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Coronavirus employment low on its way?

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Coronavirus employment low on its way?

Old 17th Mar 2020, 17:32
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by the1917 View Post
Hi jordon1703

I actually think you’re in a very fortunate position. Your situation sounds similar to mine in 2017/18 but I was ‘unlucky’ enough to have completed my ATPL’s, MEIR, CPL, APS MCC, TR, line training and a summer on the line for TCX before it disappeared. The net result for me was a huge financial reduction to my personal balance sheet for very little enjoyment or satisfaction.

This may come across as overly negative but a realistic view is often lacking in flight training circles. Granted everybody is different but from my own experience I would say that you’re currently at the most enjoyable stage of the ‘career’. After this point the game becomes very expensive and comes with significant sacrifices for your time, money and sanity.

The job of a low hour FO may be great for some, but I speak from experience when I say it is close to being a nightmare for others - myself included. A typical day in the office would start ridiculously early, after poor quality sleep, in a strange bed / hotel room which is paid from a low salary.

Due to the logistics of the job it is very difficult to be nutritious so processed food is the norm. Check-in is done in the most sterile of environments at the crew room. The captain arrives and spends the first 10 minutes using body language / verbals which create a clear hierarchy for further interaction that day (notable exceptions here, some people have excellent emotional intelligence).

Quickly down to the stand, walking at least half a metre behind said captain, to then spend the next 12 hours locked in a wardrobe with the bloke who’s always right about everything 100% of the time, even when he’s wrong. More processed food, dehydration and boredom follow. The captain will fart at regular intervals as he’s the boss, but you dare not.

You will spend the bulk of the day listening to war stories which typically involve superior crosswind landing skills, on his part, and you will learn the failings of all other FO’s at your base. As you approach ToD you try to brief the skipper who doesn’t really care what you say, as the descent, approach and landing will be done his way anyway. Unless you balls it up, at which point it is made clear that you did it your way.

The views are sometimes nice (a positive) but the general pressure of the job balances these pleasureable nano-seconds. At the end of the day you can turn your phone back on to find that your friends / family have been out for walks, to the pub and played cricket in the sun, as it’s Saturday. Thankfully your time with his highness has now finished so you download your roster to find out which exciting destination awaits you next. Unfortunately you’ve been called off standby to repeat today’s events tomorrow with your mate from today. Never mind a cold beer and a walk in the park will do the trick - but you need a clear head and early night so decide a microwave meal and bed would be wiser.

You will no doubt sense my cynicism at this stage! I’d like to say that a lot of this has been exaggerated to make the points, but no. The feeling during flight training was always ‘it will be OK when the next stage is done’. This doesn’t stop in the role, as every FO is ‘doing their time’ for command etc.

I would like to be fair in this assessment, as I do not love aviation like many do, nor was I blessed with particularly good hand flying skills or confidence in my own physical coordination in the cockpit. Another pilot will invariably see things through very different eyes.

Your current position of strength is a good thing imo. If the industry contracts I feel very sorry for many people, including low hour pilots who have grafted and sacrificed so much to be there. Whilst many more experienced pilots believe that low hour guys are incompetent imposters, I believe that you people often have the bottle and resilience to cope with a changing world of work. If you do nothing more than complete your ATPL’s you have been one of the lucky ones. A PPL, night rating and a long academic course are all great experiences and these will be diluted if you sink more time and money into ‘achieving’ the dream.

Maybe the market for new entrants will freeze for the short term, or for the long term, who knows. This would do you a massive favour.
You are so unfortunate. You chose the wrong job and you seem to really hate it but you have already spend tons of money in it. I feel really sorry for you. Also with the Captains. Wonder which airline you fly for, or it can be really like all cpts there a holes or that you are just not nice person to be with in the cockpit which as a result makes life in that small area not so pretty. For myself, I have been flying with not always the nicest captains, but always managed to have a decent cockpit environment.

My tip for you, start looking for a different career as you stated that you not have a big passion for aviation in the first place. To survive aviation lifestyle, you really need the passion for it and not hate it.

