Older Wannabes
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Older Wannabes
I have been training now for over a year at one of the main flight training schools. Over the year I have noticed that the industry is steadily improving in terms of jobs available for young ATPL holders. The airlines donīt seem to have any interest whatsoever in even considering the older pilots training at this school. It leads me to think why are these people 35 and over even considering competing against these younger people who are obviously in a far better postion to land these first jobs. I suppose the old saying of "canīt teach an old dog new tricks" comes into play when they select these people.
Any thoughts???
Any thoughts???
An interesting question, crashandburn.
I suspect there are several reasons for this. The market currently has more pilots than vacancies so the companies will take the "cream" off the top. Don't worry, when the industry turns round (and I believe it will looking at past performance and current projections for air travel), the companies will start reverting to the "bums on seat" policy - i.e. if you have a licence we'll employ you!
Please remember that all companies are now looking at nothing but the bottom line. If you are older you are perceived to have more baggage (who knows, you might even have a family!) and may reach the point of no return (loss of licence due medical etc) before those who are younger. It is also perceived that you might have more difficulty completing training and/or reaching the required standard for command etc. All of this is, I believe, quite shortsighted but that is how most of the hierachy running the companies see things.
However what is more ominous is that it is presumed that younger staff are more likely to "toe the party line" and not "rock the boat" when it comes to things like pay and conditions and, dare I use the term, "worker rights"! If this is one of your first jobs in the employment market and you have spent lots of money getting your licences then you don't want to risk putting yourself in a position where your job is on the line. Perhaps if you are older you might have paid off a fair bit of the mortgage and even have a partner/wife who also is an earner. Obviously this will all depend on personal circumstances but I am sure you get my drift.
Older staff are more difficult to programme to adopt the company culture and all the other crazy "mission statements" that they all love to spout about these days!
Please do not think I am not on your side - I am! But this is just the way it is!
I suspect there are several reasons for this. The market currently has more pilots than vacancies so the companies will take the "cream" off the top. Don't worry, when the industry turns round (and I believe it will looking at past performance and current projections for air travel), the companies will start reverting to the "bums on seat" policy - i.e. if you have a licence we'll employ you!
Please remember that all companies are now looking at nothing but the bottom line. If you are older you are perceived to have more baggage (who knows, you might even have a family!) and may reach the point of no return (loss of licence due medical etc) before those who are younger. It is also perceived that you might have more difficulty completing training and/or reaching the required standard for command etc. All of this is, I believe, quite shortsighted but that is how most of the hierachy running the companies see things.
However what is more ominous is that it is presumed that younger staff are more likely to "toe the party line" and not "rock the boat" when it comes to things like pay and conditions and, dare I use the term, "worker rights"! If this is one of your first jobs in the employment market and you have spent lots of money getting your licences then you don't want to risk putting yourself in a position where your job is on the line. Perhaps if you are older you might have paid off a fair bit of the mortgage and even have a partner/wife who also is an earner. Obviously this will all depend on personal circumstances but I am sure you get my drift.
Older staff are more difficult to programme to adopt the company culture and all the other crazy "mission statements" that they all love to spout about these days!
Please do not think I am not on your side - I am! But this is just the way it is!
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Iīm a regular reader of pprune but not a regular contributor to this forum but this topic has led me to voice opinion on this subject. I agree with CrashandBurn that the newly qualified older pilots ie 35 and above to tend to struggle enormously with trying to cope with the job if they are successful in getting one in the first place. I have witnessed this in recent years in this profession as they donīt seem to have either the co ordination or mental capacity to keep up with the job. It makes me wonder why they waste all their money training with so little chance of getting a job in the end. I would rather work with the younger, enthusiastic and more capable pilots.
Just my thoughts!
Just my thoughts!
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Older Wannabes
Michaelknight,
Interesting comments.
I got my first flying job in my mid forties. Had no problem with the ground school, flight training or subsequent OPC's/LPC's. I fly a twin turbo-prop without an auto-pilot where handling and instrument flying skills are required. Isn't that what flying is about?
Perhaps you are referring to the ability of the older wannabe to cope with flying by numbers or being able to turn the right knob at the right time. When it all goes horribly wrong you need the skills to be able to fly the plane.
Interesting comments.
I got my first flying job in my mid forties. Had no problem with the ground school, flight training or subsequent OPC's/LPC's. I fly a twin turbo-prop without an auto-pilot where handling and instrument flying skills are required. Isn't that what flying is about?
