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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4

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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4

Old 12th Sep 2012, 16:39
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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One can say there are two types of discrimination. 'Just' and 'unjust'.

An example of just discrimination is stopping a person with a serious cardiac problem from being in command of a fast vehicle carrying other people if they could drop dead at any time and therefore cause injury to others.

An example of unjust discrimination is denying a person an entire career path based on a load of assumptions about what they can and can't see when they can prove repeatedly to their peers that they can perform the task as capably as any other person and further, there is zero evidence of their condition ever causing an accident or incident ever! Other suitable examples of unjust discrimination that come to mind would be racism and sexism.

If someone with a disability can perform all the required tasks as well as someone without the disability they should not be barred from doing it!

Last edited by outofwhack; 12th Sep 2012 at 18:16.
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Old 13th Sep 2012, 01:21
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Bealzebub,

I think we all agree that no one wants to see a degradation in safety. The issue that I've got is that none of the aviation colour vision tests actually test whether we can safely perform our duties as pilots. All the tests throughout the world are basically colour naming tests which are designed to be difficult for colour defectives to pass. Most of the tests are conducted in laboratories and are not reflective of the environments that pilots operate in.

Visual perception is a hugely complex area and a decision on whether a pilot can operate safely needs to be based on evidence. Aviation authorities throughout the world assume that because we can't name a colour that makes us unsafe. These decisions are typically made by beaurocrats who have normal colour vision and have no idea what us colour defectives see or how we've learnt to adapt throughout our entire lives.

I fly for an airline in Australia and regularly fly into busy international airports at night and often with weather conditions such as those you describe. I do operate EFIS equipped aircraft. I do fly approaches using PAPI. I am regularly assessed in both the simulator and on line checks in the aircraft itself and have always passed without any issues whatsoever (and have done so over my last 15 years of flying experience). However, when it comes to colour vision tests, I fail them miserably!

There are many other examples of professional pilots just like me in Australia. Therefore the link between an individual's ability to name colours and being able to fly complex aircraft in complex environments is tenuous at best. The fact that I can have a rewarding airline career here in Australia, yet if I was to go to Europe or even across the Tasman to New Zealand and would be restricted from even flying a C172 at night surely highlights that there is a major problem with the standards and the assumptions on which they are based.

The reality is that there is simply no evidence to prove that we are any less safe than our colour normal peers. As outofwhack points out, it is nothing more than 'unjust' discrimination.
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Old 16th Sep 2012, 14:39
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BP that's great evidence!

BTW today Dr. Arthur Pape of the CVDPA is presenting a paper to the International Congress of Aviation and Space Medicine (ICASM) conference in Melbourne about the 3 Australian CVD (protanope) airline pilots and the final Australian AAT court case set to start mid October to eradicate the last vestiges of unjust discrimination left in our system that still hinders the protanopes.


"2012 ICASM Congress | 60th International Congress of Aviation & Space Medicine"

Last edited by outofwhack; 16th Sep 2012 at 14:40.
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Old 16th Sep 2012, 22:05
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well ive just checked the caa website and they have now got the Lapl requirements on, and more important the colour vision requirments, 9/15 plates.. for the time being it is a good impact, I will be applying for lapl and for a night raing, its rather funny that the medical form is more or less identical to the FAA form. Caa have also placed the instructions for all the colour vsion testing processes..

I also found out that the caa are charging to two fee's for the cad test, one for a screen only test, and the full fee for full testing, i asked caa what this was for, and the screen is a 30 second test on several targets on the critical scale, if one fails to achieve the pass score, then the full cad is done,

I was not given this will be asking them to retest me, personally i dont want to go back to lgw, as the times i have been regarding colour vision, always has a negative, and city university is a pain on the traveling as well, but we will see..
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Old 19th Sep 2012, 19:49
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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How can it make any sense that a LAPL is safe to fly at night with a 9/15 pass while a PPL or CPL is unsafe at the same standard? You could not make this up

LAPL privileges are embedded in the PPL and CPL. So if I go to an AME and scrape a 9/15 pass on the plates I can do a night rating, but only use it within the LAPL privileges. Doh!
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Old 20th Sep 2012, 09:03
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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ano mate, but its better that nothing at the moment , have you taken the cad test? just out on curiosity dobbin1..

the caa have also amended the vfr night regulations, i bet you that whats happening is that now lapl has reduced cp standards, caa or easa are preparing for an increase in night ratings, the standards for the vrf at night is the same as the icao, ie like the faa, also the medical form for gp's is the same format as faa form,

cp standards for the faa and lapl are getting closer, lapl is still stricter at 9 plates but faa is still 7 or more errors on the 24 plate, did you happen to see my last message regarding cad?
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Old 20th Sep 2012, 12:40
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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I have not yet taken the CAD. I was under the impression that it was not approved for EASA anyway.

