Medicos save the day, again.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Medicos save the day, again.
Once again, a severe medical emergency aboard our flight, three hours into a seven hour leg, doctors and nurses traveling incognito save the day.
Continually astonished at the selfless service these people provide aboard our aircraft on a continuous basis. Without expectation of reward, of any kind, a big shout out to you folks, heartfelt thanks.
I am humbled.
Continually astonished at the selfless service these people provide aboard our aircraft on a continuous basis. Without expectation of reward, of any kind, a big shout out to you folks, heartfelt thanks.
I am humbled.
To the OP, I'm glad you appreciate the effort made by medical/nursing volunteers inflight. As Radgirl pointed out, there are obvious medico-legal issues surrounding 'good samaritan' acts outside of one's normal place of work and I've known colleagues who (during flights in US airspace) have deliberately not come forward for the fear of possible legal sequelae in case anything were to happen.
Thankfully I've only had to offer my services once, during an inter-European flight and the CC did actually produce pre-printed legal waiver forms for us to sign (LH). Does anyone know if this is common practice among other carriers?
Thankfully I've only had to offer my services once, during an inter-European flight and the CC did actually produce pre-printed legal waiver forms for us to sign (LH). Does anyone know if this is common practice among other carriers?
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Pretty sure the MDU give doctors and nurses world wide "Good Samaritan" cover. Must say, on the odd occasion I've got involved in the UK, I've sloped away once the paramedics arrived, usually 'cos they know what to do better than I do, guess it's more difficult on an aeroplane.
I don't know of many clinicians who wouldn't get stuck in if the sh*t hit the fan
I don't know of many clinicians who wouldn't get stuck in if the sh*t hit the fan
The problem is that most NHS staff in the UK dont have insurance - they are covered by crown indemnity and even if they are member of the MDU it is to provide independent advice with NHS claims. In NZ we have no fault compensation so no insurance. In much of europe the insurance policies are 
An indemnity form isnt worth the paper it is written on - it would have to be signed by the patient without duress, and because they are ill in an aluminium tube they have no choice. A third party may say they will cover, but I wonder if Willy Walsh or Uncle Patrick really would pay out a claim for several millions.
That being said many countries do have good samaritan acts so you wont be sued provided you only use the skills you normally use. The concern is that you cant choose the nature of the illness.
The US also passed good samaritan acts but it is a US citizen's right to sue, so it doesnt really cover a direct claim from the patient. The big issue is that even arguing you shouldnt be sued could cost a lot of dosh or even result in you being a guest of Uncle Sam's whilst the lawyers sort it out.
Personally I always help outside US airspace and I wouldnt fly a US carrier
but it is important not to get out of your depth and to quick to admit you cannot help.
In the old days we always got a free ticket in return and a letter of thanks. Nowadays carriers seem to think it is our obligation. I prefer the cabin calls when the fuel load is still high and the divert airport expensive........... I also ask if there is a lawyer on board and then ask him if he will defend me pro bono if I get sued
An indemnity form isnt worth the paper it is written on - it would have to be signed by the patient without duress, and because they are ill in an aluminium tube they have no choice. A third party may say they will cover, but I wonder if Willy Walsh or Uncle Patrick really would pay out a claim for several millions.
That being said many countries do have good samaritan acts so you wont be sued provided you only use the skills you normally use. The concern is that you cant choose the nature of the illness.
The US also passed good samaritan acts but it is a US citizen's right to sue, so it doesnt really cover a direct claim from the patient. The big issue is that even arguing you shouldnt be sued could cost a lot of dosh or even result in you being a guest of Uncle Sam's whilst the lawyers sort it out.
Personally I always help outside US airspace and I wouldnt fly a US carrier
but it is important not to get out of your depth and to quick to admit you cannot help.In the old days we always got a free ticket in return and a letter of thanks. Nowadays carriers seem to think it is our obligation. I prefer the cabin calls when the fuel load is still high and the divert airport expensive........... I also ask if there is a lawyer on board and then ask him if he will defend me pro bono if I get sued
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We don't have many clinicians coming to grief here Radgirl. We are (mostly) covered for potential mistakes through vicarious liability, whilst at work, but outside of that, we have to rely on indemnity from the RCN and MDU. The rules have changed very recently, so perhaps you are correct. (And perhaps I need to go over the fine print.)
