Wizz Air MPL - CTC
 

Received an email that Wizz Air will be speaking at the next CTC open day about their new MPL. Thoughts?

The going rate for CTC Airbus MPLs seems to be around £109,000 (easyJet, Virgin, Qatar) so I'd be surprised if this one is any cheaper.

I would also be surprised if there is any kind of sponsorship element on the part of the airline. Who knows though? Wizz Air are joining CTC at the Professional Flight Training Expo at Heathrow this Saturday if anybody feels the need to go and try and glean some more info.

MPL was invented by a German guy who thought he was smarter that anybody else and wanted to invent something different a brighter idea in his view something that never existed before. Here we go...! Take it or leave it.:ugh:

The latest batch of 12 Aer Lingus cadets that started this year are also MPL students.

I wonder how long Europe keeps moving in the direction of finding/coming up with ways of getting people into airliners with less and less hours, whilst the states is going the opposite way.

RedBullGaveMeWings hmmmm....

All talk and no experience it seems... The MPL is a great course and is the most relevant to airliner flying which is what 90% of pilots who graduate aim to do- with this being the case why not introduce multi pilot ops in the early stages of training and on jet simulators? In those 90 hours of flying real aircraft they will be at the same if not to a better standard than student taking the traditional route by the end.

And I'm guessing your aiming to be based in Europe when you get a job? Might I suggest that you save some of those 100 hours of "busy US airspace flying" for back in Europe as it will be a shock to to system.

Plastic787 it's a competency based course and they are continually assessed as well as having progress tests along the way. Its hard to compare the Single pilot MEIR exam and the final exam MPL students have to complete but its not easier. They have to do all the same things we had to do on our IR test but with failures and complex operational procedures along the way- I can see where your coming from thinking its easier as its multi crew but as they are assessed on this also they have to have effective CRM skills which can often go out the window in high work load situations if not trained properly, hence the reason why its introduced so early on.

Any way thats my 2 cents!

So I believe they will stop hiring F/Os after launching this programme... Great!

Only if they will find enough [very smart people] to pay for the MPL scheme...

I've just been confirmed that the WIZZAIR cadet pilot programme will be initially an Integrated ATPL and MPL from next year. Will be interesting to hear about the programme finance, anyone has a clue about costs?

No, they are releasing that in the coming weeks.

Just to clarify what is on offer from CTC and Wizz Air.

Pay £109k, work for Wizz earning €18k (£13k-basically UK minimum wage), live somewhere you have never heard of and can hardly point to on a map (not necessarily a bad place to live but not the UK near family etc), regularly waking up at 3am, -20C.

Would it ever be possible to pay £109k of debt off ever?

I understand that many budding pilots will proudly state that their love of flying is so strong that they would work for free! However upon returning to your base and then struggling to pay for a bus home you may feel it's not quite what you were expecting.

It seems like exploitation to me.

Also, as the Wizz Air requirement is only 500 hrs on aircraft (any) then it would probably be a much better option to complete modular training for a fraction of the cost. I also know that TCX recently recruited low hour NTR modular pilots for the 320/1.

RedBull - I think you are way off the mark. The cost of living may be cheaper in Eastern Europe; however, if you want to live by western standards you will find that accommodation of that standard has a high premium on it and as a result you have to pay a comparable sum regardless of location.

I think Wizz Air and CTC are directly to blame. They take advantage of someone willing to sign up to this scheme putting them in a difficult financial position. This directly affects flight safety, any pilot in this position will not be calling in sick to miss out on flight pay/salary.

Will they be well rested in suitable accommodation, well fed and in a fit state of mind to fly. With such huge financial pressures I'm sure you will agree it's questionable!

While I agree that paying 100+ k€ for CPL/MPL training is insane and should qualify one as mentally unfit to fly, you should be aware not everybody is/was lucky enough to land their first job at likes of BA, LH, AF, etc.

