:(

[Spiderman29]

Hi,

Ever since I was 9 I've wanted to be a pilot in the RAF. I was always the healthy one in our family too...
Then when I was 13 I developed epilepsy (in fact, it may not ever have been epilepsy, we had low-level CO poisoning in our house so perhaps just normal seizures...), but either way I was diagnosed with it and given medication - which made it worse, initially.
Anyway it's all controlled now, I'm about to go for a motorbike license (yay!) and I'm due to come off the medication pretty soon (hooray).
I have all the attibutes that they want, I have an almost genius-level IQ, I'm friendly and sociable, determined, ambitious, a good leader and a good follower, everything. I guess my main weakness is having no tolerance at all for arrogant or violent/macho tosspots.
On top of all this, my interest in the career hasn't faded over time, it's just got stronger. I'm at college leaving age now, and I'm left with nowhere to go, nothing to do, and a feeling of emptiness. I applied to university to do psychology, but goddamn, I don't want to go at all, I'm not looking forward to it. It's just something to fill up three years of my pointless life with.
Usually nothing gets to me, I'm a hard nut to crack, but I can't stand this a moment longer. Sometimes my chest will feel heavy, or I'll feel physically ill, or I'll want to smash the living **** out of something, or I'll just sit there getting so frustrated I want to explode. I think about it every day without exception. I've had a hard life, all sorts of things have taken their toll on me, and now I feel it's time for me to have my big break. I'd spend the next decade fighting in sole pursuit of being given a chance at being a pilot, if it were possible (maybe it is?). It's inexplicable just how much I want to do this, and how much the fact (fact? :|) that I can't gets to me, regardless of me being one of those few that could really make it. I just think "why me", "why am I the one with that weird medical condition that stops you doing anything fun?", and "why couldn't I have been that Eurofighter pilot, like I dearly deserved to be?"
I even have an official endorsement from one of the most qualified epilepsy experts in the country saying I'm fit for the job. I haven't shown this to anyone yet but I doubt it will change anything a great deal.
It really angers me all the time - everything, how nothing goes my way, how I'm being denied my only dream because of something that in practice will not make any difference. Combined with all the other problems I've had in my life, it just feels like the world is completely against me; I have to fight for absolutely everything. Even stuff like A levels gets me down now, usually this stuff doesn't bother me, but now I realise I'll be fighting another year for them...but I'm bored of fighting now. It's always fighting...
I've had the last five years to think of alternatives, but I have not found a single one that I would be at all contented with. I'll always be dreaming of what I should have had.
I don't know why I posted this, I can just never get it off my mind and I try and offload it in a healthy and productive manner as opposed to going ballistic at everyone for everything. My mum once described me as a "boiling cauldron of anger".
Help, please

[Hay Ewe]

Mate,

I can, to an extent, understand your story, I got to the end of A-levels (year 12) and didnt know what to do.

I had family pushing me to the Army and RAF (Officer and Pilot) (12 years later I now know why). I also had a place to do Yacht and Power Craft design at Southampton and Oceanography at Plymouth but I didnt want to do any of those.

I grew up on a farm, loved sailing (did a couple of the RORC series) and was dead bored with schooling / education so I took a year out. i had a couple of lucky breaks that included fumbling around with aircraft in southern Africa, some sking in Canada and plenty more farm work, I deicided that I wanted to be a pilot type.

I had a bit of money behind me so that helped (earned myself) and so I pitched up at the local flying school and started.

After a bit, I wondered if I would enjoy flying all the time, but a couple of events happend, all of which I made happen, I had another lucky break and got involved with a heavy maintenance organisation. (privatly owned - mainly boeing narrow body)

I loved it, I got to go home every night, forged a relation ship with the people I worked with and for me (as a person) it was much better than being a pilot type.

After a year, I was asked to set up my own department and actully be involved as a person and contribute something.

If you spend enough time on PPRUNE (this is your first post so maybe not yet) you will see a fair few posts from poeple asking Q's about what it is like and so on. read the reponses. they are from people who are already doing it.

Now, you are possibly thinking "whats this guy going on about?" well, I am just telling a little bit about my story, and what worked for me, I too thought that a pilot was the best but I found heavy maintenance, if you really are that good a clever then maybe you might make it to working on the line, (ummm smell the jet fuel!).

There is a lot more to aviation that just being a pilot.

Also, in australia, the fighter pilots types only fly about 30hrs a year in the aircraft, the rest of the time is in other aircraft. Dunno abouthte UK but they are cutting another two squadrons? you want to be a part of that?

