning in reverse.
Having said all this, I'm not totally sure there's not an allergic reaction issue involved since I suspect gluten/wheat of being the main cause of back pain for many years. That's pretty solid science now and the back surgeon agreed. It would take molecular levels of ?? to cause a reaction. So glad all this didn't happen when I was young.
Obviously this isn't terribly helpful in Texas, but I wonder if there isn't anything similar? (It is probably rather "socialist" to Texan sensibilities, but there are some things that governments can do better than anyone else!)
Psychophysiological entity
Well, I'm back in Essex now, and planning my midday trog takes in the wondrous new building that sits upon our Naze cliffs - a monument to lottery money that is quite simplistic in its mandate: you go into a large building with grass on its roof, that cost into seven figures, and take a deep breath. Then you look out of the windows at Walton's Naze. Something you could do before you went in. 
However, having sprinted up the 72' of steps from the beach, I know, that at the top, I will have a posh new loo on my list of diversions.
Sometimes, I like humans.
However, having sprinted up the 72' of steps from the beach, I know, that at the top, I will have a posh new loo on my list of diversions.
Sometimes, I like humans.
Since I have been following this thread I thought I would share my experiences here and ask some advice at the end.
My PSA has been elevated at 7 rising to a stable 12 over the last two years but finally my GP and AME agree with me that whilst watchful waiting is all very well, leaving me until I hit 20 was too much a game of Russian Roulette.
I had a 'trace MRI' last November from which the 'Dotarem' agent nearly finished me off with highly erratic heart rates and wildly fluctuating blood pressures for the following 36 hours. I now understand that the underlying ingredient is a toxic heavy metal called Gadolinium that is rumoured to stay in the body. Many people have chronic onward problems after using it and in the States there is a growing legal case to get its use discontinued. Several varieties are already banned in Europe with Dotarem being one of the few left in use. Tip No1 : Avoid trace MRI's if you can....
The results came back as I suspected with a couple of lesions, one relatively large in the lower section and another smaller above. PiRad 5 and 4 respectively. These required biopsy so in January I was offered a targeted trans perennial one. This in simple terms is a step up from the TRUSS 'Dynorod' fishing trip normally offered but is done under a general anaesthetic with several needles placed through the area between the balls and the bum. I have to say that since a close friend called his TRUSS experience the most pain he had ever experienced in his life I count myself lucky that my discomfort was limited to imitating John Wayne walking for 24 hours, and even that was more for comfort than necessity. Tip No2: Ask for a TP biopsy if you can get one.
Sadly, again as expected the results came back as Gleason 7 (4+3) which seems the industry standard to have to do something about it. As my last PSA was 12 a bone scan has now been completed and that luckily is clear.At last some good news!
Now it's decision time between the sword or the death ray. My urologist is practically pushing me through the operating theatre doors to have surgery. So much so I presume my local health care trust must be running a BOGOF offer! I am 64 and in reasonable health so of course the preference is to recommend a one stop solution with the least risk of complications.
I am seeing the Oncologist next week to discuss HT/RT and in particular the use of SBRT in the form of Cyberknife. This replaces the normal long period of short dose radiation with five days of tightly focused high dose. The benefits seem to be slightly better success rates with lower side effects in collateral damage.
To be honest, whilst I see all the benefits of surgery, especially at my age I am viewing it as a 'lucky dip' that hopefully will clear out all the cancer but in no way can guarantee to do so. I am leaning towards the more scientific approach of starving the cells through HT before blasting them with RT. Both have equal success and failure rates (surgery maybe ten per cent better) but as post surgery all that can be offered is RT plus permanent HT I feel I might as well get on with it and hopefully try to catch all that's lurking in any positive margin outside the prostate. At least post HT/RT there is cryo and HIFU to look at before permanent HT.
My first question though is this. I have been flying for nearly fifty years and in jets for thirty five. Contacting my airline I have been sent my last years radiation record which would indicate that I have probably ingested between 2-3mSv per year over ground radiation. Has anyone any experience of an Oncologist refusing or discouraging treatment because of that? When I look at the amount of radiation planned by either traditional or SBRT routes a previous intake of around 90mSv in my life seems irrelevant.