I work in aviation since 2014, and yes not everything is great, but I do not hate it.
P40Warhawk is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2020, 20:11
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: EU
Posts: 162
I think the1917 actually makes some good points, and we shouldn't bash him for expressing them. It's a nice change from the standard 'i'm 30 years old, I don't care about the recession, I don't care about never finding a job, I have a degree, I can afford to pay off my training loan for 20 years with nothing to show for it, I just don't want to regret it'

It's very hard to truly appreciate what this industry is about until you're fully committed and waist deep. This forum could use some honest introspection into the profession as well, to balance all the praise and glory posts. Yes, airline IFR flying can be boring on long sectors, waking up at 4am in the winter absolutely sucks, living abroad and commuting is a total pain and waste of time. The more honest we are with ourselves the better prepared the next generation of pilots will be.

Personally, 75% of captains and FO I know all say they love this job, they enjoy the salary and potential time off, but they would never ever do it again, and don't want their kids to get into it. And that's ok.
SeventhHeaven is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2020, 22:19
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: A Gaelic Country
Posts: 0
We’re just about to get a Captain from a well known Scandinavian airline join us as an FI flying spam cans.

I’ll be helping check him out. As a fellow FI I’m sure that his Ex11 & PFLs are up to standard....🙃😉

He’s needed though. We lost a lot to the airlines.

What goes around....but all the best, folks.

covec is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2020, 06:45
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,822
I have previously stated it might be a good idea to continue or even start your training to be ready in a couple of years but now (in true no sh*t Sherlock style ) I'd like to say that is of course no longer a good idea. You're looking at a minimum of 5 years right now for low experience pilot jobs to re-emerge across the entire world, possibly longer.

I've been preaching for years that a back up career in aviation is important but equally important is to practice that skill during your flying years by taking up part time opportunities and networking with those in that field. NB: It's easier than you think. For me it was luck that I fell into mine before I ever flew a jet. Later on, various redundancies and gaps in contract aviation employment enabled me to flip flop between the two roles. Turns out this awful luck was a blessing in disguise.

Right now, I am a very fortunate person to even have a flying job (no pay cut expected) but that could change very quickly. I'm ready to go back to my previous career in case.

Going forward no college or uni graduate should even consider this most fragile of careers without having a solid grounding in another field. Basically, you're asking for it if the only thing you've done prior to flying is to flip a burger or stack a shelf. A job should be something you enjoy doing but as the modern climate will testify it's also about food on the table. Sadly, the best job in the world doesn't come with much of a safety net. The vast majority of pilots I know right now cannot sustain the lifestyles they built up and a captain I know is starting work with Asda next week. Sure every industry is feeling the pinch but aviation will always suffer the biggest and deepest pain for any given disaster.

Globalisation is the reason behind aviation's success. It creates jobs, more opportunity. But it also makes the world more susceptible to danger, especially as the population grows with more and more bad variables coming into play. Sustained long term growth is therefore unlikely from here on. The bubble will always burst before it gets bigger than what it was at the beginning of the year.

One of my boys wants to fly when he grows older. And so I will try my absolute best to make sure he practices what I'm preaching.

All the best
Superpilot is online now  
Old 21st Mar 2020, 07:43
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Spain
Age: 40
Posts: 33
Very wise words Superpilot. I have seen too many young lives ruined by going “all-in” on flying as a career with absolutely no back-up skill set for when the chips are down.

Delta Airlines are now saying the industry that emerges from this crisis will be smaller than the one that entered it. Put simply there will be fewer pilot jobs than the peak we have just had. The shortage (if there ever was one) is over for now. There may be no jobs at entry level for many years.

