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What ISN'T P2F?

Old 1st Sep 2015, 21:32
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What ISN'T P2F?

Can anyone tell me what exactly isn't P2F these days? If you go down the CTC route and spend close to 100000 then you may get an interview(extremely easy to pass) for EasyJet. After that you'll pay for your type rating. But because you're not "officially" paying for line training then does this qualify as P2F?

What about the guy who goes modular, spends about 40000 and has the exact same bit of paper at the end of it all as the integrated guy, and then spends another 40000 on a TR+LT scheme, with the chance of employment at the end. Is he any "worse" than the integrated CTC(or other) pilot? Modular route you can do it quickly and work in between. Integrated courses are slower and you can't be working, so you're left even more out of pocket. So in this case the modular who then signs up for P2F has a lot more money left in his pocket.

What about if you pursue being an FI? You still pay for your initial training and then your FI rating. The pay is really not great and with no turboprop or jet time you're still not especially attractive to any airlines. Get a job with Ryanair or Wizzair etc and you pay a fortune for your type rating. So in all seriousness, can anyone tell me a way to get into aviation these days that doesn't involve some form of P2F? I would really like to know. The Aer Lingus cadet scheme is about the only one I can think of!
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Old 2nd Sep 2015, 19:21
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So does CTC class as paying to fly any more than modular training and an official P2F scheme? The end result is the same amount of money has been spent to get in the RHS.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 08:41
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Pay-to-fly is pretty easy to define, it specifically involves the practice of paying for the privilege of occupying a pilot's seat while the aircraft is on a revenue flight with passengers. It's taking away paid work from another pilot. That's why it's bad.

So no, enrolling on a stupid expensive training course is not pay-to-fly. You're not causing another pilot to miss out on a salary by doing those things, you're only hurting yourself.

When people are paying for your piloting services, then you shouldn't be working for free or worse. That's when the line is crossed.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 11:18
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Fair comment. Just curious to know really if people who go down the CTC/OAA route are "looked down on" in the same way(at least on this forum) as those who go modular and then an official P2F scheme...the end result is a similar amount of cash spent to get in the RHS, whichever way you look at it.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 13:19
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Useless post,

Try to compare P2f with some really good training doesnt make any sense.

Please stop trying somehow justify P2f and try to get a decent job and more important...receive salary!!!!

Aloa
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 13:53
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"So no, enrolling on a stupid expensive training course is not pay-to-fly. "

If it was really that simple!

But somebody needs to put their business goggles on here, unfortunately most pilot's are not business men/women, and the above comment is at best very naive!

I guess a full transparency in who get's what in the +100.000 training is missing here, and why should they provide this.

Now as I am a business man (not me, but somebody who wants to make this business) , and not a "pilot" , I know there is a negative Stigma with P2F, so how can I camouflage my true intentions?

First I have an agreement with a training establishment, or I create one of those myself, then I have an agreement with an airline, where I will produce X amount of pilot's for them, at satisfactory standard for this airline.
There is a chance that the airline will pay me "finders" fee for every employee I provide them, or there is a chance that I pay them a certain amount to take my professionals.
This does depend on my business model, do I want to sell training with "guaranteed jobs" - regardless I do guarantee that I will provide X amount of newly trained professionals, and I do guarantee how much they will be paid.

Now I can calculate their training salary into the cost of my training.

As an example, I have a company where the average pay for Profession X is 2000 a month, however I will also provide you training so you are qualified for this Profession X, so I charge you 100.000 for the training.
However the training real cost price is only 40.000 because I have a good deal with training providers, as I provide them a stable amount of students every year. Now since I provide them 100 students every year, they give me the training cost at a discounted rate.

So in this case my profit seems to be 60.000 each student, however of this I might decide to use 24.000 for the first year as "pay" with the airline I have an agreement with. However the newly trained professional is not aware that I am actually using his OWN money to pay him his first year of salary.
In my example here the cost would be 66.000, and my profit would still be a staggering 34.000

If somebody can go privately modular and get their training done for 50.000, it will be possible to get each student average cost price much lower then this, if I provide a 20 integrated students to a much more cost efficient and cost conscious course.

So I do believe many of these courses that are provided with airline "job" is hidden P2F. It's obvious as the last I heard somebody paid 320 rating was 38.000 with an airline, while you can get this rating for around 18.000 Euros.

So yes for me this is the same as P2F, however your invoice does not read that you are paying for X amount of hours, but your own money is what is the basis for your pay.

This is very common practice in many other business, disguise the details of what the customer is actually paying for.

From a business aspect, the actual cost of an integrated pilot course should be less then a modular course
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 15:40
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Originally Posted by aloa326 View Post
Useless post,

Try to compare P2f with some really good training doesnt make any sense.

Please stop trying somehow justify P2f and try to get a decent job and more important...receive salary!!!!