Perhaps you are referring to the ability of the older wannabe to cope with flying by numbers or being able to turn the right knob at the right time. When it all goes horribly wrong you need the skills to be able to fly the plane.
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You lot are talking a load of BULL.
I have just got my FIRST jet job at the ripe old age of 35, and I did not get it because they felt sorry for me.
How many of you are flying heavy metal?
I see ageism is still strong.
I have just got my FIRST jet job at the ripe old age of 35, and I did not get it because they felt sorry for me.
How many of you are flying heavy metal?
I see ageism is still strong.
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Well done michealknight for that sweeping generalisation and load of old bull****.
How you or anyone can make such a statement applying to one entire section of the population is some sort is "ism" alright. Moronism perhaps?
How you or anyone can make such a statement applying to one entire section of the population is some sort is "ism" alright. Moronism perhaps?
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I'm getting the impression that michaelknight and others are perhaps a little afraid of the competition presented by the 35+ year old wannabe.
If it's true that older pilots "struggle enormously" with the demands of a new flying job, then: -
1. Why isn't this picked up during their selection?
2. Why do they not appear to "struggle enormously" in completing their CPL/IR flying training and ground studies?
In my own experience of completing the CPL/IR to licence issue: -
during the flying training, the older pilots performed no worse or no better on average than those in their teens or twenties. However, for the ground studies and written examinations, the older pilots in my course were on average better than the younger pilots. This was reflected in the examination results.
The older pilots seemed more prepared to put the work in, to fully understand a subject, rather than do the minumum necessary to get a pass mark.
If it's true that older pilots "struggle enormously" with the demands of a new flying job, then: -
1. Why isn't this picked up during their selection?
2. Why do they not appear to "struggle enormously" in completing their CPL/IR flying training and ground studies?
In my own experience of completing the CPL/IR to licence issue: -
during the flying training, the older pilots performed no worse or no better on average than those in their teens or twenties. However, for the ground studies and written examinations, the older pilots in my course were on average better than the younger pilots. This was reflected in the examination results.
The older pilots seemed more prepared to put the work in, to fully understand a subject, rather than do the minumum necessary to get a pass mark.
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They take the cream off the top first ?????
Since when did being young make you "the cream" ?
There will be as many useless 21 year old fATPL holders out there as there will be 40 year old ones. Equally there will be a few 21 and 40 y.o hot shots. You either have it or you don't.
As for not touching the older ones because they may have baggage like a family, last time I looked that was called discrimination akin to not employing a woman because she may get pregnant.
As has been said in other threads, there are pro's and cons on both age groups.
No I am not 21 or 40 - just somewhere in between
Since when did being young make you "the cream" ?
There will be as many useless 21 year old fATPL holders out there as there will be 40 year old ones. Equally there will be a few 21 and 40 y.o hot shots. You either have it or you don't.
As for not touching the older ones because they may have baggage like a family, last time I looked that was called discrimination akin to not employing a woman because she may get pregnant.
As has been said in other threads, there are pro's and cons on both age groups.
No I am not 21 or 40 - just somewhere in between
Last edited by Northern Highflyer; 7th Jul 2003 at 21:18.
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message for crashandburn.
I fully sympathise with you mate ... I am in the 35 - 40 bracket and as with a lot of others .. i qualified just the wrong side of 9/11.
What i didnt do was bury my head between my legs and put myself out to graze ... i aint ready for the scrap heap just yet.
I took my instructor rating and have not been out of flying since the day i qualified. I am now 1000 hours better off ... ok its only SEP but what the hell Im still flying and having fun .
The market is turning around and there will be jet jobs out there for the older wannabes like you and i .
Good luck mate and hope to see u in the pointy end soon.
I fully sympathise with you mate ... I am in the 35 - 40 bracket and as with a lot of others .. i qualified just the wrong side of 9/11.
What i didnt do was bury my head between my legs and put myself out to graze ... i aint ready for the scrap heap just yet.
I took my instructor rating and have not been out of flying since the day i qualified. I am now 1000 hours better off ... ok its only SEP but what the hell Im still flying and having fun .
The market is turning around and there will be jet jobs out there for the older wannabes like you and i .
Good luck mate and hope to see u in the pointy end soon.
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What makes anybody think that there aren't hundreds of younger wannabes struggling to get that first job?
Companies have 'profiles' that their hopefuls must fit. They run selection tests to find those best matched. The best and most enlightened companies have a basic minimum with plenty of tollerance available in the system so that they don't end up with everyone the same as that has been proved not to be the ideal (why do you think nature has such a wide diversity?)
