Collective Color Blindness Thread (PART 1)
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Hi,
I'd like to share my story with you and also need some advice.
I started flying in UK in 1997.I had color vision problem in my initial medical.Did the lantern in Gatwick and passed.Since then I am flying(in Eastern Europe).in my country you are requried to take an isihara test every renewal but it doesnt matter if you pass or fail because theres nothing called lantern here.(they show you only 2- 4 plates)
Now I am offered a dream job in Dubai.I had the same problem during pre-employment medical.I sent them my lantern result in Gatwick but they didnt accept.So I did another one in Amsterdam and passed.(But this one was much harder.What I think is the lights were reflected from a mirror in Amsterdam.So theres a reflection.And I am not sure if mirrors can reflect colors 100%.What I think is there should be a loss in reflection like in everything manmade.Anyway the guys in AMS were very helpful)
Now what I am worried is if they will require me to take a Lantern every renewal in Dubai.Because by means of color vision I am very relaxed in my current job.And I dont want to have problems in Dubai after flying 1 year happily and end jobless.
At the end of the day your medical depends on a Lantern test.There are a lot of people that passed a lantern and failed another lantern somewhereelse.
Another thing is about anomaloscopy.is there anybody passed the lantern and failed anomaloscopy or vice versa?
is it harder or easier to pass anomaloscopy?
Because I just want to take an anomaloscopy to secure myself before resigning from my current job.
Any ideas about the renewal regulations in Dubai?
Thanks
Thrustidle
I'd like to share my story with you and also need some advice.
I started flying in UK in 1997.I had color vision problem in my initial medical.Did the lantern in Gatwick and passed.Since then I am flying(in Eastern Europe).in my country you are requried to take an isihara test every renewal but it doesnt matter if you pass or fail because theres nothing called lantern here.(they show you only 2- 4 plates)
Now I am offered a dream job in Dubai.I had the same problem during pre-employment medical.I sent them my lantern result in Gatwick but they didnt accept.So I did another one in Amsterdam and passed.(But this one was much harder.What I think is the lights were reflected from a mirror in Amsterdam.So theres a reflection.And I am not sure if mirrors can reflect colors 100%.What I think is there should be a loss in reflection like in everything manmade.Anyway the guys in AMS were very helpful)
Now what I am worried is if they will require me to take a Lantern every renewal in Dubai.Because by means of color vision I am very relaxed in my current job.And I dont want to have problems in Dubai after flying 1 year happily and end jobless.
At the end of the day your medical depends on a Lantern test.There are a lot of people that passed a lantern and failed another lantern somewhereelse.
Another thing is about anomaloscopy.is there anybody passed the lantern and failed anomaloscopy or vice versa?
is it harder or easier to pass anomaloscopy?
Because I just want to take an anomaloscopy to secure myself before resigning from my current job.
Any ideas about the renewal regulations in Dubai?
Thanks
Thrustidle
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Moses said:
"The Farnsworth Lantern I would suspect is more aviation/practical than the Holmes Wright - but I wonder how both compares to the real flying environment?"
Frankly the Holmes Wright test is a complete farce - at least in the way the CAA administers it at Gatwick. I'm one of those people that has no actual problems with colour vision in real life, only when doing colour vision tests, and having failed the Ishihara plate test I went for a lantern test.
The test commenced in a windowless room, in fluorescent light. As soon as I got one red/green combination wrong, that was the test finished - they stop on the spot and go no further (despite you having paid 28 quid for a whole test).
The only restriction on my pilot's licence is that I'm not allowed to fly at night because of my colour vision deficiency. I have an IMC rating, so I can fly in cloud (in the UK, at least), I just can't fly at night.
I'm allowed to fly VMC in the day, even though I'm officially unable to tell the difference between a red light and a green light being shone at me by an ATCO (actually in real life I can see the difference, with no problem). Yet I'm not allowed to fly at night even though the JAA/CAA's official test has never actually shown whether or not I'm able to tell the difference between colours at night (again, in real life I can see the difference - I've been out at night with my instructor several times just for the fun of it and the light thing is easy). All the CAA knows is that I'm unable to see tiny pinpricks of light from the far end of a room in fluorescent light - hardly an environment I'm likely to encounter in the sky.
D.