Aloa
I'm not trying to justify anythjng. I went down the expensive training route and have a "decent job". I'm just curious as to the general view on what is and isn't p2f. To me expensive integrated vs cheaper modular then p2f really aren't any different. Interested to know if other people think the same or not.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 15:44
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Originally Posted by truckflyer View Post
"So no, enrolling on a stupid expensive training course is not pay-to-fly. "

If it was really that simple!

But somebody needs to put their business goggles on here, unfortunately most pilot's are not business men/women, and the above comment is at best very naive!

I guess a full transparency in who get's what in the +100.000 training is missing here, and why should they provide this.

Now as I am a business man (not me, but somebody who wants to make this business) , and not a "pilot" , I know there is a negative Stigma with P2F, so how can I camouflage my true intentions?

First I have an agreement with a training establishment, or I create one of those myself, then I have an agreement with an airline, where I will produce X amount of pilot's for them, at satisfactory standard for this airline.
There is a chance that the airline will pay me "finders" fee for every employee I provide them, or there is a chance that I pay them a certain amount to take my professionals.
This does depend on my business model, do I want to sell training with "guaranteed jobs" - regardless I do guarantee that I will provide X amount of newly trained professionals, and I do guarantee how much they will be paid.

Now I can calculate their training salary into the cost of my training.

As an example, I have a company where the average pay for Profession X is 2000 a month, however I will also provide you training so you are qualified for this Profession X, so I charge you 100.000 for the training.
However the training real cost price is only 40.000 because I have a good deal with training providers, as I provide them a stable amount of students every year. Now since I provide them 100 students every year, they give me the training cost at a discounted rate.

So in this case my profit seems to be 60.000 each student, however of this I might decide to use 24.000 for the first year as "pay" with the airline I have an agreement with. However the newly trained professional is not aware that I am actually using his OWN money to pay him his first year of salary.
In my example here the cost would be 66.000, and my profit would still be a staggering 34.000

If somebody can go privately modular and get their training done for 50.000, it will be possible to get each student average cost price much lower then this, if I provide a 20 integrated students to a much more cost efficient and cost conscious course.

So I do believe many of these courses that are provided with airline "job" is hidden P2F. It's obvious as the last I heard somebody paid 320 rating was 38.000 with an airline, while you can get this rating for around 18.000 Euros.

So yes for me this is the same as P2F, however your invoice does not read that you are paying for X amount of hours, but your own money is what is the basis for your pay.

This is very common practice in many other business, disguise the details of what the customer is actually paying for.

From a business aspect, the actual cost of an integrated pilot course should be less then a modular course
You just summed up exactly what I think perfectly in that post. I am neither for nor against it, nor condemning those who choose either route. But to my logic, it's all p2f in one way or another. Some people will struggle to accept this though.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 16:06
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I don't understand this Pay 2 Fly stuff.
At the end of the day, like it or not, type rating and line training are a part of training. Yes it would be better if the majority of the airlines paid for it... But it would also be better if airlines still paid for all of our training wouldn't it?!

If your intentions are to become an airline pilot then you are paying to fly from the moment you get a PPL in my opinion. You are paying for your training out of your own pocket. Nowadays airlines ask you to pay a training provider (them or an affiliated company) to train you to fly for them. Take Ryanair, yes the TR is expensive and some people are not even in a position to get a loan for it. But if you can afford it, you finish the TR and line training and get paid to work for an airline where you can earn an living and pay back your training loan.

This happens in other professions. My partner paid to go to university, then paid to do her PGCE to teach - this included costs of living in another city and working as a placement teacher with no salary. Only after paying for all her own degree and training over a period of 4 years was she in a position to be paid to work as a teacher - she now gets paid to go and teach but she pays her training loans off - is that a pay 2 teach scheme?

I have friends who became solicitors. They pay for their university fees. They also have to do an LPC course on top of their degree to get a job (10 grand). After that if they manage to get a job they only earn around 20k a year initially - and pay their training loans back through that wage. Pay 2 be a solicitor?

At the end of the day our industry is no different to any other. When a company can cut costs it will. Forcing potential employees to stump up their training costs is becoming more commonplace in most professions. The only difference is that out costs are substantially more than in other professions. It will never change now.
Even when BA started the future pilot programme you are still required to fund it.
I'm no rich kid with an axe to grind, or some bitter git. I have just finished my training, I am looking for a job and if I passed Ryanair selection for instance, I'm not 100% certain I could even get a TR loan for that sort of money. I just think these days this is the way it is and there's nothing we can do about it.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 19:53
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Sorry but a lot of wannabies and a lot of confusione
Ryan,Vueling and all the others courses linked to an airline are not pay to fly!!!!!

Pay to fli are programs not linked directly to an airline, you pay, for example 93000 euros!!!!!, for flying somewhere a jet(CRJ,A320 etc) without any salary for up to 1year!