And while Wizz Air doesn't pay in gold, you don't need to put anything upfront for the type rating (compared to almost 30k€ in RYR) and you get to fly new A320s a lot (900h/year), which means your options to go somewhere else open significantly in couple of months/years. And as mentioned before, there is nowhere written that this is a commuting contract. If you want and you are able (time-wise and financially) to commute, fine - nobody will stop you.

Forgive me for saying this, but I think many people from UK have this condescending view - comparing capital cities of Eastern Europe to the likes of North Korea, Africa, etc. I would really like to know what "living by Western standards" means though. Please explain, so we can be enlightened as well.

I'm quite sure you could find a place like this in London or in any other large city in Western Europe.

So in the last 12 months (as in representing the latest trend) Ryanair, British Airways, Thomson, jet2, Monarch, easyJet and Thomas Cook have hired only cadets?

Although Wizz do not make you pay for the TR upfront your salary is reduced by around €1000 for 18-24 months (perhaps someone can confirm the exact details). This is a bit cheeky as Wizz get Airbus training credits included with their new aircraft and yet they will still insist on salary deduction.

So if you are on a LIT FO contract and were non type rated your salary would be €18k-€12k(€1000/month TR deduction)=€6k+sector pay.

This directly affects flight safety. With a salary this low no one will be willing to miss the opportunity to fly earning valuable sector pay when they are in fact sick/unfit to fly!

Please correct me if I am wrong but flight safety has to come first, if you agree with this MPL scheme, low salary and questionable employment practices then you are not considering flight safety at the forefront of you decisions.

Redbull - No one is forced to sign these contracts but Wizz have a duty to ensure high standards of flight safety. I am not convinced that the scenarios discussed provide enough of a guarantee that flight safety will not be compromised.

Poland is not the same as many other countries with Wizz bases.

In the end it's all about money for you but saw a lot of guys stating in this forum 'if you do it for the money than better stop now'; wherever you go, within your first years you won't make much.
Don't tell me that with BA, EZY, etc you make a fortune in the first years?

You talk about how little you get with this scheme but remember how much some pay to fly. You figure out what is better, go get a modular training (which is indeed a lot less than this wizz scheme), pay some TR, and when you see nobody wants you, you start P2F until you're out of money or probably someone will hire you. Or, embark any scheme you can, fly and make some money so you can live until you get some hours and you will be able to go for a better payed flying job. Do the maths and see what's better

As I see it, if you love it and want to do it, then go for it...you won't be able to save money in your first years but you'll be able to live, to get a rent, to buy food and go in holidays in the end that's the most important thing (at least for me) in life, to do what you love the most and to be able to live out of it. Most of our life we spend it at work so why not to be happy of what we are doing.

There are probably other better opportunities but, they are not for everyone. To get a loan for most of the schemes now, they require you to have a property in UK.

I read someone said, this scheme is no good for long term either? Why not? With time, you'll start making more many and if still not satisfied, what stops you from looking for another airline?

I see a lot of people against this scheme but I see no proper documented point as why is not a good one.

As for the living standards, lots of guys did/are doing bush flying, flew in the jungle just at some point to get a better life. They all have my respect for their willing to succeed and their courage. Don't tell me that Hungary, Poland or Romania is worse than those places.
It is a chance for someone who wants to fly but has no money, no support whatsoever..or someone who's not risking to pay for training without the guarantee of a job.

In the end it's all about flying...money you will make them if you want them and you're smart enough.

Maybe the name of the topic should be changed as I can see they are going to train you for CPL/ME/IR. And is not only with CTC.

The CEFA has launched the website, saw that they are going to do 2 phases online. How will that be?

Does anyone have experience with Martinair? Any feedback?

Thanks

Sorry for asking,

But i can't find a post related about a deal within CTC - RYANAIR which is very similar to this thread, any recent info about the the partnership within CTC and RYR?



Thanks.