"The Farnsworth Lantern I would suspect is more aviation/practical than the Holmes Wright - but I wonder how both compares to the real flying environment?"
Frankly the Holmes Wright test is a complete farce - at least in the way the CAA administers it at Gatwick. I'm one of those people that has no actual problems with colour vision in real life, only when doing colour vision tests, and having failed the Ishihara plate test I went for a lantern test.
The test commenced in a windowless room, in fluorescent light. As soon as I got one red/green combination wrong, that was the test finished - they stop on the spot and go no further (despite you having paid 28 quid for a whole test).
The only restriction on my pilot's licence is that I'm not allowed to fly at night because of my colour vision deficiency. I have an IMC rating, so I can fly in cloud (in the UK, at least), I just can't fly at night.
I'm allowed to fly VMC in the day, even though I'm officially unable to tell the difference between a red light and a green light being shone at me by an ATCO (actually in real life I can see the difference, with no problem). Yet I'm not allowed to fly at night even though the JAA/CAA's official test has never actually shown whether or not I'm able to tell the difference between colours at night (again, in real life I can see the difference - I've been out at night with my instructor several times just for the fun of it and the light thing is easy). All the CAA knows is that I'm unable to see tiny pinpricks of light from the far end of a room in fluorescent light - hardly an environment I'm likely to encounter in the sky.
D.
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dscartwright
finally someone I can talk with.
Why do we understand the problem and JAA/CAA not?
They are the experts aren't they??
Falant, Holmes etc. are not practical. In real life you will never see the lights like they show you. If the visibility or cloud base is too poor you are prohibited to land the aircraft and you must divert!
The say that you must indentify the runway, cockpit and tower signals correctly. If you tell them that you are able to do that, they won't believe you.
It is the same as a traffic light! why can I drive a car a bus or truck?? because they show you pure red and pure green.
only someone who suffers achromatopsie (black/white) can't distinquish these colours.
In aviation it is axactly the same but JAA thinks different
I don't know what the future brings but don't give up!
cheers
finally someone I can talk with.
Why do we understand the problem and JAA/CAA not?
They are the experts aren't they??
Falant, Holmes etc. are not practical. In real life you will never see the lights like they show you. If the visibility or cloud base is too poor you are prohibited to land the aircraft and you must divert!
The say that you must indentify the runway, cockpit and tower signals correctly. If you tell them that you are able to do that, they won't believe you.
It is the same as a traffic light! why can I drive a car a bus or truck?? because they show you pure red and pure green.
only someone who suffers achromatopsie (black/white) can't distinquish these colours.
In aviation it is axactly the same but JAA thinks different
I don't know what the future brings but don't give up!
cheers
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Here you go:
Fliegerärztliche Untersuchungsstelle
des Deutschen Zentrums für
Luft- und Raumfahrt
Linder Höhe
D-51170 Köln
Tel: 02203-6013368
Fax: 02203-67665
e-mail: [email protected]
Fliegerärztliche Untersuchungsstelle
des Deutschen Zentrums für
Luft- und Raumfahrt
Linder Höhe
D-51170 Köln
Tel: 02203-6013368
Fax: 02203-67665
e-mail: [email protected]
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As an instructor I conducted simulator and line checks on a pilot who performed brilliantly. And it came as a shock to me when he was grounded due to colour blindness. Some things in aviation just do not make sense. But I guess the system tends to lean towards worst case scenario, which may not be such a bad thing.
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Its quite rare for someone to be grounded due to colourvision. If your colourblind then your colourblind for life and theres nothing you can do about it. If you are able to pass the initial medical then as far as I know thats the only time colour vision is tested.
Do you have any more information about exactly why he was grounded? Would make for interesting reading.
Do you have any more information about exactly why he was grounded? Would make for interesting reading.
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Probably already mentioned by someone, but...
If I fail a lantern test in an extended examination in one JAA member state, are the results communicated to the rest of JAA members?
Thank you.
If I fail a lantern test in an extended examination in one JAA member state, are the results communicated to the rest of JAA members?
Thank you.