Hay Ewe, pass me a spanner

[Non Normal]

It might sound like a silly suggestion, but have you thought of speaking to a counsellor or a psychologist about your frustration? It might just help with how you feel.

[Chippik]

Spiderman
I myself havent had an easy life (school life) I was told by my guidance teacher in front of other parents at a parents evening that "you'll never be a pilot", but it is something that I really wanted to do so I did. I started my PPL @16 and got a job to help bankroll it and when I was 19 I gained my ppl. Now I fly a chipmunk and have plans to put my application forward to the airforce very soon and it doesnt matter to me if I dont get in. I will be dissapointed sure but there are other flying careers out there eg cropdusting etc all involve hard work but itll pay off with a rewarding career .
My advice therefore is make it happen dont wait around for chances they may not come. If you really dont want to go to uni then dont and do what you want to do. Speak to other pilots, they can offer you good sound advice and even better it doesn't cost you anything (hence your post)
good luck for the future and i hope this helps

[redsnail]

Have you actually gone through the RAF process yet?
Have you attempted to get a Class 1 medical? (Civilian).
If you haven't then you are telling yourself no before they have said yes.

A mate of mine in Oz was about to start his job as a flying instructor after going through the whole rigmarole of getting his CPL/IR and instructor rating. CASA rang him up and grounded him. Reason, migraines. Why they issued him with his class 1 in the first place is a mystery. He hadn't had one in 2 years but they didn't care. He was told you have to be migraine free for another 2 years and then they'd reconsider. He took a job with Qantas as an adult apprentice. 18 months into that, he has a motorbike crash and he then spends the next 2 months in the brain trauma ward. Licence? You've got to be kidding.
He gets his job back, recovers enough to get his drivers' lic back and I believe he's got his PPL back.
He's now accepted that he won't get his CPL back.

Life sucks at times but it's better than the alternative. If the above haven't said NO then continue. If they do say NO and won't budge then you'd better find something else to do before throwing a fortune down the drain.

[TheStormyPetrel]

You have told us that are smart - so you can choose a career, pursue it and make enough money to fly for pleasure, rather than as a career.

I know this sounds simplistic, but it is an option, and if you are determined, you might just find there are 2 pleasures in your life, flying (recreationally) and whatever career you choose, whether psychology or another career.

Good point from redsnail - find out if you really will miss out.

But if you aren't eligible, you aren't the only person to be disappointed at not being able to pursue your chosen career. Sometimes it's for medical reasons (especially mil flying) but other times it's academic performance not being up to the minimum etc. Both are frustrating, both are hard to fight.

You do have alternatives though, and if you drop your bundle, you really will make it difficult to achieve your dreams. I also think you should consider seeking professional help, as this is obviously having quite an effect on you.

[Spiderman29]

Hey again,

That's cool Hay Ewe =)
It's great when things turn out good like that.

Nice one Chippik it's always good when you can triumph and do things others said you couldn't, it's like, "hah" . Good luck with that for sure.

I haven't gone through the RAF process no...if I ever do end up trying, I think I'll wait until I'm in a better position to do so and possibly when I'm off my tablets, though that isn't due to happen for another 15 months. I also failed to mention (as it didn't seem important in comparison) that I wear glasses, I was planning to get them lasered which I believe doesn't go on record...I'm sure there's ways of ensuring that is the case, either way. I've intentionally not had an eyetest in the last three years so that my eyesight seems less questionable/suspicious. I'll check out that Class 1 medical too, thanks

At least he got his PPL back does he still ride bikes? It is a fairly risky business it has to be said... :|
Sucks.

I agree that's a sensible idea Stormy, the idea of being paid to fly fighters appeals somewhat more than paying fair amounts to fly light aircraft, but yeah
Incidentally, how do you go about doing civilian aerobatic displays and such? I've been wondering that for a while.

And yep, I have thought about seeking professional help/counselling. In fact I've put in for a request for therapy regarding my fear of needles (I hate the damn things, they're evil...but anyway). Just not sure it would help, but I have kept it in mind yeah.

I will see if I can get that medical but seeing as I will probably get only one chance to make an impression...I'll have to time it well.
Problem is, I have nothing I want to do *except* go to uni - if I can't join the military then going to uni seems to be the only safe way to ensure I get a decent-ish future.

Thanks guys.