Switch on the radio in the UK now, and you won't be far away from a helpful lawyer who will be only to pleased to guide you through the process of suing your dentist/quack/nurse.
One of the reasons I'm leaving this rat race, love the patients, hate the system
I still say though, at this present time, most clinicians would step in, perhaps more of us need to lose our home/car/speedboat before we learn.
Switch on the radio in the UK now, and you won't be far away from a helpful lawyer who will be only to pleased to guide you through the process of suing your dentist/quack/nurse.
One of the reasons I'm leaving this rat race, love the patients, hate the system
I still say though, at this present time, most clinicians would step in, perhaps more of us need to lose our home/car/speedboat before we learn.
Radgirl, there are medical emergencies in US aircraft, but I have never heard of a lawsuit against a volunteer responder. I would assume that there may have been. How many are you familiar with?
Thanks Rick777 and Gingernut.
Rick you are probably right that a volunteer responder is safe, because they have no professional qualification. They may be a factory first aider but they are not a healthcare professional and the bill passed in about 1995 covers that. The issue is if you are a RN or anesthesiologist....
I am sure the risk is tiny, but hey this is a rumour network and I have had a response to my posting! The US has fantastic data on claims but they are classified by specialty and there isnt one for airplane volunteers! I know from friends who are US MDs and attorneys that there have been cases but that is gossip
What is interesting Gingernut is your posting. You worry about litigation in the UK but the truth and the perception are different. For example in the US there were 369,995,000 anaesthetics between 1990 and 2011. Only 5230 lawsuits were closed in that time and a third of the claims werent even for general anesthesia. There were at least 8000 deaths during operations which were not expected or from 'natural causes' so patients were three times as likely to die from a hiccup as to sue. In the UK there are no good figures, but we believe there were only 227 claims started for general anaesthesia between 1995 and 2009 and most failed!!! So I would like you to think again about leaving as the risk isnt the same as the perception and I for one have really enjoyed you participating on pprune.
Somewhere out there is a medical rumour board with doctors saying how dangerous it it to fly.....
Rick you are probably right that a volunteer responder is safe, because they have no professional qualification. They may be a factory first aider but they are not a healthcare professional and the bill passed in about 1995 covers that. The issue is if you are a RN or anesthesiologist....
I am sure the risk is tiny, but hey this is a rumour network and I have had a response to my posting! The US has fantastic data on claims but they are classified by specialty and there isnt one for airplane volunteers! I know from friends who are US MDs and attorneys that there have been cases but that is gossip
What is interesting Gingernut is your posting. You worry about litigation in the UK but the truth and the perception are different. For example in the US there were 369,995,000 anaesthetics between 1990 and 2011. Only 5230 lawsuits were closed in that time and a third of the claims werent even for general anesthesia. There were at least 8000 deaths during operations which were not expected or from 'natural causes' so patients were three times as likely to die from a hiccup as to sue. In the UK there are no good figures, but we believe there were only 227 claims started for general anaesthesia between 1995 and 2009 and most failed!!! So I would like you to think again about leaving as the risk isnt the same as the perception and I for one have really enjoyed you participating on pprune.
Somewhere out there is a medical rumour board with doctors saying how dangerous it it to fly.....
Está servira para distraerle.
Expressed as an average, the % of anaesthetic cases versus law suits over an eleven year period tend toward the argument that morticians suffer a higher rate of legal attrition than medicos for the errors, or successes of their ways. Perhaps that's why there aren't too many undertakers who used to be doctors. There are though, by all account, many of the latter who admirably perform the duties and functions of the former practising in the UK - and elsewhere of course.
Plastic PPRuNer
Responded once - patient survived (just)
As for the legalities, the day I fail to respond to an emergency because I'm scared of being sued will be the day I know I've left the human race.
[I got an unexpected first class upgrade for the return flight - Jeez, I didn't realise such luxury existed! FA practically gave me a BJ with my brandy!]