Second question; I have done a lot of reading and study to make my choice on treatment. I have come across a lot of web sites with people who say they have had complications, infections, rectification procedures post removal. In other words I can find plenty of people online who would say they regretted having a radical prostatectomy. Apart from one bloke with itchy tits I cannot find anyone, anywhere who regrets having HT/RT even though the side effects were unpleasant. Of course one only gets to read about the cases that have gone wrong but my AME is favouring RT and frankly so am I.
However, any thoughts and advice would be welcome right now.
Best Regards.
My PSA has been elevated at 7 rising to a stable 12 over the last two years but finally my GP and AME agree with me that whilst watchful waiting is all very well, leaving me until I hit 20 was too much a game of Russian Roulette.
I had a 'trace MRI' last November from which the 'Dotarem' agent nearly finished me off with highly erratic heart rates and wildly fluctuating blood pressures for the following 36 hours. I now understand that the underlying ingredient is a toxic heavy metal called Gadolinium that is rumoured to stay in the body. Many people have chronic onward problems after using it and in the States there is a growing legal case to get its use discontinued. Several varieties are already banned in Europe with Dotarem being one of the few left in use. Tip No1 : Avoid trace MRI's if you can....
The results came back as I suspected with a couple of lesions, one relatively large in the lower section and another smaller above. PiRad 5 and 4 respectively. These required biopsy so in January I was offered a targeted trans perennial one. This in simple terms is a step up from the TRUSS 'Dynorod' fishing trip normally offered but is done under a general anaesthetic with several needles placed through the area between the balls and the bum. I have to say that since a close friend called his TRUSS experience the most pain he had ever experienced in his life I count myself lucky that my discomfort was limited to imitating John Wayne walking for 24 hours, and even that was more for comfort than necessity. Tip No2: Ask for a TP biopsy if you can get one.
Sadly, again as expected the results came back as Gleason 7 (4+3) which seems the industry standard to have to do something about it. As my last PSA was 12 a bone scan has now been completed and that luckily is clear.At last some good news!
Now it's decision time between the sword or the death ray. My urologist is practically pushing me through the operating theatre doors to have surgery. So much so I presume my local health care trust must be running a BOGOF offer! I am 64 and in reasonable health so of course the preference is to recommend a one stop solution with the least risk of complications.
I am seeing the Oncologist next week to discuss HT/RT and in particular the use of SBRT in the form of Cyberknife. This replaces the normal long period of short dose radiation with five days of tightly focused high dose. The benefits seem to be slightly better success rates with lower side effects in collateral damage.
To be honest, whilst I see all the benefits of surgery, especially at my age I am viewing it as a 'lucky dip' that hopefully will clear out all the cancer but in no way can guarantee to do so. I am leaning towards the more scientific approach of starving the cells through HT before blasting them with RT. Both have equal success and failure rates (surgery maybe ten per cent better) but as post surgery all that can be offered is RT plus permanent HT I feel I might as well get on with it and hopefully try to catch all that's lurking in any positive margin outside the prostate. At least post HT/RT there is cryo and HIFU to look at before permanent HT.
My first question though is this. I have been flying for nearly fifty years and in jets for thirty five. Contacting my airline I have been sent my last years radiation record which would indicate that I have probably ingested between 2-3mSv per year over ground radiation. Has anyone any experience of an Oncologist refusing or discouraging treatment because of that? When I look at the amount of radiation planned by either traditional or SBRT routes a previous intake of around 90mSv in my life seems irrelevant.
Second question; I have done a lot of reading and study to make my choice on treatment. I have come across a lot of web sites with people who say they have had complications, infections, rectification procedures post removal. In other words I can find plenty of people online who would say they regretted having a radical prostatectomy. Apart from one bloke with itchy tits I cannot find anyone, anywhere who regrets having HT/RT even though the side effects were unpleasant. Of course one only gets to read about the cases that have gone wrong but my AME is favouring RT and frankly so am I.