If you haven’t invested too much money into flight training, walk away now. Skill up in something else non-aviation related and have a look back here in a couple of years.
Chief Willy is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2020, 08:50
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Norway
Posts: 37
I had to make a decision 4 months ago between a big reputed with nice marketing school OR going modular (less fancy, no uniform)...very glad I made the right choice. Going at my own pace, and will adjust according to when Market will show healthier signs (which hopefully before 4/5 years as mentioned above)
ced0802 is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2020, 09:33
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Mars
Posts: 52
I would like to share here the post I wrote in another thread:
This is my very personal opinion: despite this very difficult period, which will surely weaken many companies (as aviation is a very fragile toy), even though some other airlines might go to administration, with loads of pilots on the ground, there will always be for sure the need to fly.
Other companies may expand, or maybe others more will born, the sky won't be empty when this disaster will end.
Considering that is not easy to contain a virus when already spreaded all over the world, the real antidote which will take away the fear of being infected, and so others fears such as to travel, from people mind will be to find a vaccine.
Only then the world will go back to the normal.
Hogos is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2020, 19:00
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: London
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Hogos View Post
Other companies may expand, or maybe others more will born, the sky won't be empty when this disaster will end.
So you expect things to magically reset when this virus panic is over? Even if we are done with the virus by the end of 2020, the ramification would manifest for many many years. Defeating the virus is just the first basic hurdle, you have at least the following factors to take into account after that:
  1. People would have lost jobs, security and money and will hardly have extra cash to splash on flying
  2. Perceived threat and danger associated with traveling would remain, people will be thinking twice before going somewhere (especially long haul)
  3. Huge market over-saturation with unemployed qualified and current pilots due to multiple airlines going bust - many will be desperate and happy to "fly for food"
Pilot jobs prospects in a situation like that? Extremely bleak. Low hour pilot job prospects - I'd say around the same as hitting the jackpot in a lottery. I would give it 4-5 years before the situation more or less stabilises again.
wigbam is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2020, 19:55
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 437
I tend to be optimistic and to always encourage people to get into training, especially modular training, but what we're experiencing now is unprecedented. This week I've flown into two major EU airports and we were the only one in the air, only a few traffic in the air but that was it. Air France is parking their whole fleet and the two southerly runways at CDG have been closed to use them for storage. The same in CPH.

I agree with wigbam, this will take a few years to recover and it is probable that aviation won't ever be the same. Unfortunately, some pilots may not fly again.
Banana Joe is online now  
Old 21st Mar 2020, 21:20
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Mars
Posts: 52
People will need to travel not only for "vacations", but for works, for coming back home to their families.
40 years ago, only business man travelled around the world, now youngsters are going to the other side of the world just for delivering capuccinos.
It will take time, for sure, even the production of a vaccine.
But from that day people won't be scared anymore by knowing to be immune to the virus.

Of course it's an optimistic scenario, nobody knows what is gong to happen next.
We can only hope for the best.
Hogos is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2020, 19:00
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Mars
Posts: 18

Summary?
Mrpeewee is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2020, 19:22
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: A Gaelic Country
Posts: 0
Looks like me after a heavy night...wtf happened last night? And where am I?
covec is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2020, 20:37
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Transient
Posts: 7
M"guidance for the OP has been reinforced by your reply, thank you. I imagine that you are much less of a legend in your daily life than you are with your 4 gold bars."

You don't get it do you. I am but a cog in the machine helping it go around. No less no more. All l expect is lack of ego, application of effort and professionalism or something approximating that. I really don't need to spoon feed people and mollycoddle baby pilots.

Anyway it seems a moot point now as there is a large risk of our newer brethren being made redundant.
Douglas Bahada is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2020, 12:36
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Transient
Posts: 7
Aww shucks.
Douglas Bahada is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2020, 20:44
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 91
1917s bitterness is all down to the fact that he clearly didn’t research the job well enough to imagine what it was really like ....has nothing to do with covid or prospects.

As a captain once told me “ not all the xxxxs are in the left hand seat ...”

wise words indeed
Meester proach is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2020, 18:48
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by the1917 View Post
That is true meester proach, I didn’t appreciate what it was really like before joining the industry
And now here you are, filling our bandwidth with posts full of negativity because you failed to do your homework
Banana Joe is online now  
Old 3rd Apr 2020, 22:18
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Dakar, Bangladesh
Posts: 28
You lot are a bunch of dimwits! Seriously send a realistic perspective on this and not a load of crap - too much negativity..Yes we are all f”cked but it will recover within 4 years for sure. Don’t go scaring people anyway.

If I give full opinion I no doubt will be slaughtered anyway.

No go out The house and do your exercise as BoJo told you all. Don’t be keyboard warriors
Nineshsimbers is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2020, 08:21
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 437
No, I did not choose the wrong career and I am in a seniority list. Speak for yourself.

I saw your posting history and to make it worse you are quite young and deluded. It appears to me you burnt yourself with a pricey tagged scheme with a famous British operator that has gone bust before the pandemic. I know it is not nice to say it, but I hope you will never step in a flight deck ever again. For your own sake, and more importantly for the bloke that has to sit next to you for a working day.
Banana Joe is online now  
Old 12th Apr 2020, 02:22
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Posts: 705
Originally Posted by the1917 View Post
Hi jordon1703

I actually think you’re in a very fortunate position. Your situation sounds similar to mine several years ago but I was ‘unlucky’ enough to have completed my ATPL’s, MEIR, CPL, APS MCC, TR, line training and total boredom on the line before experiencing airline liquidation for the first time. The net result for me was a huge financial reduction to my personal balance sheet for very little enjoyment or satisfaction.