As far as age profiles go, once again, and especially in a large employer it is undesireable to take on everyone of the same age bracket because at some point they will all retire together! Many of the more senior airlines have had this problem in the past and are going through it now (BA, Britannia etc.) and this has lead to a wider 'chunk' of age brackets to be looked at during selection. I know it's against the law to descriminate in any way, but it's not too hard for an employer to wriggle out of any accusations, what I am saying is that several are actively trying to mix up their demographic age profile.
Of course it is harder to get that first break the older you are, but you'll probably find it's just as hard when really young. Then again, it's really hard when you're right in the middle bracket because you're in there with so many others!
I think the most important thing is to have something that makes you stand out from the crowd that makes the employer think, wow, he's intersting, let's put him in the pile to interview. If you're older than many then stand out for having done more than them and relate it to the job you are applying for. What employers love is experience that can be related to their operation, even if it's from another field, and a good grasp and understanding of how you can apply it helps make up the gap.......
Good luck, both young and old.
PP
Companies have 'profiles' that their hopefuls must fit. They run selection tests to find those best matched. The best and most enlightened companies have a basic minimum with plenty of tollerance available in the system so that they don't end up with everyone the same as that has been proved not to be the ideal (why do you think nature has such a wide diversity?)
As far as age profiles go, once again, and especially in a large employer it is undesireable to take on everyone of the same age bracket because at some point they will all retire together! Many of the more senior airlines have had this problem in the past and are going through it now (BA, Britannia etc.) and this has lead to a wider 'chunk' of age brackets to be looked at during selection. I know it's against the law to descriminate in any way, but it's not too hard for an employer to wriggle out of any accusations, what I am saying is that several are actively trying to mix up their demographic age profile.
Of course it is harder to get that first break the older you are, but you'll probably find it's just as hard when really young. Then again, it's really hard when you're right in the middle bracket because you're in there with so many others!
I think the most important thing is to have something that makes you stand out from the crowd that makes the employer think, wow, he's intersting, let's put him in the pile to interview. If you're older than many then stand out for having done more than them and relate it to the job you are applying for. What employers love is experience that can be related to their operation, even if it's from another field, and a good grasp and understanding of how you can apply it helps make up the gap.......
Good luck, both young and old.
PP
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I think the most important thing is to have something that makes you stand out from the crowd that makes the employer think, wow, he's intersting, let's put him in the pile to interview. If you're older than many then stand out for having done more than them and relate it to the job you are applying for. What employers love is experience that can be related to their operation, even if it's from another field, and a good grasp and understanding of how you can apply it helps make up the gap.......
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Itīs not surprising the older wannabes are trying to defend themselves, why would an airline want to employ someone who can give only half the time a younger pilot has to offer and coming from people I know in one of the "main" flight training colleges the older crowd do struggle.
Also, thank you DcQuire for proving me right, maybe you should take spelling lessons before you learn to fly. Michael is not spelt "Micheal"
Happy job hunting old boys!!
Also, thank you DcQuire for proving me right, maybe you should take spelling lessons before you learn to fly. Michael is not spelt "Micheal"
Happy job hunting old boys!!
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Michael.
I am not sure if you are just deliberately stirring the pooh, but something to consider is "demographics"
No I am not 35 yet, I have a fair way to go, but I do think you ought to have a greater appreciation of your chosen subject matter before you make inflammatory remarks.
Remember that all on here are more than capable of spelling "arrogant ar5ehole."
I am not sure if you are just deliberately stirring the pooh, but something to consider is "demographics"
No I am not 35 yet, I have a fair way to go, but I do think you ought to have a greater appreciation of your chosen subject matter before you make inflammatory remarks.
Remember that all on here are more than capable of spelling "arrogant ar5ehole."
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michaelknight,
Not sure how me mispellin your name proves you right on any point actually (why did you then misspell mine and who the f*ck cares about spelling on an internet bulletin board anyway). But maybe I should just call you a childish little prat instead.
On the learning to fly side well now let me see. First 2 phases of my integrated fATPL flying completed within syllabus time here in Jerez (eh thatīs the first 118 hours with all single engine flying tests completed on time by the way), first set of ATPL exams completed first time and hopefully just about to polish off the second set this week. Next week the CPL. All at the ripe old age of 41. Now I know that age practically qualifies me as wheel chair bound in your little world. But no not here in a real life actual flying school with real life planes, instructors and students young and old. Oh yes and lots and lots of past pupils, young and old, who do now actually fly those big shiney things you see when mummy and daddy bring you to the airport.
