2close

In response to Dr Pape's request for further information on the appeal hearing I would be more than happy to share the details with him, which I shall furnish directly via e-mail.

I shall then discuss with him what we can (or should) make public.

Arthur Pape

Thanks "2Close". I would appreciate your sending me that on my home email, which is [email protected]

rohit945

Hey Guys,

After 4 years of dejection and spending over USD70k on flight training, I finally found this post which has surely instilled some confidence back in me.

I have been a target of CVD in India and it has been very difficult for me to convince the DGCA (Director General of Civil Aviation) and DGMS (Director General of Medical Services) that I am perfectly fit to fly as per FAA Class 1 Medicals.

I failed the DGCA Class 1 medicals in 2007 and then appealed against the decision citing successful completion of flight training from USA, provided I prove to them that there is no defect from the All India Institute of Medical sciences, AIIMS (which is considered to be the top Govt medical facility in the country), and by gods grace I managed to pass the test and also take an expert opinion from an eye doctor in Mumbai who told me that I have a mild color blindness but he didn't see any major issue as I only missed out on 2 plates and also passed the lantern test without any trouble. After submitting the above reports I was given an appeal at Airforce station Bangalore where I was put through Ishihara and Latern test both in visually dim rooms and the latern test was conducted under dark room conditions at a distance of over 10 feet and the frequency of switching colors was after every second and I was expected to give the right answer without delay, which found dumb.. I was put through white green and red color identification test and the judgement was passed within 10 seconds that I am permanently color blind.

Since we are given only one appeal and the appeal I got was stamped permanently unfit due to CVD my career as a pilot ended there. However I am confident that I have no such problem and can carry out my duty as a pilot with equal proficiency and responsibility as any other pilot.
I am not sure if anyone from India is facing such a problem but they are then I suggest we collectively submit reports from successful cases to DGCA and Ministry of Civil Aviation to reconsider our cases and grant us Class 1 medicals.

If there is any help you can provide me with then I would surely appreciate it.

Thank you

Rohit

outofwhack

Rohit,

I suggest you join the Colour Vision Defective Pilots Association (CVDPA). You will learn a lot from them.

Google them to find their website.


OOW

pponte

Rohit,

if you read the full thread, the only way to go forward is to prove them wrong. Unfortunately letters to Aviation Authorities won't do the job, we'll have to take them to courts. Join and subscribe to CVDPA so that this can be fought together at an international level.

matt1991

Hi everyone!

Just had the CAD test today at Gatwick, and unfortunately failed (big blow to my dreams of being an airline pilot!). However, I failed with a score of 12.68 (Was borderline on the 1st test so did it 3 times in total and the results were averaged) which is only 0.68 away from the threshold (protan).
I was told that as I was so close to threshold it may be worth my while resitting it and it may bring my average down. Anyone got any advice as to whether it's worth it?

Scottish.CPL

Who advised you on the retest, how much did they charge you, there is two versions of cad.!!

matt1991

I paid £125 for the test. My session included the plates (which i failed...i knew i would), then they did the quick CAD, failed that...so i went on to do the full 15 minute CAD. I got borderline on that one so did 2 more, and they took the average of that, so i think i did both versions. (The quick one, and then the full one)

For the first part (up until the end of 1st full 15 minute CAD) I had a bloke, i forget his name...and then a lady took over.
After taking a while to get my results (she was going in and out of different rooms whilst i sat in the waiting room..presumably talking to other staff?), she eventually called me back and told me I'd failed.
She said she wouldn't advise me to redo it if I had failed it by a mile. She said that if i was to take it again they would average it over all the tests i have taken and it would possibly pull me below the 12 limit (equally...I could do worse haha). She was a lovely lady, but i'm just abit confused as to why retaking would help me. Surely averaging over all the tests does infact make it alot more difficult to pull it down below the 12 threshold...
Money making tactics or a hint that i may pass next time, god knows!?
All i know is that if i do decide to go again i'm going to take alot more breaks, i didn't and that was probably my downfall...by the 3rd one my eyes were tired, i should have stopped for a few minutes but i just wanted to get it over with!

matt1991

Hi again, after ringing up CAA today I was told that the only accepted colour vision test is the CAD. However on their website Colour Vision Guidance | Medical | Personal Licences and Training it says you can do other tests as well. These tests are available at London City Uni and I asked whether results from there can be used as acceptable evidence (I was told I could). However, I once again asked about other tests (lantern, nagel anomaoscopy etc) and I was told that the only test was the CAD, despite me saying that it says on their website that other tests can be taken.
Confused! Are these other tests still accepted for a class 1?
Thanks!

outofwhack

Matt,
I think you would be doing yourself a favour if you got licenced in another European country where CAD is not accepted. You could try the Spectrolux lantern which is accepted in Europe.

Not that i think its the right thing to do. The right thing to do is join the CVDPA and support a legal challenge.