This may come across as overly negative but a realistic view is often lacking in flight training circles. Granted everybody is different but from my own experience I would say that you’re currently at the most enjoyable stage of the ‘career’. After this point the game becomes very expensive and comes with significant sacrifices for your time, money and sanity.

The job of a low hour FO may be great for some, but I speak from experience when I say it is close to being a nightmare for others - myself included. A typical day in the office would start ridiculously early, after poor quality sleep, in a strange bed / hotel room which is paid from a low salary.

Due to the logistics of the job it is very difficult to be nutritious so processed food is the norm. Check-in is done in the most sterile of environments at the crew room. The captain arrives and spends the first 10 minutes using body language / verbals which create a clear hierarchy for further interaction that day (notable exceptions here, some people have excellent emotional intelligence).

Quickly down to the stand, walking at least half a metre behind said captain, to then spend the next 12 hours locked in a wardrobe with the bloke who’s always right about everything 100% of the time, even when he’s wrong. More processed food, dehydration and boredom follow. The captain will fart at regular intervals as he’s the boss, but you dare not.

You will spend the bulk of the day listening to war stories which typically involve superior crosswind landing skills, on his part, and you will learn the failings of all other FO’s at your base. As you approach ToD you try to brief the skipper who doesn’t really care what you say, as the descent, approach and landing will be done his way anyway. Unless you balls it up, at which point it is made clear that you did it your way.

The views are sometimes nice (a positive) but the general pressure of the job balances these pleasureable nano-seconds. At the end of the day you can turn your phone back on to find that your friends / family have been out for walks, to the pub and played cricket in the sun, as it’s Saturday. Thankfully your time with his highness has now finished so you download your roster to find out which exciting destination awaits you next. Unfortunately you’ve been called off standby to repeat today’s events tomorrow with your mate from today. Never mind a cold beer and a walk in the park will do the trick - but you need a clear head and early night so decide a microwave meal and bed would be wiser.

You will no doubt sense my cynicism at this stage! I’d like to say that a lot of this has been exaggerated to make the points, but no. The feeling during flight training was always ‘it will be OK when the next stage is done’. This doesn’t stop in the role, as every FO is ‘doing their time’ for command etc.

I would like to be fair in this assessment, as I do not love aviation like many do, nor was I blessed with particularly good hand flying skills or confidence in my own physical coordination in the cockpit. Another pilot will invariably see things through very different eyes.

Your current position of strength is a good thing imo. If the industry contracts I feel very sorry for many people, including low hour pilots who have grafted and sacrificed so much to be there. Whilst many more experienced pilots believe that low hour guys are incompetent imposters, I believe that you people often have the bottle and resilience to cope with a changing world of work. If you do nothing more than complete your ATPL’s you have been one of the lucky ones. A PPL, night rating and a long academic course are all great experiences and these will be diluted if you sink more time and money into ‘achieving’ the dream.

Maybe the market for new entrants will freeze for the short term, or for the long term, who knows. This would do you a massive favour.
You sound like a real nightmare to fly with, what a poor attitude. I guess with that attitude you found yourself another career path.
truckflyer is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2020, 02:34
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Posts: 705
Originally Posted by the1917 View Post
You have the right to veto.

The aim of my posts is to be neither positive nor negative - just realistic. It is only realism that the prospective trainee needs before parting with hard-earned family money.
I believe that one line, tells me everything about you. Poor little millennial, who spent his mummies and daddies money to become a pilot, some of us worked 15 hour shifts to save enough money to take a flying lesson, and did not have Mums and Dads bank to sponsor us.

You seem like a real over-privileged knob, no wonder nobody liked you in the flight deck.

I mean that you are dumb enough to even write that, just shows how that you are out of touch with reality. I guess you worked hard for that that hard earned family money, did you?
Grow up and grow a pair, and stop being such a snowflake. I had my first flying lesson when I was 17, I completed my training and got my first airline job at the age of 42, in between that I had a great life doing loads of other stuff that I loved.

But I worked hard for my dream, and sure every day is not perfect, sure there are ups and downs, however most of what you are writing is pure nonsense and fabrication, just because you want somebody to fell sorry for you, well here is some advice, get over it!
I guess your inheritance have been reduced now, as you squandered it on flight training boo hoo.
truckflyer is offline  

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