They deduct 415eur/m for 3years after base release. Then after 3yrs you get back half. So 7500eur back in pocket after 3yrs.

wizzzzz
 

forget the poor salary, its the colour of the planes that worries me :uhoh:

Hi dudes,

I attended the CTC roadshow for Wizz Air, and tought it interesting to share the details.

Training will start in 14th of September, with application and selection in july.
Guess what everyone is interested about is the pricing: GBP 93,000 (EUR 128,000) for the full program, with a 7K deposit and the rest paid in 13 installments. The selection fee is GBP 245, also class 1 medical needs to be from an approved partner so according to them GBP 400. Food and personal insurance is not included in the price but everything else is - landing / testing fees, if you need more time in aircraft you get it for free, plane tickets to training facilities, accomodation etc.

The A320 Type Rating is included in the price. A guy asked about the starting salary, which they were unwilling to give out for some reason. They explained that its reasonable to pay back a loan within 5-7 years while not "starving to death", but all contracts are different so no exact numbers. They are working with banks to open up this kind of loan as its backed by a wizz job guarantee. The usual structure is pay less or nothing in the first 2 years and pay a higher amount later once you are SFO or Capt - then it wont hurt.

You become SFO in 1500 hrs (your 2nd year)
Capt. from 3500 hrs
possibly training capt. from 4500 hrs
Pay increase each 1K hrs flown from then on

You will fly about 850 hrs a year, usually on a 6/4 schedule.

Kinda fishy, because you are at the airlines mercy. Not sure if you know the terms of the employment before you sign up for the 93,000 GBP program, but according to them you are considered an employee from day 1 when you start training.

Salary starts about 2 weeks after you have graduated from CTC. They are looking for 28 trainees in 2015, and this is a 5 year program which means CTC will train several hundred Wizz pilots from scratch. According to Wizz they had to hire 200 pilots last year alone to meet the demand, and are expecting to increase this each year.

Another important thing is in case you start the training, but fail at some point and you have to drop out then all costs are refunded to you apart from the 7K deposit.

Good luck to all!

Intriguing post, certainly looks like the scheme has its merits but it seems very vague at the moment.More detail needed.

They're going to have to release it at some point, signing up for a 93,000 grand course without knowing the starting salary is obscene. They maybe just haven't finalised it.

If Wizzair are guaranteeing the loan (which I doubt), then the scheme becomes much more attractive.

Meanwhile the interest will be piling up. I'm no expert but I'd be looking to pay off as much debt as my salary allowed, not take a break until upgrading.

28 trainees with CTC, and probably 12 with CEFA. Wizz Air first said they are looking for up to 40 trainees in the first year. Also on the CEFA website it says they have the capacity to train 12 persons.

As for the Wizz Air acting as a guarantor, that is the idea of offering you that conditional contract of employment when you start your training, that way you can borrow the needed money. As previously said, they are still talking to the banks, more information will be released soon.

But indeed, you must know the salary first before signing any contract so you can plan if you can pay the money back from your salary or no.

Another important point is there will be assessments centers in Hungary, Poland, Romania and UK.

Wizzair will not ever guarantee the loan, that would be quite the treat, but they do guarantee a job after successful graduation or money back. Meaning a bank might just be able to finance this as you have a written guarantee to receive work and salary.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the reasoning that they must reveal the salary - from entry level on - in order to make a proper decision. If the flight training is an investment, then you need to know the returns as well.

They have shown a "typical" salary scheme today in Warsaw:

FO
€20k base, 36k total
SFO (from 1500h)
25k base, 45 total
CPT (from 3500h)
40k base, 81 total
Then, as mentioned, some increase every 1000h flown

Has anyone considering signing actually done any basic maths? The pay, and I use the term loosely, barely covers loan repayments. How would even the most enthusiastic applicant live, eat, travel to work etc? I disagree with those who term this slavery. Slaves are at least fed.