If you are (just another feckin) pprune **** stirrer, youīll have to do a lot better than that me laddie. Attacking spelling is about as weak as it gets around here. Better still why not try a subject you actually know something about. Oh but hang on you know people (or is it one bloke called Dave you met down the pub) who work in a flying school. Well well done son but Iīm surrounded by about 50 professionals here who wouldnīt agree with your little chum.
Not sure how me mispellin your name proves you right on any point actually (why did you then misspell mine and who the f*ck cares about spelling on an internet bulletin board anyway). But maybe I should just call you a childish little prat instead.
On the learning to fly side well now let me see. First 2 phases of my integrated fATPL flying completed within syllabus time here in Jerez (eh thatīs the first 118 hours with all single engine flying tests completed on time by the way), first set of ATPL exams completed first time and hopefully just about to polish off the second set this week. Next week the CPL. All at the ripe old age of 41. Now I know that age practically qualifies me as wheel chair bound in your little world. But no not here in a real life actual flying school with real life planes, instructors and students young and old. Oh yes and lots and lots of past pupils, young and old, who do now actually fly those big shiney things you see when mummy and daddy bring you to the airport.
If you are (just another feckin) pprune **** stirrer, youīll have to do a lot better than that me laddie. Attacking spelling is about as weak as it gets around here. Better still why not try a subject you actually know something about. Oh but hang on you know people (or is it one bloke called Dave you met down the pub) who work in a flying school. Well well done son but Iīm surrounded by about 50 professionals here who wouldnīt agree with your little chum.
Last edited by D McQuire; 9th Jul 2003 at 00:09.
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Experience counts
Michael Knight,
Fortunately there are many people in the industry who don't think like you. I recently chatted to a Senior BA Captain on a flight who was involved with BA pilot selection. Happily he indicated that BA do not view age as a selection criteria at all up to 49yrs. He also expressed a view that an older candidate was often able to demonstrate greater maturity and bring more management experience onto the flight-deck, which is extremely important with all the emphasis on being a member of the team.
With crew retirement age likely to rise to 60, I see myself as a 34 year old wannabe who has the potential to work for 25 years as an airline pilot with the benefit to the airline of having funded my own training. Oh and 25 years in any company is plenty of time to reach the left hand seat and achieve a command.
Frankly I think I'd make a better pilot now than I would have done at 25 simply because I have so much experience of managing difficult situations/people and I'm certain there are more than a few airlines who recognise that.
Desk pilot
Fortunately there are many people in the industry who don't think like you. I recently chatted to a Senior BA Captain on a flight who was involved with BA pilot selection. Happily he indicated that BA do not view age as a selection criteria at all up to 49yrs. He also expressed a view that an older candidate was often able to demonstrate greater maturity and bring more management experience onto the flight-deck, which is extremely important with all the emphasis on being a member of the team.
With crew retirement age likely to rise to 60, I see myself as a 34 year old wannabe who has the potential to work for 25 years as an airline pilot with the benefit to the airline of having funded my own training. Oh and 25 years in any company is plenty of time to reach the left hand seat and achieve a command.
Frankly I think I'd make a better pilot now than I would have done at 25 simply because I have so much experience of managing difficult situations/people and I'm certain there are more than a few airlines who recognise that.
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I seem to be getting very negative replies in this forum. I am basing these opinions from my experience working in the airlines as a pilot and have in the past been directly involved in the recruiting process myself. Over the years I have noticed a pattern of younger low hour pilots landing the jobs ahead of the older candidates. I am just letting the older wannabes know how it has been in the past and I canīt see it changing in the near future.
D McQuire I have obviously hit a raw nerve with you. You come across as being an arrogant individual and I can tell you for a fact that this attitude will lessen your chances of getting a job even more than they are now. You call me a "**** stirrer" but at 41 you havenīt displayed too much maturity in your opinions in this forum. Where do you realisticly see yourself getting an airline job in the next couple of years?
D McQuire I have obviously hit a raw nerve with you. You come across as being an arrogant individual and I can tell you for a fact that this attitude will lessen your chances of getting a job even more than they are now. You call me a "**** stirrer" but at 41 you havenīt displayed too much maturity in your opinions in this forum. Where do you realisticly see yourself getting an airline job in the next couple of years?
Sorry, Michele Knight but a minor, almost insignificant spelling error crept in to your last post. Realisticly (sic) your credibility has disappeared down the poo hole. NOW NOB OFF!