As for the legalities, the day I fail to respond to an emergency because I'm scared of being sued will be the day I know I've left the human race.
[I got an unexpected first class upgrade for the return flight - Jeez, I didn't realise such luxury existed! FA practically gave me a BJ with my brandy!]
Está servira para distraerle.
And indeed, by the same token, the day I or my family tried to sue the medic who'd tried to save my life would mark the day we'd abrogated human responsibility.
(I or my testators might make an exception were the saviour a Scientologist for in that case it would be the aliens who'd pay up.)
(I or my testators might make an exception were the saviour a Scientologist for in that case it would be the aliens who'd pay up.)
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@AngioJet, it is common practice with the two larger german carriers. For the smaller one i can say with some certainty that the company insures any first responder against any lawsuit up to a few hundred millions i believe.
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Radgirl, there are medical emergencies in US aircraft, but I have never heard of a lawsuit against a volunteer responder. I would assume that there may have been. How many are you familiar with?
This was in an unpressurised twin.
As the Captain I was advised that even if the family signed a disclaimer I could be sued by the family if he died enroute.
i was advised that as Captain I had a duty of care and had to pass that duty of care to someone medically qualified. Ie someone who would say that this patient was fit to fly, the level of medical equipment on the aircraft, the nurses or doctors required on the flight etc.
It all got too complicated and in fact the poor guy died two days later so chances are he would have died on my aircraft.
It is not just medical personnel but crew who have to be aware.
Correct me if I am wrong
Radgirl BTW thanks for the PM and advice on my personal situation i did read it
Last edited by Pace; 28th Feb 2014 at 16:44.
Thanks Pace. You are correct - it is a minefield. Just as EASA can ruin your life by piling on stupid red tape, so can coroners and others in strange and not so strange countries. Not so long ago we had an elderly cancer patient who not unexpectedly died on the way home to die. If she had died in Spanish airspace the aircraft would have been impounded for a week.......
That being said, most countries do not hold aircrew responsible for fly: no fly decisions. The commander is responsible for the safety of the medical equipment and it is interesting how many pilots allow freestanding electronic kit on board. I remember on a CAA final check ride after modifying am aircraft for air ambulance work we fired up a defibrillator established on 5 mile finals. Luckily it was a dummy run and CAVOK.
I agree I would always help, but one thing to bear in mind is that US paramedics and hospitals sometimes have a jaundiced view that any non US healthcare worker is slightly inferior. If they complain to homeland security there is a possibility you may not be leaving the same day. That is why some air ambulance companies fly anywhere including warzones but not the US....
That being said, most countries do not hold aircrew responsible for fly: no fly decisions. The commander is responsible for the safety of the medical equipment and it is interesting how many pilots allow freestanding electronic kit on board. I remember on a CAA final check ride after modifying am aircraft for air ambulance work we fired up a defibrillator established on 5 mile finals. Luckily it was a dummy run and CAVOK.
I agree I would always help, but one thing to bear in mind is that US paramedics and hospitals sometimes have a jaundiced view that any non US healthcare worker is slightly inferior. If they complain to homeland security there is a possibility you may not be leaving the same day. That is why some air ambulance companies fly anywhere including warzones but not the US....
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Radgirl
My response is just a warning to any pilot especially of private aircraft who maybe asked to do a friend a favour.
What is well intended and maybe even done for free could end up as a nightmare if anything goes wrong even if family or the ill person sign a letter removing responsibility for the flight from the pilot.
I did do a medical flight on a private jet but the patient was accompanied by a Doctor and nurse and relevant medical equipment and medication for the trip.
The other potential trip which was declined (thankfully) was in a piston twin and unpressurised which itself could cause problems.
My response is just a warning to any pilot especially of private aircraft who maybe asked to do a friend a favour.
What is well intended and maybe even done for free could end up as a nightmare if anything goes wrong even if family or the ill person sign a letter removing responsibility for the flight from the pilot.
I did do a medical flight on a private jet but the patient was accompanied by a Doctor and nurse and relevant medical equipment and medication for the trip.
The other potential trip which was declined (thankfully) was in a piston twin and unpressurised which itself could cause problems.