Beside self sponsoring a TR, to join an airline still have to pass an hard selection then sign a labour contract, for the pay2fly the online thing you will sign is a loan for 10 years minimum.
Aloa
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 20:35
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The traditional P2F, you still need to pass selection and line checks/sim checks etc.

However it seems Left and Right brain on some guys here, have lost a connection!

Some of you need to take your pilot HAT OFF, and understand the various ways to disguise P2F, as P2F in the way of Eagle Jet seems to obvious!

There are many ways to skin a cat! Have an open mind!
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 22:32
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The bottom line is that where there is significant demand - there will be opportunists for making money. This is exactly the case here.

How much do you want that job or position - if you do and are unlucky the sadly you will have to pay.

If everyone stuck together and said No - then they couldn't charge!

Sadly humans will do what ever it takes to get one on another hence - a Blackfoot from the start.

I was told by someone high up - saying why should we pay these guys (pilots) more when they will work for free!

Which is true - if you don't respect yourself and your profession - why should anyone else!
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 05:31
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When considering training and investments in to gaining experience my advise would be always look at the bigger picture.

Prepare a spread sheet over 10 years

Cost of training, living expenses, line training or type ratings

Then input potential salary within the airlines

The bottom line at the end of the 10 year period is a significant profit in your favour.

Don't be fooled by what people tell you, there is no easy way or route to the RHS of a commercial airline, you will be checked and tested to a given standard set by the CAA if you can't make the grade you will not fly regardless of wether you paid to do it or not.

Look at the bigger picture when making choices plan where you might be in 5 to 10 years.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 14:53
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Originally Posted by truckflyer View Post
The traditional P2F, you still need to pass selection and line checks/sim checks etc.

However it seems Left and Right brain on some guys here, have lost a connection!

Some of you need to take your pilot HAT OFF, and understand the various ways to disguise P2F, as P2F in the way of Eagle Jet seems to obvious!

There are many ways to skin a cat! Have an open mind!
Sure....the assestment to fly for free after paying 100000euros, it's the same as during normal airline assestment.

Camon, its even ridicoulus talking here about comparing p2f with normal aviation career.

Stunning attitude for the wannabies....i am not surpised that aviation has reached this level.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 18:17
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Please can you explain exactly how modular training then out and out p2f scheme is different to CTC then an interview leading to a job with one of their partner airlines? CTC have a "selection" as well, but anyone who has been through it will be able to verify that it's not exactly the most challenging thing in the world. They both cost the same in the end. They both may or may not lead to continued employment after 500hrs. What about the CTC Wizz Air programme? Surely that's as much P2F as anything else? I'm not trying to defend or criticize any particular way, I just don't understand the view that some paths are superior to others. If you paid 100000 to get to be in the RHS by any route, then to me that means you paid to fly. I may be wrong though.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 20:19
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If you are paying a premium for your flight training, eg. CTC where the price is associated with an airline job, and the price is over-inflated it is no different than P2F!

It's just a matter of semantics how you define how the money is being divided.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 11:08
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Originally Posted by TheManFromThatPlace View Post
Please can you explain exactly how modular training then out and out p2f scheme is different to CTC then an interview leading to a job with one of their partner airlines? CTC have a "selection" as well, but anyone who has been through it will be able to verify that it's not exactly the most challenging thing in the world. They both cost the same in the end. They both may or may not lead to continued employment after 500hrs. What about the CTC Wizz Air programme? Surely that's as much P2F as anything else? I'm not trying to defend or criticize any particular way, I just don't understand the view that some paths are superior to others. If you paid 100000 to get to be in the RHS by any route, then to me that means you paid to fly. I may be wrong though.
Hi the Man;

Forget CTC for a moment.
You mentioned Wizzair, good company to work for and still acceptable conditions for the time being.
To join Wizz you is not mandatory join CTC, is enough send a CV throw the web and keep finger crossed to receive an invitation.
2 friends of mine joined Wizz in this way, so this is a classic example of NOT pay2fly...by the way in Wizz type rating is bonded and you will receive money from the first day of training.

I dont understand why the people are reducing aviation to CTC/p2fly...there are thousands way to start this career....not easy but find the way.

Aloa
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 11:16
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True. 300 hours and you can apply to Wizzair. Get your licence via the smaller schools for 40-50k. But bizarrely so many people will completely ignore this and apply to the CTC/Wizzair scheme for 100000+!
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 12:13
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Same - don't understand paying double for integrated and having the same license and options at the end. Unless you are tagged of course
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 21:55
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If you want to head to the airlines MPL is the way - not the modular route unless you are lucky....

Otherwise you will wait for years and loss of income (opportunity cost) of earning decent money will erode and cost you the same .....

You may not get there.......

Unless you can pay to fly!

A sad reality ......

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