I failed 13 out of 15 plates at Gatwick so I think even LAPL night flying is out for me.
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Old 20th Sep 2012, 13:01
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hi, yeah the cad is still valid for now, maybe work taking it a city first, or gatwick direct, i know that gatwick don't do the lanterns now..

when you say you fail the plates, do you mis-read the plates, or dont see anything?

in my experience the plates at gatwick are faded, cause ive taken then at local opticians, and at university clinic and passed, as the plates were nice and bright?
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 16:35
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I went to the CAA today and converted my JAR CPL into an EASA CPL, using my restricted JAR class 1 medical. So now I have an EASA CPL, at least until my JAR medical runs out.

When it does I will not be able to get an EASA class 1, because the EASA rules prohibit the addition of the CVD restrictions to a class 1. This means that my CPL will revert to PPL privileges. I can continue to instruct for PPL and LAPL, but I will not be able to instruct for CPL. Not a big deal to me personally, because I don't have ambitions in that direction - however it could be a blow to someone like me hoping to move up the instructor ladder to the more lucrative CPL instruction rung.
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 17:55
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Hi mate, well thanks for advising this, I got some info from CAA regarding certain things. First one was the two charges for CAD, aparently the Cad has to levels, the first is ascreening test which is 41 pounds, and this is the equivelant of the ishihara plates, a sinple screen, supposed to test us on a 30 second screen with a series of primary targets that concentrate of the hardest areas of the colour levels, well i never got this and politly asked for concideration for retest..

I still think there will be more changes needed,
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 00:31
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Hi all,

Last week Dr Arthur Pape delivered a major presentation to the International Congress of Aviation and Space Medicine (ICASM) Conference held in Melbourne. It was attended by over 400 aviation medical experts from around the world.

The presentation was entitled "Case Studies: Australian Professional Pilots with the Colour Vision Defect of Protanopia."


It highlighted the fact that there is no link between tests of ability to name colours and tests of the "safe performance of duties" as pilots.

The presentation was reportedly very well recieved and is sure to generate further discussions amongst aviation medico's as to the relevance of colour vision testing.

Last edited by brissypilot; 25th Sep 2012 at 03:07.
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 01:04
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I think you need to get some facts right to start with. I was at the meeting as well as at the lecture. The youtube video is not of the actual presentation at the meeting, but recorded at some other time. Total registrations for the meeting were around 460 (including day registrations and some partners). On any given day, there were around 400 present, of which about 200 were from Australia. These were a mix of military, DAMEs (and equivalent), engineers, nurses, researchers, pilots, adventurers, and a small number of regulators (including from CASA).

Dr Pape's 10 min talk was well delivered, but had marginal scientific relevance in terms of statistical significance (as is the case with many low-number case studies). The feeling I got was that Dr Pape was being a little disingenuous in his repeated line that these pilots were being disadvantaged by their inability to name colours. The main function of the test is not the naming of colours, but rather the ability to discriminate between colours. There was a bit too much "used car salesman" in it for me.

There was some broad agreement that the tower signal gun test was of little relevance in modern aviation.

It certainly promted significant discussion, especially the apparent discrepancy between the ability of pilots to fly in command of aircraft of certain categories. The feeling I got from those I spoke to (including a number of international delegates), was that this discrepancy would be better resolved by tightening the current standard rather than relaxing it. This was due to the complex, and often relatively subtle use of colour in modern cockpits (it is no longer a red/green/white environment).
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 03:53
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Thanks ausdoc for clarifying the numbers present - post edited.

Having been at the conference, you will no doubt be aware of how deeply passionate Dr Pape is about this issue. As a result of his dedication and persistance to make a difference back in the late 1980's with the successful AAT challenges, there would now be thousands of Australian colour defective pilots who have gone on to have fulfilling careers. I've never heard of any of those having had an accident or incident as a result of a colour vision deficiency.

I believe he is simply trying to tidy up the last loose ends of the campaign and the pilots he describes in his presentation are a perfect example of how CVD's demonstrate that they can operate safely and professionally, despite their inability to pass colour vision tests. Three pilots with over 17,000 hours of combined experience with impeccable safety records, on complex aircraft types (including EFIS equipped) must surely be testament to this.