Scottish.CPL

matt

to answer that question, the cad was designed to replace the holmes wright lantern, as it was old and was not being produced so parts were not available, as they are to be serviced ie, bulbs need replaced and colour filters need to be clean.. i believe the byne lantern is still available, to be honest all the test equipment is still available, but probably in storage at gatwick, you not going to destroy equipment which cost allot, even though it not being used. any other results that you get ie from city university for cad is still valid, after all they designed it for the CAA!!

the spectrolux is still available but in switzerland, you can google the test name and find the location and address for it..

matt1991

Thanks for your replies outofwhack and Scottish.CPL!
I'm going down to London City Uni tomorrow for several colour tests; i'm hoping for the best! It's beginning to become quite costly going to and from London (I live in Manchester, UK) - so let's hope its worthwhile!
I'll let you know what the outcome is; hopefully I'll pass one of the approved tests!

Scottish.CPL

I breathe caution in the wind, if you get this before you go to city,

check the number of error on the ishihara plates out of 15, second they will do the anomalscope with you, this test has its flaws, you will be told you need to match the red portion to the yellow portion, and the same with the red, they till tell you, you need to match it, this is not true and i have been screwed over with this, in theory a colour normal cannot match any combinations, this is why peeople find it hard to pass, i was told i must make a match, and you don't, i could not match exactly on any of them and they took a reading, 4 scale units is possible to gain but you are not told how to use it correctly.

second the lantern holmes wright, they should test at high intensity, not low, JAA protocall states testing at high, CAA do not follow this and screwed me over on that,

the cad, well you have already seen and done this,

best of luck, but be ready to accept some tests are easier, and some are harder..

2close

I am currently looking into Disability Discrimination Law in European countries and it seems that some are more compliant with the European Directive on Disability Discrimination than others.

Whilst CVD may not be recognised as a disability in the UK Courts (and I stress it has not been fully tested within the area of employment - the Strathclyde Police case seems to have gone quiet) it would undoubtedly fall within the definition of a disability in other countries. Therefore, it could be advisable to undertake your Class 1 Medical in one of those countries, keeping open the option that it may be possible to take the national aviation authority to Court on grounds of disability discrimination, should they refuse to issue a Class 1 medical purely on CVD grounds.

My resources are limited therefore I don't expect my research to be completed in the immediately foreseeable future, however, maybe the CVDPA could look further into this.

matt1991

So i'm back from City Uni - scored 10.9 on the CAD test first time. However, I'm thinking that the CAA will probably want to average that score with the others I got at CAA Gatwick (ringing up tomorrow to find out). That in itself is plain stupid as technically if I had not done the test before, this would have been an outright pass! Yellow-blue on the CAD was better than average apparently. Also, the fact I scored differently surely shows the test isn't 100% accurate/sensitive....hmmm!
Nagel anomoloscope - I was told that if I couldn't find a match to get it as close as possible but make sure I make the point that imo they don't match perfectly. (I did this on basically every one)

Don't know the results of the other tests I did yet; I shall let you know when I get them!

Scottish.CPL

That's what I've always said the cad is a arcade game and yes gatwick will average the result, if they don't they are breaking the guidelines but they are known as rule breakers. All i can say is welcome to the battle of proving you are colour normal or safe, I'm green weak and I scored 7.44 and the pass is 6 scale units or less so 1.44 over the limit did city offer you the fast cad or the long version , if you get 4 units on the nagal then you are good to go.

matt1991

Well I'm hoping they'll give me some lee-way! I need this pass haha! Hopefully they'll be kind to me when I ring up...
They did the 9 minute version and I passed it first time (got borderline at CAA and had to repeat it so they could calculate an average).
Not sure about my results on the Nagel yet - I have no inkling how well I did either.
I can understand how you must feel; it's really frustrating and for you probably more-so as the lower threshold for green makes it even harder to reduce it by averaging.

Scottish.CPL

well what ever happens i wish you luck, but you will get expereice with the BS that the CAA/JAA impose, one one had you would have been better going the city and getting that result, and then giving it to gatwick, but thats how it went..

The other main issue we all seem to share is the unfairness of the pass for ishihara, 13/15 is a pass on the test, but caa want the full 15/15, this constitutes the standards of the RAF, one doctor at gatwick said to me we need to be fail, and i laughed and said dont talk you work and represent an organisation that does not believe in being fare.

my problem was the cad test for me was the long 15 min one and i was tired and red eyed after it, and to be honest i was making mistakes and a few targets i new i pressed the wrong direction but could clearly see them..

dobbin1

Unless you want a night rating as a LAPL, in which case it seems you are safe with a 9/13 pass. Doh!

Scottish.CPL

yeah dobbin1,

The thing is though, LAPL is controlled by EASA regulations, but the cad is not easa approved, i see they have it on the caa website as an alternative, but its not approved by EASA.

I still believe that the reason for the lower pass on the ishihara is because it tying in with the ICAO standards that are lower than the test its self, let not forget that EASA is not ICAO compliant. The colour vision test that are used are based on brightness, and not recignition, ie a light gun test is a bright red.green.white..

your LAPL medical is based on GP desision to fly, and not by CAA, this is the reason that caa issued an amendment gardening night vrf regualtions, becuase suspect that the amount of LAPL night application will increase..

whose of you like myself that are deemed cp2 by acheiveing 13/15 plates, but are colour normal, but deemed colour unsafe.. utter sh**