Anyone going for something like this is go with your eyes wide open. You know from to start what you are facing. Just use your calculator and do your maths... and yes, take into account 'the worst case scenario', that means to do your maths with the lower salary possible.

Take a loan of -120.000 € (few thousands more or less). If you have some funds which you will use to pay a part of your flight training, count on a loan of for example -100.000€. All goes well, flight training done and TR, flying and starting to get a salary. How much you will need to LIVE? If you get a salary of 2000€, half of that is for loan reapayments every months so you get 1000€ to live, for some years. Maybe in 5-7 years you can start to make your own money.

Everybody considering this, do your maths and consider your future.

Bank never losses, people do.

Jamesbond6, those are gross or net salaries?

I did not pay attention or it wasn't clear on the slide and nobody asked for this clarification later. It is both safe and sensible to assume those numbers are before tax.

Do the maths... Should be easy for you aspiring pilots:

128K loan, and 4% interest rate (I think this is reasonable, maybe even a bit on the lower side considering eastern europe). If you are lucky then maybe the interest rate is fixed for the entire period, since a time will come in the not too distant future where interest rates will rise... you dont want to be on the sucker end of a 100K plus loan with your interest rate doubling, believe me.

Back on topic:

128K loan, 4% interest annualy:

Initial deposit:€0.00
Loan payments:€146,967.01
Balloon payment at end:€0.00
Total payable:€146,967.01
84 monthly payments of:€1,749.61
Total interest:€18,967.01

This means, that if you want to repay your loan in 7 years you would need to pay €1,749.61 each and every month. The interest you will pay over 7 years equals €18,967.01.

If you want to pay back your loan in 6 years, then make this €2,002.58, but then you pay less interest obviously, "only" €16,186.01.

These are actually only simplified numbers, because you dont take the loan in one lump sum, but you also wont make any repayments until you start working (ca 2 years), all the while interest is accruing.

Lets take the salary side into consideration:

FO
€20k base, 36k total
SFO (from 1500h)
25k base, 45 total
CPT (from 3500h)
40k base, 81 total

You fly 850h a year. Meaning for the first year you will earn 36K total and you will have to pay 20 995 Euros as a loan repayment. The rest 16K is what remains for taxes and to live. I dont think this is doable. If your net is 30% less than your gross pay, then there will only remain around 5000 Euros for the whole first and most of the second year after repayment of the loan.

When you become SFO then 10 000 will remain ( your 3rd year most likely, it takes 22 months to reach 1500 hrs). From then on you will reach captain in a total of 48 months. By this time you have paid off about half of your loan, and if you earn 81K gross, with the usual 21K loan payment a year, then there remains 36K for living. At this point its quite easily done.

After 84 months you are officially student loan free, and can enjoy all the benefits of flying on a relatively high salary.

Of course the bank might understand this model, so they might offer you something along the lines of first 2 years is interest only: This means you would pay around 500 Euros a month, and the real repayment will start only when you are SFO. Thats kinda doable, but then you have to expect around 10 years until you repay your loan, which is in my opinion a long time. Especially if you are young and want kids etc.

Living the dream on 10,000 Euros a year. Just fyi, you can easily earn this much as an IT support guy on a helpdesk, without any qualifications. The downside is you can't fly the 'Bus.

Good luck!

Guys be realistic people are paying OAA/FTE + FR= 150000€ or even worst 140000 for working in Volotea (717)! We can do nothing!

You can go modular work you way and soon or later get it! Anyway, that is life!

Would be nice not to see insults anymore here. If you read the whole topic you only find 'idiot' 'dumb' 'stupid', etc. And you only have assumptions, as they did not releave any financial aspects yet.
This is to individuals to decide if it is a good shot or not based on a informed decision. If one decides to go for it then good luck, it doesn't mean he is an idiot.
I wish I could read here news and information one might need.

@Syntax Error

You should check your knowledge before you go accusing other people for mistakes!