However, any thoughts and advice would be welcome right now.
Best Regards.
TURP vs. Other Treatments
Dear BoeingBoy,
I am not a physician so I am unprepared to give you professional medical advice. I have plenty of hospital experience, however, having worked as specialized technician at Crawford Long Hospital, the teaching facility of Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. The oncology wing housed a number of Delta pilots who had undergone a full prostatic resection (some via TURP, others via abdominal incision), so I don't believe your exposure background radiation would preclude further targeted radiotherapy, pre- or post-surgically. As an aside, one wonders if your vocational dose levels may have been contributory to CA's development.
Funny that you mentioned "John Wayne Walking" and the human perineum. Should you need a laugh, check out my post to Fliegenmong in the thread called "A Delicate One". It's in this Forum.
I know I share the hopes of many other PPRuNers: we wish you a complete and painless cure and recovery!
- Ed
I am not a physician so I am unprepared to give you professional medical advice. I have plenty of hospital experience, however, having worked as specialized technician at Crawford Long Hospital, the teaching facility of Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. The oncology wing housed a number of Delta pilots who had undergone a full prostatic resection (some via TURP, others via abdominal incision), so I don't believe your exposure background radiation would preclude further targeted radiotherapy, pre- or post-surgically. As an aside, one wonders if your vocational dose levels may have been contributory to CA's development.
Funny that you mentioned "John Wayne Walking" and the human perineum. Should you need a laugh, check out my post to Fliegenmong in the thread called "A Delicate One". It's in this Forum.
I know I share the hopes of many other PPRuNers: we wish you a complete and painless cure and recovery!
- Ed
Thanks Cavuman.
I too wondered if after 26.5K hours my radiation was catching up with me. In one way I am glad that it is PCa that I'm dealing with rather than something more aggressive. There's always something to be positive about.
I too wondered if after 26.5K hours my radiation was catching up with me. In one way I am glad that it is PCa that I'm dealing with rather than something more aggressive. There's always something to be positive about.
My GP says, at 73 I need a PSA test only once each year, I would have thought once every six months would be better. How do others feel on this thanks, all test results so far have been normal?
Nothing to stop you asking for a full blood MOT on an annual basis followed by PSA every six months if that is what you want for peace of mind.
I know that whatever route I follow I will be making a pest of myself at the GP's keeping up with the tests, along with the bowel cancer screening program too.
But then being a pest is something I'm rather well known for........
I know that whatever route I follow I will be making a pest of myself at the GP's keeping up with the tests, along with the bowel cancer screening program too.
But then being a pest is something I'm rather well known for........
I had Brachytherapy at age 56, almost 16 years ago.
My PSA was elevated and my Gleason was getting to a worrisome level, my Urologist wanted to cut everything out initially, but I got a second opinion and after waiting about 3 months for the Brachytherapy (and my PSA rising) I had the Brachy.
I have had no problems ever since, and my PSA's are at the margin of detectability.
Lots of luck.
f
My PSA was elevated and my Gleason was getting to a worrisome level, my Urologist wanted to cut everything out initially, but I got a second opinion and after waiting about 3 months for the Brachytherapy (and my PSA rising) I had the Brachy.
I have had no problems ever since, and my PSA's are at the margin of detectability.
Lots of luck.
f
Thanks everyone. I am glad to add that my bone scan has been returned as clear and I am staged at T1C which is better than I'd hoped for.
Met the surgeon yesterday to discuss that route but will be meeting the oncologist next week who I suspect will get my custom.
BUS1TER I have PM'd you.
Met the surgeon yesterday to discuss that route but will be meeting the oncologist next week who I suspect will get my custom.
BUS1TER I have PM'd you.
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Prostate cancer killed a friend of mine in about three months. As I'm over 60 and so many reports of it have been in the news, I've finally booked a exam next week. My fear of cancer is greater than that of a doctors finger up my ass!