I disagree with your statement that the main function of the test is not the naming of colours, because that is exactly what candidates are required to demonstrate. I've done both of the tests which are mentioned in the presentation and for example with the signal gun test, if you score one light wrong it is classed as a fail. Similarly, the PAPI simulation test does not bear any resemblence to the real thing. Colour defectives will always have trouble passing any colour vision test.

I believe what needs to be more closely examined is the way pilots cognitively process information. Flying an aircraft and making appropriate decisions based upon information presented is far more complex than simply being able to identify and name a colour. If these pilots can (and have) safely demonstrated that they can perform all the requirements of their job relevant to the ATPL licences they each hold, why should they be discriminated against from exercising their licence's privileges?
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 10:45
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but had marginal scientific relevance in terms of statistical significance (as is the case with many low-number case studies)
As a professional engineer [and professional pilot], I would deduce that zero evidence of error in over 15000 flight hours of 3 pilots would provide ample 'scientific relevance in terms of statistical significance' to support the premise that reliable colour discrimination is not required in the task of piloting an aircraft.

Further, those with protanopia, like these 3 pilots, are supposed to have more severe colour deficiency than the vast majority of colour deficient pilots.
I think some aviation doctors and regulators alike are too scared to listen to logic and historical evidence that colour deficient pilots pose no increased risk to aviation safety.

Road transport authorities world-wide gave up banning colour deficient drivers long ago. Why? - because the evidence shows they are able to perform the task of driving as safely as a colour normal.

Last edited by outofwhack; 25th Sep 2012 at 11:49.
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 12:21
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Hi folks,
It is a challenging task to make a point that has relevance in just ten minutes. I think the essential matter is that pilots perform their duties safely by assimilating and responding to vast amounts of complex information. It can be demonstrated that the addition of colour to the displays of that information is totally redundant in all instances. In my slides I showed several instrument panels which include colour, and the point I made was that the three pilots that were the subject of the talk had demonstrated repeatedly throughout their careers that they were able to access that information reliably and repeatedly without necessarily having the ability to name the colours present in the display. This is a different proposition from one where they might fail to detect the various zones represented by the different colours, for instance in a weather radar display. It is the information that is important, and that determines behaviour, not the naming of colours. Further, the task of making the judgment that a particular pilot does or does not display the skills and knowledge required to fly safely falls most appropriately in the lap of flying instructors and examiners, not in the office of medicos or optometrists.
Finally, though case presentations involving only three pilots does not constitute conclusive evidence, we have now built a sizable population of colour defective pilots who have no operational restrictions whatsoever, and the size of that population is now assuming a statistically significant group from which valid evidence can be deduced. As Ausdoc may or may not know, there are now other threads out there discussing this matter, and I am heartened by the shift in thinking that is being expressed among aeromedical people on this topic. It is ultimately going to be decided by the courts, and nowhere moreso than in Australia, where our legal system offers independent judicial review. It is going to be ALL ABOUT EVIDENCE, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 28th Sep 2012, 08:06
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If we are going to start discussing statistics, remember that a certain European authority unilaterally implemented a new Colour Vision test (and still uses it, despite it not being approved by EASA), from a very small sample study of persons and without any formal clinical testing or safety studies.

Having discussed it with persons involved in full-time medical research studies I feel assured that a sample of the size used would not be acceptable for mainstream medicine and the thought of implementing a medical procedure that was not first subjected to any form of clinical testing or safety risk assessment is absurd.

Then again, there is always the 'God complex'.
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Old 28th Sep 2012, 12:31
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Originally Posted by windforce
Has anyone informed EASA about this?

The CAD test is not approved and its use for EASA medicals ...... is just in contravention of MED.B.75.C
I say again.........."Then again, there is always the 'God complex'."
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Old 29th Sep 2012, 12:08
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for 2close, and windforce,

can you update me, i noticed that there was a caption saying that the cad test is not approved by easa and yet its on the vision requirements for medicals, whats going on...
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Old 1st Oct 2012, 06:24
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As far as I can work out, the EASA "acceptable means of compliance" for Part Med are listed here:-
http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measure...bin%20crew.pdf

No mention of the CAD test anywhere, from which I would deduce that the CAD is not an acceptable means of compliance. No idea what the CAA plan to do.
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Old 1st Oct 2012, 20:46
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I heard recently that Australia is considering the introduction of the CAD test to replace the tower signal light test. The reasoning given was the arguments against the current relevance of the tower signal test.

Last edited by ausdoc; 1st Oct 2012 at 20:46.
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