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It seems that there is a few mis-understandings in the CAA and AME's
I know that I have a colour deficiency after failing the lantern tests at Gatwick few years back but told I could still get a class 2 only flying during day & in VFR in VMC. So I start training for my PPL and get to the stage of obtaining my initial medical. I told the AME that i had the lantern tests done to make him aware of the facts. He said that he needed to talk to the CAA regarding what he had to write on the forms and he would post it to me. So about a month after my inital exam I get a letter from the AME saying that he had been in contact with the CAA and it told me that i could not obtain ANY JAA medical certificate!!
So i got in contact with the CAA making them aware of the situation. A week later i got a phonecall from the CAA telling me that i could indeed get a class 2 with the VFR/VMC restrictions. They said they would get a new form from the AME to be posted to the CAA then sent to me! over 2 months after the initial exam i am STILL waiting for the certificate!!
Jus wondered if this had happened to anyone else and has not challenged it?
Flyboy
edited - change spelling
I know that I have a colour deficiency after failing the lantern tests at Gatwick few years back but told I could still get a class 2 only flying during day & in VFR in VMC. So I start training for my PPL and get to the stage of obtaining my initial medical. I told the AME that i had the lantern tests done to make him aware of the facts. He said that he needed to talk to the CAA regarding what he had to write on the forms and he would post it to me. So about a month after my inital exam I get a letter from the AME saying that he had been in contact with the CAA and it told me that i could not obtain ANY JAA medical certificate!!
So i got in contact with the CAA making them aware of the situation. A week later i got a phonecall from the CAA telling me that i could indeed get a class 2 with the VFR/VMC restrictions. They said they would get a new form from the AME to be posted to the CAA then sent to me! over 2 months after the initial exam i am STILL waiting for the certificate!!
Jus wondered if this had happened to anyone else and has not challenged it?
Flyboy
edited - change spelling
Last edited by Flyboy543; 21st Feb 2005 at 12:25.
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Was reading the CAA Medical Committee news today and came across this from the November meeting:
I was quite surprised to see it as it means that at least some people are thinking about relaxing standards even if it wasn't accepted, which is a steep in the right direction I guess.
I am slightly concerned about what the international review of colourvision is, as far as I am aware it is to make sure that the testing for colourvision is standardised across the JAA. Does anyone know if this will affect those of us with a Class 1/2 having passed a lantern test?
A proposal to relax the private pilot colour vision standard, based on a different pass/criteria on the Nagel anomaloscope (a German colour vision test) was rejected. This decision was reached on the basis that colour vision standards are currently under international review and that it would not improve harmonisation across JAA member states.
I am slightly concerned about what the international review of colourvision is, as far as I am aware it is to make sure that the testing for colourvision is standardised across the JAA. Does anyone know if this will affect those of us with a Class 1/2 having passed a lantern test?
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Have read the above with much interest as i am supposedly colour deficient. Desperate to apply to Air Services as an ATC. Does anyone know if the practical test is available to ATC applicants?
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Sorry strewf, not sure what NATS says about colour vision, you'll have to ask them.
For the wannabees here, I went to the Flyer Professional training show at heathrow today and had a chat with Dr Sally Evans, shes the head of the Aeromedical section. She gave a really good talk about the class 1. I spoke to her after the talk about colourvision and she said that they agreed that they thought the current situation just isn't accetable and that alot more research needs to be done to see how important colours are and said that the CAA were actively reseaching this in hopes to lower the colourvision standards as it is one of the most common reason for people failing the class 1. She also stated that those of us with Class 1 medical which was gained with lanter tests will still be vaild when these changes occur and so won't affect us.
Again it sounds like things are slowly moving in the right direction....
For the wannabees here, I went to the Flyer Professional training show at heathrow today and had a chat with Dr Sally Evans, shes the head of the Aeromedical section. She gave a really good talk about the class 1. I spoke to her after the talk about colourvision and she said that they agreed that they thought the current situation just isn't accetable and that alot more research needs to be done to see how important colours are and said that the CAA were actively reseaching this in hopes to lower the colourvision standards as it is one of the most common reason for people failing the class 1. She also stated that those of us with Class 1 medical which was gained with lanter tests will still be vaild when these changes occur and so won't affect us.
Again it sounds like things are slowly moving in the right direction....
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The CAA is working in a project with the ICAO together and the German Association Colours in Cockpit was told that the results are due beginning of 2005, so they should be released pretty soon.