1) the SFO's in Wizz have been given a RAISE in the sector pay, so indeed they make more money than just the Base Pay difference of 5.000€.

2) the pay back period for the TR is 3 years, not 15-18 months as you say.

3) taxation in many cases can be 0, especially for the starting FO salary.

4) in most bases you can live with less than 1.000€/month if you don't want a fancy life.

You really are a wise guy Syntax Error :ugh:

To begin with, I am neither "management" nor "CTC" (as you accuse me) and actually I am not trying to defend this programme.
I just like people to be accurate, especially when they try to teach other people lessons with an attitude!
Before beginning my flying career I went to the London School of Economics for my BA and Cranfield University for my MSc, while in between also got an MBA so, trust me, I know how to deal with numbers better than you!

1) You wrote:
This is YOUR first error, as you already admitted in your second post. SFO's have different sector pay.


2) You wrote:
One more mistake. You compare the SFO's standard sector pay to the FO's medium sector pay.
So the correct calculation is: FO 30x30 = 900 euros SFO 30x39= 1.170 euros
Therefore the difference between the two is 270 euros, not 180!
And, of course, this is really the worst case scenario. The difference gets even bigger in a more realistic sector mix.


3) You wrote:
You are wrong again. The pay back period is 36 months (so approximatelly 416 euros/month) BUT at the end of the bond period you get half of the money (7.500 euros) back in cash as a bonus. So in reality you have paid 208 euros/month for the TR. So I can't see how it is even worse, as per your claim :confused:


4) You wrote:
Not really mate. In most bases you can live with well below 1.000 euros/month but it all depends on the lifestyle you want.


5) You wrote:
Well, with a realistic sector mix (not always flying standard sectors, but also medium, long and XL) you need only around 36 sectors per month. This could happen in almost any base.


6) You wrote:
If you want to talk about the Greek economy or you need some private lessons on fiscal policy feel free to PM me since it is not interesting to the rest of the members.
However two quick words about how "the real world works":
A) Learn the difference between Tax and Interest Rate. If Greece would like something, that would be zero Interest Rates on the loans, not zero taxes (which makes no sense!)
B) As a Greek citizen if you work and live abroad you get a 100% tax exemption, provided you are taxed at source.


7) You wrote:
So next time, before trying to teach other people lessons and being disrespectful towards your colleagues, do your homework a bit more thoroughly... Einstein :D

Am I wrong in thinking that they wouldn't deduct money for type rating as we would have paid it ourselves to Ctc? Also wouldn't we receive a 69k bond over 7 years like the easy jet mpl?

I don't know if this will apply with an MPL scheme. The TR is part of the course, so you're not really doing it with Wizzair. Remember guys, the finance for this scheme hasn't been announced as yet. I'm not expecting it to be good, but there's no point arguing over something before the numbers are released!

People still thinking on getting a -150.000€ Loan on this conditions..

Be very careful everyone. Specially with the banks. We are all mature individuals here and yes we all can do maths pretty well (prior to embark on anything) but real life is usually different of what you though initially it would be like. Be very carefull.

I think this scheme could be a good opportunity to someone who can pay it without taking a loan from a bank. But getting in 150.000 debt with anyone it's not a good idea in any case... My opinion.

Family money
 

I need to work 17 hours as a waitress to pay for a PPL lesson! I don't know the life of the others but I want to help as much as I can to self fund my training! Of course parents will help a bit in my modular training but I will try to pay as much as I can!

Why am I saying that? Well my family have their own business and they put a hard work to run it properly! The money of your family is yours and deserves some respect, don't give it to FTE/OAA/CTC!

Go modular, pay half the price (or less) and join Ryanair or whatever!

Regards!

Relax guys... it isn't obligatory to join. If you want you can try if not keep calm and looking for better deal. We are still waiting for financial details but you know better and argue.

All the best and good luck.:ok: