I wouldn’t be at all surprised at jet2 bringing in apprentices now as it’s at zero risk to them. In fact the apprentices get paid significantly less for the jobs they do (eg. Flight planning) than the regular workers. If at the end of the term there’s no flying jobs available, the most likely outcome would be an extension of the ‘apprenticeship’.

Hi all, I´m new and I was looking for some infos about the new application for FR during the pandemic because I was thinking about it and I'm looking for some other details.


Contact Approach

Are the contract employment based on performance and business demand. Cadet´s performance 🤔 and business demand (=pandemic evolution)? What if the thing will go better? Will be the cadets hired with a third part agency? Any ideas or infos?

If I'm not wrong, this are identical to the old conditions before the intro of the bond because a friend of mine applied for FR and received a contract with condition similar to this with no job guarantee at the end of the TR, with the upfront payment of the TR and no fix base for about 6 months if I remember but it is up to every single person to accept or deny this "offer".

It not older than a couple of months and anoher one is still open, that 2 german airline was/are looking for pilot and to be honest the conditions were not so different apart from the TR to be paid.
Today ALL the airline which hire, are going to offer contract of six months and all the offer are based on the evolution of the pandemic (its clearly stated in every single application.
Obviously the moment is the worst one and every single airline is trying too survive but we all do not know in six months what is going to happen (we got the vaccine, the people could travel again) and if so all the industry will start to recover maybe continental traffic faster than intercontinental

If you compare the T&Cs and salaries between Europe and the USA you will see a massive difference. Now ask yourself, why is that?

Hi Everyone! I would like to get some help from those who started the TR course
 

I have received the training contract and I am required now to pay the training fee but it says 30,000.00€ excluding VAT. Does anyone know what it means? Maybe it’s going to be more than 30 000 later? I have my own company (LTD) and I would like to transfer the money from the company account to get an invoice issued so I could put it into my expenses. Do anyone know how does it work? Thank you for your answers in advance!

Generally if is 30k excluding VAT at the end it should be more than 30k.
In another thread there are this kind of infos regarding the new TR scheme.. "Cost - back then it was in the region of €26-28k however this could be offset against tax, so eventual cost came out in the region of €15-17k. Now it is €30k with no expenses allowed, so the actual cost to the individual has almost doubled"

Czibola

What does your ltd company do? Is it aviation/aircraft operation related? If not, how could you possibly count it as a genuine expense necessary for the operation of the company?

Contact Approach

If you are not earning a comparable salary, then I think you may already know the answer.

As m_w said, if ur company is flying / piloting related u will be able to deduct the TR from your profits. But ONLY in sucha a case, or if u change the profile of the company for such (i.e. u will be able to deduct it from future earnings as 737 pilot, being it in RYR or not). As for VAT, as a rule in the UE, professional training is exempt from VAT, so there should not be any on top. I know UK is not int the UE anymore, but their VAT regulations are pretty much the same as they were (with some exeptions concerning cross border transactions).

Czibola

I’ll start by saying that this forum is definitely not the best place to get concrete tax advice.

With regards to the TR and your limited company: the nature of your business it’s not relevant, as other posters have stated.

The rate of VAT in Ireland is back to 23%, so €30,000 becomes €36,900 ?

I’m amazed Ryanair dont charge even more. They could charge €100k for the rating under the current terms with no promise of a job and still get people showing up.

To my utter amazement people are showing up for day 1 at integrated flight schools a year into this aviation-destroying pandemic. It shows that the market for training isn't just price inelastic, it is demand inelastic too. Kids will pay any amount of money for even the slightest sniff of an instagram moment in a aircraft cockpit.

Good news for the new joiners, we had UK wide videoconference yesterday.

It was confirmed the number of cadets needed is between 600/700 and there will be no holding pool as such.

Every cadet will begin line training after type rating with no delay.

See you guys soon.

Isn't there any news for rated captains?

Or rated FO's? :8

I'm sorry Iome, but in what delusional world do you live in that this is good news?
In the video conference management confirmed that current staff WILL have to take part time/ UNpaid leave over autumn/winter because there won't be enough flights going around for current staff/ let alone cadets.

So if by good news you mean: there is a opportunity to pay 30K for a typerating/ linetraining, after which you will be put on unpaid leave till summer than sure, great news.
As always, RYR is not letting a good crisis go to waste and using corona as a final push to get labour cost to a new low in commercial aviation and reintroducing a pay 2 fly scheme.

I truly feel sorry for those in/just out of flight school with delusional ideas about being an airline pilot and the associated lifestyle. You will get a reality check real quick once you sign on with the Irish mafia.

Dox

In house CU's are only planned for late autumn/winter, with a huge backlog of those. So I don't expect RYR to take in DEC's for the next year/2 years. Unless maybe you want to pay them for the pleasure of pressing VNAV like the cadets, I'm sure they are willing to take you in.

Good luck!

You asked why LCCs want cadets despite the great number of unemployed experienced pilots out there? The previous couple of posts contain a big part of the answer. Because it's easy to give your own definition of "normalcy" to someone who doesn't know otherwise. Someone fresh out of flight school can obviously be made to believe that it's OK to make one pay for a TR and then send them on unpaid leave for 6-9 months. Why? Because he/she still hasn't seen anything different from that. Those are the very same people who are shocked to find out that other establishments provide their crews with accommodation at the company's expense when out of base and even with a free shuttle from the hotel to the airport.

speed13ird

Well how many SFO's with 6 years experience earn up to $250.000 a year? (in Europe)
Equally how many Captains with 10 years seniority earn between $350.000 - 450.000 a year (in Europe)?

How many SCCM earns up to $100.000 in Europe?

This is flying for US's most famous LoCost airline, SWA.

Europe / UK are shafted because of companies like RYR / Wizz, who represent the bottom pit of the gravy train, trying their best to make sure being airline pilot pays slightly more then packing shelves at Tesco. But be happy and smile as you get shafted.

6 years of experience or 6 years seniority in the company? Because SWA requires 2500h total and 1000h turbine PIC preferred (more or less mandatory, unless they are desperate for pilots). So it will take quite a while to get 1000h PIC, before one even meets the minimum requirement to join. Oh, and add the time and the cost of a 4-year degree to that.

Having a glance here, you can see that only 219 of their pilots are aged less than 40 (will be 65 in 2046 or later), so it's not like year 6 pilot is 25 - most likely it's double that age.

I bet if you are in the left seat of a European LCC by 25 on a 6-figure salary and invest the money right, you won't be far off from the average USA pilot - remember, not everyone makes it to the majors there at the age of 23, and a lot of people are stuck in regionals for life.

And at the end, it's all sticks and stones - they've got the right to live and work in the USA, most of us don't, so those jobs aren't accessible anyway.

I think those numbers are slightly outdated, I have full copy of the current TC's, which to be honest are pretty amazing (not the forget the 11% profit share bonus) but still in the end it's as you say sticks and stones, as us from Europe can't work there.

But the point I am trying to make is the fact that airlines in Europe / UK, have cheapened the profession, also in Europe before it used to be you needed 1000 - 1500 hours to even get a chance to get a jet job, then along came Ryanair and many others, who saw there was an opportunity to take advantage of eager pilots willing to do anything to get a job, including paying for their own training and working for peanuts. For those who say Europe does not have the possibility for this development, I say that is nonsense. When I first got into aviation that was the standard way, work as instructor for few years, get some hours, join a TP operator and get multi crew experience and 1000 - 1500 hours, and then straight to the big airlines. The ones who destroyed this natural development route was the likes of Ryanair. And Europe has been lucky because during this "trial" there was never a major accident, such as the Colgan Air accident, which lead to major changes in the US.

Add the cost of their training and period of low pay, and I still struggle to see it will end up equal.4 -5 years in the regionals, and you could get into a company like SWA, I am just using them as an example as they are LoCo and I have friends working there, and when comparing work packages, it is amazing to see the difference. Then again SWA has a very strong union, which is big part of their success. My friend who is there, is in his early 40's already with over 10 years in the LHS.

Having a limit of hours to join, example 1500 hours, would ensure protecting the industry and the TC's of the pilot profession, and with mandatory union membership for new joiners. Many might not see the advantage of union membership, specially new young pilots who when join think it's not of much use, until we have a situation like now with this current pandemic. We have seen companies do what they want, because there is a lack of unity within the company among the pilots, so in the end we are own worst enemies.

The previous "carrot" was that you would join and within 5 - 6 years you will be in the LHS, however this pandemic has changed this "structure" - new FO's joining are going to be exploited to the full on zero hour contracts, until the airlines manage to find some kind of sustainable recovery over the next few years. Equally there will be thousands of experienced FO's , in the bottle neck for upgrades. At one point we can reach a level where airlines will not be doing upgrades for several years, but of course they will continue to need "cheap" FO's who are willing to pay for their training and working for below liveable salary.

Before the pandemic there was an outlook of genuine short term shortage, companies where willing to do more to get flight crew, however now it has all be reset to probably the worst time ever in the industry, there will be man pilots not returning to the flight deck for many various reasons, some will have discovered life outside the Cockpit is not that bad, others simply will not be able to find a job and go out of currency. Because in reality, there are no new jobs out there available at the moment, that could not be filled by pilots who lost their livelihood the last 15 months.

1500h requirement in Europe would be practically impossible to achieve, as the GA market is nowhere large enough to sustain this. FAA 1500h rule applies to turboprop airliners (ATR, Dash 8, ...) as well, but even if we would forego this requirement, the number of turboprops in operation have been reducing in the past years and I don't see them coming back with large part of short-distance regional travel being replaced with high-speed train where this is feasible.

I bet there would also be an enormous push from nearly all airlines in Europe against this, particularly the ones that prefer to hire only tabular rasa pilots - when was the last time e.g. Lufthansa mainline hired anybody who didn't go thorugh their ab-initio flight training school?

100% union subscription sounds great, but you can't make it mandatory, according to current labour laws around Europe, as people are free to join a union... or not.

Regarding the FI route, all of you saying is good to go and become FI after finishing your CPL. My question to you guys are you happy paying €120k for training and be trained by unexperienced FI? You just can't see the bigger picture which is low training quality and potentially wrong airmanship mentality from the day one which will stay for the rest of the career. I had an option to go the FI route but I questioned my self if I was on the shoes of the trainee would it be fair. Most of the FI's they just fly to gain hours nothing personal just make my hours and who cares, if you choose the FI route you need to be passionate about the teaching and be patient. The moral of the above is don't be selfish. Happy landings.

Or don't overpay €120k for training, very little of which goes to the instructor, to get a short-cut to a RHS in a jet as an un-experienced FO - look at the bigger picture :ugh:

Polirised89

Seriously who pays 120k to become a pilot? I payed around 51k all included, even examiner fees, and If I had made some more thorough research I would have decreased the cost even more. During my training I flew with many instructors. Some experienced more some less. I didn't face any problem with anyone and all were properly trained. Having a pilot job today is something great, airliner or FI, it doesn't matter so long as you pay your rent and log some hours.

FlyingStone

Of course the airlines would not want the 1500 hour rule, it would not suit their pockets. But with the current amount of pilots looking for jobs in Europe, it would take many years before there would be need for new "cadets". There is flying to get these hours in Europe or outside Europe, but it demands a lot more effort and you need to be much more motivated to want to do this. It does not just depends on mum/dad's bank anymore, you actually need to want to achieve your goal by much hard work and making sacrifices. No longer depending on over paying the FTO who has an airline agreement, who all take their own little cuts of the massive amount students pay for their training. The integrated ones paying 120K or more, are more or less paying "double" of what it would cost if you did it modular. Everyone I know who did modular when I did it, eventually managed to get a job, but sure it took much more effort and work, but they reached their goals in the end anyway.

It's funny how this route used to work fine before, when it was not expected that your first job had to be on an A320 or 737.
This route would kill of the FTO's charging 120K for their corrupt integrated courses, trying to lock out everyone else doing modular route or their way to reach their career goals.

As for the complaint about "unexperienced FI's, what a load of nonsense, most of those FI's start of training PPL students, the ones doing CPL and IR / ME, would always have much more experience, hence your trainers would have more experience as you take different ratings.

I am going to be blunt, if you in these times go and pay £100K or more for an integrated flight course, you are showing serious lack of judgement. And these FTO's selling these courses should stop selling lies.

You can get all done in your own time for probably around £50K, and you have just as good chance to get a job when you have completed the course as anyone else, specially in a :mad: company like RYR.

I know a new Ryanair FO who did his type rating just before Covid hit (around Jan 2020). He was posted to Poland, did a few flights then was sent home. He has been home ever since, on no pay.

This highlights the issue. What Ryanair needs and wants are 2 different things.

Ryanair wants to have hundreds of pilots sitting waiting "ready to work" for the ramp up, but how the Pilots will survive until they really need them, they don't care about. It's great loads of readily trained pilots waiting, specially when they don't need to pay them anything.

Why would they care? Why is that Ryanair problem?
Those cadets are lucky to get to fly a 737 over some crappy metroliner

the guy I know has pretty "comfortable" parents who bankrolled his integrated training, he's pretty young, so I guess he can afford to live rent-free and "wait it out".

what a business.

Looks like RyanAir does have what they want. They do have pilots ready to work so what do they need then? Yes of course it's great that they don't pay them, RyanAir we know are ruthless. So fortunate that I never worked for them and never will. They provide stepping stones of a sort for a route to become an airline pilot, which many, for their sins, aspire to. No reason to knock them they just run a business, plenty of sharks in the business world.

Professional / Profession = a person engaged in a specified activity, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.

Stepping stone? Within European aviation, there is not much left regarding "stepping stones" Even the so called "major airlines" now have their own "low cost" airlines, or they have been redefining their TC's, pulling it downwards towards Ryanair / Wizz, so they can as they say be able to "compete" with the Low Cost operators.

Paying over 30,000 now for a TR, to sit and wait at home that you might get called for a duty within the next 3 years and you are not able to pay your loans or pay to live life seems like a bad deal for me. Then again if "bank of parents" are bank rolling you, you probably have not really grown up and learned about taking personal responsibility yet.

Please get your facts right and do a bit of research. You keep talking about random stuff which make no sense. I hope you are not a pilot as I wouldn't like to spend a single minute with you in a cockpit.

Which "facts" do you disagree with particularly?

It seems we are getting one step closer to the role of an FO being voluntary, the “reward” being flight hours that get you nearer your command.

Ryanair is no stepping stone, they are a huge success story, it will soon be one of the only major airlines in europe, and the largest at that. Where do you plan on stepping to? I am not aware of a single other “better” airline with even the hint of thinking about recruiting any time over the next few years. In the UK Virgin/BA will not need “off the street” pilot recruits for the best part of this decade. Between them they have over 1,000 pilots in priority return pools, no planned expansion above 2019 levels, and very very few age 65 retirements.

If you join Ryanair expect it to be your career airline. If you are ok with that, and the conditions that go with it then fill your boots. If you are not, then perhaps choose a different career.

BoeingLudo737

Not much substance from you is there? You poor sensitive snowflake soul. With your love for Ryanair's business model, you don't need to worry about sharing the cockpit with me. I don't belong to those who believe you should need to lower your expectations that much to follow your Magenta line.

Instead of constant ad hominem response, you should rather put some substance to your defence of this airline you love so much, I suspect you are afraid to reveal to much of your true colours if you did. Ryanair has gone from people believing it's a "stepping stone" to becoming your "Final Destination", and wait and see how many will be able to work until retirement age working full time for such companies. Bon voyage.

Basically the airline industry has turned into what the helicopter industry has been like for years

ie..

a) if you can afford to drop £120,000 on your training, and...
b) you are young (ie under 30), and...
c) you can afford to "wait it out", and...
d) be prepared to move anywhere, and
e) you can put up with anything....

... then you might have a career.

The pilots recently 'hired' and doing line training right now whilst current RYR pilots are home on unpaid leave will be on here complaining next year that they are home on unpaid leave, whilst new cadets are being hired and doing line training ..

So goes the circle of life.

No Ryanair pilot is home unpaid. Unless you are talking about the various contractors that enjoyed a reduced taxation and overall higher earnings. They are service providers, most of them despise unions and were happy to make more money than the regular guys.

Something along the line "you've made your bed, now lie in it"

Well, the guy I know has been at home for months on "flight pay only". ie no pay

The guy you know is probably a contractor then.