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This hysterical fear of volunteering medical help in an emergency makes me ill. I'm with Mac. I was fortunate enough to obtain medical training. For me to sit on my hands and watch someone suffer due to my lack of assisting would be a moral lapse of the highest order.
I'm not aware of a single case in the US or on a US airline where a physician responding to an in-flight emergency has been sued for his/her activities. Samaritan laws specifically protect such activity, and also require that such service be provided without expectation of compensation, and the extent that the emergency requires. Non US medical folks seem to have an inordinate fear of this.
I have responded a couple of times, as have others on board. We quickly determine who is best qualified for the matter at hand, do what we can, then return to our bored existence. Now that most of the airlines have linkage to ground-based medical consultation, the whole issue is easier to manage. I hope medical personnel will continue to respond appropriately.
I'm not aware of a single case in the US or on a US airline where a physician responding to an in-flight emergency has been sued for his/her activities. Samaritan laws specifically protect such activity, and also require that such service be provided without expectation of compensation, and the extent that the emergency requires. Non US medical folks seem to have an inordinate fear of this.
I have responded a couple of times, as have others on board. We quickly determine who is best qualified for the matter at hand, do what we can, then return to our bored existence. Now that most of the airlines have linkage to ground-based medical consultation, the whole issue is easier to manage. I hope medical personnel will continue to respond appropriately.
I hope so too Obgraham and like you I would help. But please remember you are a US health care worker perhaps even an MD. whilst I have received nothing but the greatest respect from US doctors, other US healthcare workers have seemed shall we say less positive of us foreigners
Anyhow this thread is becoming repetitive and providing no new interest so I will retire from it
Anyhow this thread is becoming repetitive and providing no new interest so I will retire from it
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True story of someone getting home on the fly.
wheel chair onto the plane person in the wheelchair not responsive but son with chair. Son dumps in seat and says dad is fine just old.
Son sits next to dad for the 50 min sector.
Son then sticks dad in chair at other end lots of smiles etc.
Crew walking through exit gate when son plus wheelchair meets sister.
Sister hands straight to dads neck and says to brother "when did he go then".
Neither of them seeing the crew behind he announces "in the car on the way to the airport".
Both doctors BTW.
wheel chair onto the plane person in the wheelchair not responsive but son with chair. Son dumps in seat and says dad is fine just old.
Son sits next to dad for the 50 min sector.
Son then sticks dad in chair at other end lots of smiles etc.
Crew walking through exit gate when son plus wheelchair meets sister.
Sister hands straight to dads neck and says to brother "when did he go then".
Neither of them seeing the crew behind he announces "in the car on the way to the airport".
Both doctors BTW.
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If ever the situation should arise on an AF aircraft, French law requires by-standers to render assistance to those in need.
Art. 223-6 of the Code pénal:
Sera puni ... quiconque s'abstient volontairement de porter à une personne en péril l'assistance que, sans risque pour lui ou pour les tiers, il pouvait lui prêter soit par son action personnelle, soit en provoquant un secours.
and Art. of the Code of medical ethics R.4127-9
« Tout médecin qui se trouve en présence d'un malade ou d'un blessé en péril ou, informé qu'un malade ou un blessé est en péril, doit lui porter assistance ou s'assurer qu'il reçoit les soins nécessaires. »
Ironically, allegations of "non assistance à une personne en danger" are the grounds on which many claims of negligence are made against doctors and nurses in France.
Sera puni ... quiconque s'abstient volontairement de porter à une personne en péril l'assistance que, sans risque pour lui ou pour les tiers, il pouvait lui prêter soit par son action personnelle, soit en provoquant un secours.
and Art. of the Code of medical ethics R.4127-9
« Tout médecin qui se trouve en présence d'un malade ou d'un blessé en péril ou, informé qu'un malade ou un blessé est en péril, doit lui porter assistance ou s'assurer qu'il reçoit les soins nécessaires. »
Ironically, allegations of "non assistance à une personne en danger" are the grounds on which many claims of negligence are made against doctors and nurses in France.
Last edited by CelticRambler; 3rd Mar 2014 at 11:50. Reason: fix c&p weirdness