Good news to hear that the lantern test will be valid even when they change the system, I just passed in Amsterdam the Holmes Wright test and I just applied for Lufthansa and don't want to be kicked because of my colour vision problem.
Good news to hear that the lantern test will be valid even when they change the system, I just passed in Amsterdam the Holmes Wright test and I just applied for Lufthansa and don't want to be kicked because of my colour vision problem.
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Does anyone know if there is a time limit for the Ishihara plates (CAA). I find that I can sometimes get the number if I stare at the pattern for about 10 seconds. Also, for the CAA class 1, how many plates do they show you and what % do you have to get right?
cheers
cheers
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With all my Medicals I had, they turned the page after 5 seconds or they marked it as an error after 5 seconds.
But maybe you get a doctor who doesn't count the seconds, however a chance to get one like that, is almost impossible, especially in an AMC.
But maybe you get a doctor who doesn't count the seconds, however a chance to get one like that, is almost impossible, especially in an AMC.
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Strewf,
If you complete a CASA class 1 medical (you can book in for one any time you choose) and fail the Isihara test, as I suspect you already have, you can go straight ahead an ask to do the practical lantern test. If passed, this will give you a class 1 medical. Once you have this, I can't see why you cannot produce this to Airservices and gain an ATC licence at the completion of training. ATC licence applicant onlt require a class 4 medical as far as I'm aware and a class 1 would cover you for this.
I personnally, failed the Isihara (miserably), then the Farnsworth (FALANT) and finally passed the "Practical Lantern test" which was a case of sitting in a dark room facing a mirror, whilst identifying a series of either white or red light combinations. I am now a Boeing captain in a major airline as a result.
Dr Arthur Pape in Geelong is a very good person to speak to if you have any problems or otherwise feel free to PM or email me.
Good luck.
Yon Garde.
If you complete a CASA class 1 medical (you can book in for one any time you choose) and fail the Isihara test, as I suspect you already have, you can go straight ahead an ask to do the practical lantern test. If passed, this will give you a class 1 medical. Once you have this, I can't see why you cannot produce this to Airservices and gain an ATC licence at the completion of training. ATC licence applicant onlt require a class 4 medical as far as I'm aware and a class 1 would cover you for this.
I personnally, failed the Isihara (miserably), then the Farnsworth (FALANT) and finally passed the "Practical Lantern test" which was a case of sitting in a dark room facing a mirror, whilst identifying a series of either white or red light combinations. I am now a Boeing captain in a major airline as a result.
Dr Arthur Pape in Geelong is a very good person to speak to if you have any problems or otherwise feel free to PM or email me.
Good luck.
Yon Garde.
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CAA Position is illogical and unfair
Brief history of my very frustrating experience with CAA follows - this shows the illogical and daft reactionary attitude to this issue.
1989 - Gain FAA License in USA and fly at night for 18 hours with no problem
1994 ish - Convert US license to UK and complete UK night rating in UK - UK night rating issued ! (based on US medical) - paid fee.
Ask CAA what happens when UK medical needed ? (logical but dumb question I now know) - advised to sit back down and undertake UK medical - take lantern test !!! - FAIL - advised that I will have a DAY VFR only restriction added to my soon to be issued UK medical (AND NO I CAN'T HAVE A REFUND FOR THE NOW DEFUNCT NIGHT RATING FEE OF £25). Very Pi?£$%ED OFF NOW.
Explain that this is all very illogical, extremely unfair and quite honestly extremely daft ! Tough luck.
Didn't give up the battle and carried on flying and gaining experience, wrote many letters to CAA top brass to no avail.
Decided to gain commercial and instructor rating, "SORRY you need a class 1 medical for JAR, but you can't have one with a colour vision prob " - But I know of instructors who have colour vision prob ? "Ah but they have UK CAA licenses not JAR, tell you what come to Gatwick before end of June (2 days away) and we will issue you a CAA class 2 medical with night restriction and then you can inherit GRANDFATHER rights for JAR medical" - confused yet ??? Are you telling me that today I can be an instructor but in a couple of days time that is no longer possible due to a beareaucratic change? "Yes". Anybody remember Reggie and sunshine deserts ?
Stick with me on this one as it gets better...... Now have very unique JAR class 1 with day only restriction - gain commercial license and instructors rating - Now eligible for IR rating due to CPL even though others with night vision problem cannot gain IR ??? - CAA now getting pissed off with the illogical situation and having heard that others are gaining unrestricted JAR CLASS 1 medicals from other countries decide that it would be a jolly good idea to transfer restrictions from my medical to my license.
Current situation after spending lots of money on CPL/Instructor etc
UK CPL/Instructor but restricted to daytime only, no public transport, UK airspace only, UK aircraft only.
OK so why am I more dangerous if I fly in another country, in another countries Cessna?, why can't I do public transport during daytime only? "you might be under commercial pressure to fly after dark" (not if my employer doesn't do night flights)
Now that I have got this 15 year nightmare off my chest I feel much better - Don't hold your breath waiting for old duffers in grey suits to realise that this is a farce and is not related to safety but merely power and dogma.
FAA attitude = No problem (passed tower signal light test and issued a waiver) - "fly what you like when you like"
I will now stop banging my head against a very large brick wall and go with the more enlightened system, save money and fulfil my true potential. Would dearly love to gain UK IR but if I cannot fly for a UK commercial operator then I will put the £10k to better use.
Moral of the story (from somebody with hard won experience) - DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOR CAA !
P.S. Any good lawyers out there who represent AOPA or other interested parties who would like to use my experience as a test case to challenge the current laws - any decent lawyer should be able to demonstrate an illogical and reactive system of rulemaking on the hoof.
1989 - Gain FAA License in USA and fly at night for 18 hours with no problem
1994 ish - Convert US license to UK and complete UK night rating in UK - UK night rating issued ! (based on US medical) - paid fee.
Ask CAA what happens when UK medical needed ? (logical but dumb question I now know) - advised to sit back down and undertake UK medical - take lantern test !!! - FAIL - advised that I will have a DAY VFR only restriction added to my soon to be issued UK medical (AND NO I CAN'T HAVE A REFUND FOR THE NOW DEFUNCT NIGHT RATING FEE OF £25). Very Pi?£$%ED OFF NOW.
Explain that this is all very illogical, extremely unfair and quite honestly extremely daft ! Tough luck.
Didn't give up the battle and carried on flying and gaining experience, wrote many letters to CAA top brass to no avail.
Decided to gain commercial and instructor rating, "SORRY you need a class 1 medical for JAR, but you can't have one with a colour vision prob " - But I know of instructors who have colour vision prob ? "Ah but they have UK CAA licenses not JAR, tell you what come to Gatwick before end of June (2 days away) and we will issue you a CAA class 2 medical with night restriction and then you can inherit GRANDFATHER rights for JAR medical" - confused yet ??? Are you telling me that today I can be an instructor but in a couple of days time that is no longer possible due to a beareaucratic change? "Yes". Anybody remember Reggie and sunshine deserts ?
Stick with me on this one as it gets better...... Now have very unique JAR class 1 with day only restriction - gain commercial license and instructors rating - Now eligible for IR rating due to CPL even though others with night vision problem cannot gain IR ??? - CAA now getting pissed off with the illogical situation and having heard that others are gaining unrestricted JAR CLASS 1 medicals from other countries decide that it would be a jolly good idea to transfer restrictions from my medical to my license.
Current situation after spending lots of money on CPL/Instructor etc
UK CPL/Instructor but restricted to daytime only, no public transport, UK airspace only, UK aircraft only.
OK so why am I more dangerous if I fly in another country, in another countries Cessna?, why can't I do public transport during daytime only? "you might be under commercial pressure to fly after dark" (not if my employer doesn't do night flights)
Now that I have got this 15 year nightmare off my chest I feel much better - Don't hold your breath waiting for old duffers in grey suits to realise that this is a farce and is not related to safety but merely power and dogma.
FAA attitude = No problem (passed tower signal light test and issued a waiver) - "fly what you like when you like"
I will now stop banging my head against a very large brick wall and go with the more enlightened system, save money and fulfil my true potential. Would dearly love to gain UK IR but if I cannot fly for a UK commercial operator then I will put the £10k to better use.
Moral of the story (from somebody with hard won experience) - DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOR CAA !
P.S. Any good lawyers out there who represent AOPA or other interested parties who would like to use my experience as a test case to challenge the current laws - any decent lawyer should be able to demonstrate an illogical and reactive system of rulemaking on the hoof.