[2close]

Hi Spiderman,

I really don't want to douse your spirits but to be totally honest and realistic, I believe you will find that if you have been diagnosed with epilepsy, you will not be accepted into any branch of the UK armed forces, regardless of whether or not you take controlling medication. When I was serving I came across a few people that were medically discharged after developing epilepsy during service or it was found out they had experienced epileptic seizures prior to service and had failed to declare it (they were binned for the medical reason not the dishonesty).

You do, however, raise a question mark over the diagnosis. I reckon this should be your initial focus. Establish beyond any doubt whatsoever whether or not you have had epileptic seizures or whether the seizures were the result of other factors, e.g. CO poisoning, as you mentioned. If it is decided that you do / did not have epilepsy make sure you get consultants reports and that these are placed on your medical records. You may probably have to do this privately so get ready for the costs.

The next thing to do, assuming the military career is out of the picture, is to print off the JAA Class 1 Medical Visual Standards and trot off to your local optometrist and get him/her to verify that you meet the standards. Check Class 2 standards at the same time - at least then you'll know if you can fly for recreational purposes. I can recommend a good one in South Wales who is also a PPL. The link to the standards is below:

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/med/document.asp?groupid=211

Once you've done all of this, get on the telephone to CAA Medical Branch and talk to them. They are very helpful and will advise you properly.

I do know what medical hiccups can be like as I'm having a ding dong with the FAA at the moment over dizziness I experienced a few years back when taking shedloads of analgesics following a bad accident. Guess what the side effects of the meds were? Oh, yes, dizziness, nausea, visual disturbances, etc. all of which I had, and guess what happened when I came off the meds - yip, all the ugly side effects went away, but will they accept that, no! I'm having to go through specialist vestibular testing, which is taking a lot of time and, as I'm having to do it privately, is costing plenty of cash. It's a pain but they hold the trump cards and I've just got to go along with it, pay up and get the reports.

Hope this helps,

2close

[Northern Chique]

spider,

some pretty good advice and empathy from the folks....

I dont know if I can offer anything but here goes

life throws some pretty peculiar curve balls at folks and dammed if I know why... Like most people, Ive had some ups and downs and lived far from a percieved normal life, but as a result, Ive learnt very quickly to find and identify options. Make sure you investigate each as much as possible and never say never...

It also sounds as if you have some time on your hands. Why not get in and do some basic engineering study for a bit. Gawd knows you'll need it later anyhow and it will tie that excess time up, make you feel productive when you are back in a learning environment again.

Youve got a good case of the "Im not where I want to be frustration blues" happening there by the sounds of it. Now tell me if Ive got it wrong here, but youve just come out of an intensive learning environment, loaded to the hilt with assessments, and the whole school thing has come to an end. For alot of students, their whole purpose in life has been focused on school and a very small narrow pathway after school. If anything disrupts this plan, they are left feeling lost, unfocused, frustrated and badly done by. Theres only one person that can decide what you want and the thing is, while on the surface, something may not quite apeal, but give it a go and it may well take a life and a purpose of its own.

While I can understand your logic, covering or masking symptoms is not the way to go. Any implication that symptoms were hidden for any reason is problably going to have far worse implications than the statement of fact. I nearly didnt get my licence after annorexia and a bout of blood poisoning damaged my kidneys. I was scarely to death for weeks until the all clear finally came back in after being juggled around specialists and the medical practicioners (gawd knows why I got involved in the medical field later though.... I still havent figured it out, but I love it as much as flying, but its soooooo different).

Epilepsy is one of those groups of medical conditions that carries a stigma few other conditions do. Many people tend to assume any seizure is a result of epilesy when so many other causes have been researched. Specific cases such as childhood epilepsy may never reoccur past puberty and so on... so it will be upto your own specialist in conjunction with supporting evidence that with get you through. Just go with the recommendations and treat it as part of the deal, not as a case of lack of fairness or exclusion. Take each step and if frustration creeps up, get to the gym and stress it off. (I used to take the dog for a walk along the beach or go sit and growl at the horse - both the horse and the dog would just stick their face in mine ... animals are great levelers for some reason.)

Anyhow, all the best, just give it the best shot you can...

[visibility3miles]

A friend in college always wanted to be a fighter pilot, but his eyesight wasn't good enough. Consequently, he became an engineer instead, and helped design airplane systems.

Rather than pound your head against the wall about whatever it is that keeps you from your dream job, why not focus on what else would make you really happy in life?

If you have to be around jet planes, there's more than one way to do it.

[Spiderman29]

Thanks for the advice people.

I'll be looking at the medical standards and the diagnosis etc. I don't know what to think really, I'm feeling kinda trapped. But I guess any progress is good progress.
I'm not really the engineering type, I don't have the mind for it or inclination, it's just not me.

[BigGrecian]

In the RAF, as long as you can pass the EEG you should be able to get in (I'm not a Doctor, so can't confirm this - but have been through the medical etc to get where I am) but I would recommend telling them on the application you have had a history. The RAF won't accept a letter from anyone they haven't referred you to unfortunately though.
They can only say No, give it a shot you've got nothing to loose.

[Megaton]

Full disclosure is the only way forward. Even if you pass the EEG a history of epilepsy may count against you. I failed an EEG many years ago because of a blip which, at the time, was regarded as a predisposition to photo-epilepsy. Note that I had never had a fit not ever taken any medication but I was disbarred regardless. I now have a Class 1 and the consultant neurologist, who incidentally stopped me from flying many years ago, is now of the opinion that such blips are irrelevant. I was initially angry at having wasted many years but I've now got my act together and have a fATPL and will hopefully be working by the end of the year.

You do claim to be practically perfect in every way except that you cannot tolerate arrogant tosspots. Well, "I have all the attibutes that they want, I have an almost genius-level IQ, I'm friendly and sociable, determined, ambitious, a good leader and a good follower, everything" would, to some, sound a touch arrogant. Furthermore, nobody clearly "deserves" to be a Eurofighter pilot and I utterly fail to see how you can be so confident, or arrogant, to believe that you are obviously one of the few who could really make it.

Bottom line to all this is that nobody owes you a living and nobody "deserves" to be selected for Eurofighter. If you want I'll PM you with some facts about a mate who has had some serious bad luck which will put your story into perspective. Not everyone is cut out medically or temperamentally to join the RAF: you have to learn live with it and get on with life.

Go for a Class 1 and see what happens. But if you have eyesight issues as well it sounds like you were never going to have much luck in this direction anyway.

Good lcuk with whatever you decide.

[The Otter's Pocket]

Just be careful that if you wish to hard that you may get your dreams.
Many of my friends are Harrier Pilots and they go through exactly what you do. It may seem a little harsh but there are other views on life. I do really feel for you but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I trained to fly helicopters in the Army. After 3 years in Battalion I got through all the training and medicals only to be binned from the course like everybody else of my rank through government cut-backs. No matter how hard I pushed the firm is just to big and can push back harder.
You need to act smart, keep your cards near your chest. Just like keeping your medical to a later date until you are off the tablets.

I had a good friend in Battalion who was medically discharged for epilepsy. However get it checked out. They will not move the goal posts though. It is immensly frustrating I know. Don't expect empathy from them, they don't really give a hoot.
When I was infront of a board of 8 officers of similar rank, one blurted out that I was chopped because I had a degenerative disease. I nearly fainted and took myself off. I was later called back in and told that I had miss understood...It was my broken leg from 5 years earlier.
I resigned my Commission the following Monday. Life in the forces isn't all Beer and Skittles.
I have never been happier than I am now. Sept 11 stood in the way of a Commercial Airline job for a couple of years. However now I have my own business, money in the bank for the first time ever! ATPLs under raps, no broken leg and a future setting up my own business in aviation with my own aircraft.

What I am trying to say is there is more to life than the military and airlines.
I haven't got the good school results, my degree is a desmond, yet I have common sense and a huge amount of motivation.
Look at your problems in the face...make a plan...take a condor moment... and then kick your problems in the Bolloxs.

Life is 10% motivation and 90% luck, every percent helps.

I sincerely wish you the best...now make a plan.

[Spiderman29]

I'm not being arrogant, not at all, I'm not arrogant - I'm simply trying to paint a picture of myself, which is obviously helpful from all perspectives. And when I said I "deserve to be flying that Eurofighter", it was a broad claim, just how I feel more than what I think, if you see what I mean. And I was not claiming to be practically perfect either, I was simply saying I have the things they want (in my opinion). In the same light I'm not at all suited to being an accountant, a businessman or a mechanic amongst other things (building and fixing stuff drives me up the wall!). Different stuff for different people you know.
Only have to pass the EEG? Wow :o I'll have to look into that for sure. I *am* still on the medication, it has to be said, but with any luck I'll be off it within the next 15 months. The control this last year has been infinitely better than ever before, seems we have found the right stuff to fix the problem. My consultant thinks I'm kind of a success story in that regard.
Keeping my cards near my chest does indeed seem to be "the" key, as far as there may be any.
It's great that you're happy with + successful having your own business and such something I could never do.
I'll just have to see what gives I guess, ultimately I'll probably end up being a paramedic but I really don't want to give up any time soon. I had a particularly powerful dream lastnight, it was quite odd but basically I went in a spacecraft with people I know (who in this dream were astronauts) and, looking out of the window, I was so happy I cried. It was so vivid that it seemed entirely real. I wasn't too happy when I woke up after that one with a day at college ahead of me I can tell you
They don't seem to give too much of a hoot, you're right. Hell, I even wrote a letter to Geoff Hoon once and I never got so much as a reply, not even from one of his minions.
I'm trying to make a plan, but it seems like a right drag when the only plans around involve stuff you don't want to do

[Megaton]

"Keeping your cards close to your chest" sounds very similar to with-holding information and will land you in trouble sooner or later. In the Armed Forces, commisioned officers are expected to demonstrate integrity and honesty and this sort of behaviour is regarded extremely poorly. Furthermore, military flying requires individuals who can analyse their performance in a self-critical, unbiased fashion; do you think you possess these attributes?

[Spiderman29]

It's not withholding information as such...with the exception of covering up the fact that I would have had laser eye surgery. I've heard that a number of people do this, but more importantly, it's a silly and irrelevant rule that, from my perspective, is designed only to eliminate people from the large pool of potential pilots - don't they laser pilots in the USAF to 20/10 as standard procedure, I believe they do? If the Armed Forces were held accountable to discrimination acts and such, this would probably be seen as entirely unacceptable and disallowed. (Why is a Hercules pilot not allowed to wear glasses, but a marines sniper in the desert is? It doesn't make any operational sense.)
There is not really any other information that I could withhold even if I wanted to. My version of "keeping my cards close to my chest" is not making any rash moves and finding the right time to try my luck and so forth - not over-extending myself. It's not really about lying...it's about trying to prove my worth to people who have a "talk to the hand" attitude. Like, when you are arguing/debating, the key is to have a range of arguments and not use them all at once - so every argument given you can counter with another, until you exhaust their supply. Whereas if you lay all your arguments/cards on the table at once, you're left with not a leg to stand on. Kinda like that
I can criticise myself in an unbiased fashion, I have no trouble doing that...it's great fun to joke about for a start
But...yeah. If I don't think I'm capable of something or a certain responsibility or such I'll make it quite known, I don't like being out of my depth. Don't really have any examples to give, but I have no problem with criticising myself. Am I waffling? Dunno...but I'm really quite a feminine person in many ways, I admit when and where I'm wrong (and ask for directions!) with no problem at all, and see everything in life as an opportunity to learn something from what has happened.

[Non Normal]

Regulations are regulations and you need to disclose things where they are required by them, whether you feel that the regs about laser eye surgery, for instance, are fair (warranted, etc) or not. If you do not disclose information when it is required to be disclosed, that is not very different from lying.

[Megaton]

Hercules pilots can, and do, wear glasses. The problem is that if you need glasses at an early age, chances are that your eyes will deteriorate further with the advancing years. And you cannot decide which bits of the regulations you consider silly or irrelevant. I would hazard a guess that you're probably not qualified to make those assessments. RAF is looking for stable, extroverts who understand the concept of military discipline. It does not need officers who think they can pick and choose the regulations that suits them.

[Spiderman29]

*Everyone*'s eyes deteriorate as they age, it's a fact of life - in which case new glasses fix that problem.
You don't need a degree to see that there is no reason beyond pickiness that people without perfect natural eyesight should not be able to become pilots - especially as, as you say, they often end up wearing them eventually anyway. Whereas, on the other hand, glasses/lenses have a far greater impact on an infantryman in the field - but that's allowed...bank balancing hmm.
Plus, eyesight deteriorating at a young age is usually an adolescent thing, and stops when you have reached adulthood (until the problem resurfaces in the mid-40s, as it does for everyone). They're excluding 20% of the demographic just with this one rule that will not in any way prevent the pilot from doing his/her job - in no other line of work, whether people's lives depend on it or not, would this be allowed.
It's very similar to the case where an otherwise fine candidate was turned away because he was too tall for fast jets, but not too tall for other aircraft. Where's the sense in that?
If it was such a problem, then, they would kick the pilots out whose eyesight deteriorates..but that's obviously not the case. They get their glasses and they get on with the job exactly as they did before. Not to mention that there is no evidence for modern laser surgery techniques causing any complications later in life.
Also an objection to such a rule has nothing to do with extroversion or military discipline.